Women should keep silent in the assembly?

[rational experiences]

Intelligence is to be human and motivated to survive. Natural instincts.

Natural is always first.

Natural a science observation said DNA human equal parents first were the same.parents of first human.

So we are all brothers and sisters.

Our parents first were also a brother and a sister.

Equals. No status or false preaching allowed hypocrites of self idolisation a teaching spiritual life with God.

Facts only.

Role play not real was chosen.

How to speak truths.

Science chosen about God. As laws.

Science then broke the laws said for science.

Status.

O God is held sealed stones and dusts.

Does not speak. Owned no words.

Space is empty does not speak owned no words.

Theism.

Man said space is a womb.
Woman womb owner had to be present for that theory observation to be unnaturally expressed.

Common sense natural innate says so.

No speaking.

The diction of ary said M13 a false science Mary 1000 M that words in sophism science is a cunning contrivance.

Accepted as logic. Written as advice.

Is not a mother.

Holy mother not a theism sophism had held the immaculate body Christ the balances.

Balance. The immaculate 12 and the sacrificed immaculate 12.

Holy mother of Christ.

The womb that had re birthed baby Jesus as science thesis had been abominated historically.

Was now in time a holy wh ore.

The baby saviour is reborn every one year said science.

In a silent night. A holy night.

An unspoken truth owning no spoken word.

The truth.

 

[MonkeyFire]

Silence is the secret to pleasure, and authority is a conformist.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

What it really comes down to is this. A women is just as likely or unlikely as any man to understand spiritual things. To say that she must ask her husband at home assumes the opposite wrongly.

I guess it all boils down to interpretation.

I believe the reason that women - at least married women - were instructed to do this was for the benefit of their husbands.

God wants husbands to fulfill their roles as spiritual instructors for their wives and children.

God wants wives to lean on their husbands in this regard.

I mean - when my wife and I do this - we have some of the best conversations ever.

She understands the material - but as a man and her husband - I can offer her a different perspective which edifies her.

And my hearing her perspective and input edifies me.

God doesn't want anyone - not even an Apostle - to take that dialogue away from a husband and wife.

So - while at a worship service - allow the Priesthood leaders to officiate - then go home an discuss what was taught with your spouse.

I promise that it can be one of the most beneficial and relationship building exercises.

 

[Brian2]

I guess it all boils down to interpretation.

I believe the reason that women - at least married women - were instructed to do this was for the benefit of their husbands.

God wants husbands to fulfill their roles as spiritual instructors for their wives and children.

God wants wives to lean on their husbands in this regard.

I mean - when my wife and I do this - we have some of the best conversations ever.

She understands the material - but as a man and her husband - I can offer her a different perspective which edifies her.

And my hearing her perspective and input edifies me.

God doesn't want anyone - not even an Apostle - to take that dialogue away from a husband and wife.

So - while at a worship service - allow the Priesthood leaders to officiate - then go home an discuss what was taught with your spouse.

I promise that it can be one of the most beneficial and relationship building exercises.

They sound like they could be great discussions and that the men would benefit.

 

[Shakeel]

Bree, thank you for providing what you think to be the reason. I cannot see it. In my marriage, my husband and I decided on things together, mutually. I don't think that was some sort of perversion of God's design.

Well you're here arguing against the Bible. I bet there are even more things about the Bible you don't accept as well.

 

[danieldemol]

Well you're here arguing against the Bible.

Nothing wrong with that

 

[Shakeel]

Nothing wrong with that

There's a contradiction when you claim to believe in it and argue against it at the same time.

 

[halbhh]

This is the kind of bigotry that always arises when people try to justify treating women like children.

It's a good point you make.

The disciples of Jesus were surprised (in that time/culture) to see Him talking with a woman and treating her as equally important to a man.

With full equality.

It was one of several before-its-time things Jesus did.

Not just for a couple of minutes either, but longer than most interactions:

John 4 NIV (a long visit that continues 2 full days!)

And we also read how he taught women right along with the men, together -- equal.

And in Romans chapter 16, we see how women were probably half or more of the leaders and workers in the early church (see post 203 above for that example).

 

[1213]

Adam's rationalization doesn't absolve him of moral responsibility. The only point here worth mentioning is that Adam KNEW it was wrong and did it anyway, which is rebellion. Eve did not rebel, she was deceived.

I think they both knew as much, they just chose to reject God and rather believed someone else. And I think they both were responsible of their actions.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

They sound like they could be great discussions and that the men would benefit.

Why do you believe that the wife would not benefit?

 

[Bird123]

That's so cynical. Actually not everyone wants to rule the world. I would never, ever choose politics. Yuck.

Sounds wonderful, and very good advice!

Everybody wants to rule the world. I'm not sure you understand what I am saying with this. I'll try to do better.

First, let's look at what God is doing. God grants total freedom of choice. God places knowledge and truth around us all. It waits to be Discovered. How long did mankind watch birds fly before mankind figured out how?

Mankind is a ruling and controlling lot. Everyone wants to rule the world or have people their way, instead of allowing others to learn, grow and choose on their own. Do it my way is what many many want.

Ruling and controlling others is one of the petty things mankind holds so dear. It is seen in peer pressure. Why coerce or manipulate others to wear a specific shoe, clothes.or hair style. why can't people be who they choose without trouble from others?

Mothers pressure their children to get married. Why are they attempting to bend others to their will? Children are told what to do instead of taught to Choose what to do for themselves.

Religion and even atheists do their best to alter each other to their will. Many get angry and hateful when they fail to rule and control. Religion threatens with Hell and God hating if they do not alter their choices. If they still don't convert I have seen the anger and hating all around.

You are right. Politics is a scratch and claw for power and control. It's a circus. What would happen if a candidate came out with real intelligence, love and kindness to all?

People place conditions on everything. I'll love you but only if you meet my conditions. If your actions are not so so, I won't have anything to do with you. We might let women speak but only if they say the right things. Can't you see this everywhere?

As for myself, I try to copy God. If one copies High Intelligence, the choices come out so much better. I place truth in the world. I might even argue a point, however I will never make demands on anyone's choices. Choosing one's choices is a big part of God's learning system. That system leads us all forward.

I do my best to Love Unconditionally, just like God does. Unconditional Love always does what is best for the other. Further, anyone's actions or choices will not change who I am. I will never attempt to alter anyone's actions or choices through pain of any kind.

No one gets payback or hate from me regardless of any bad choice or choices I might not like. Everyone is a child of God and on the path of learning. We were never expected to never make bad choices. More is learned through bad choices than almost any other thing so why hate?

In God's great learning system, when one understands all sides, intelligence will make the best choices. WE are all the same. I say point them in the right direction. Supply all the knowledge and information possible. Help solve problems along the way. Allow others to walk their own path.

God gave everyone a different view to guaranty mankind a larger view than any one person could have. If views are restricted due to controlling and manipulating people what will be missed? What will be lost??

It was Discovered that the countries of the world with the best economies have the most economic freedoms. Diversity of ideas will supply advancements many do not realize.

I say: Let them be them and share that which is special about them with the world. Yes, I will point and supply information, but I never want to rule, control or make the choices for others.

Everybody wants to rule the world is not a judgment call. I'm speaking to what is. I see this as one of mankind's biggest lessons to learn. Of course, with the general statement, everybody wants to rule the world, We all know it's not really every single person. Really look around your world and see. All the secrets of the universe stare us all in the face.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!!

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Everybody wants to rule the world. I'm not sure you understand what I am saying with this. I'll try to do better.

First, let's look at what God is doing. God grants total freedom of choice. God places knowledge and truth around us all. It waits to be Discovered. How long did mankind watch birds fly before mankind figured out how?

Mankind is a ruling and controlling lot. Everyone wants to rule the world or have people their way, instead of allowing others to learn, grow and choose on their own. Do it my way is what many many want.

Ruling and controlling others is one of the petty things mankind holds so dear. It is seen in peer pressure. Why coerce or manipulate others to wear a specific shoe, clothes.or hair style. why can't people be who they choose without trouble from others?

Mothers pressure their children to get married. Why are they attempting to bend others to their will? Children are told what to do instead of taught to Choose what to do for themselves.

Religion and even atheists do their best to alter each other to their will. Many get angry and hateful when they fail to rule and control. Religion threatens with Hell and God hating if they do not alter their choices. If they still don't convert I have seen the anger and hating all around.

You are right. Politics is a scratch and claw for power and control. It's a circus. What would happen if a candidate came out with real intelligence, love and kindness to all?

People place conditions on everything. I'll love you but only if you meet my conditions. If your actions are not so so, I won't have anything to do with you. We might let women speak but only if they say the right things. Can't you see this everywhere?

As for myself, I try to copy God. If one copies High Intelligence, the choices come out so much better. I place truth in the world. I might even argue a point, however I will never make demands on anyone's choices. Choosing one's choices is a big part of God's learning system. That system leads us all forward.

I do my best to Love Unconditionally, just like God does. Unconditional Love always does what is best for the other. Further, anyone's actions or choices will not change who I am. I will never attempt to alter anyone's actions or choices through pain of any kind.

No one gets payback or hate from me regardless of any bad choice or choices I might not like. Everyone is a child of God and on the path of learning. We were never expected to never make bad choices. More is learned through bad choices than almost any other thing so why hate?

In God's great learning system, when one understands all sides, intelligence will make the best choices. WE are all the same. I say point them in the right direction. Supply all the knowledge and information possible. Help solve problems along the way. Allow others to walk their own path.

God gave everyone a different view to guaranty mankind a larger view than any one person could have. If views are restricted due to controlling and manipulating people what will be missed? What will be lost??

It was Discovered that the countries of the world with the best economies have the most economic freedoms. Diversity of ideas will supply advancements many do not realize.

I say: Let them be them and share that which is special about them with the world. Yes, I will point and supply information, but I never want to rule, control or make the choices for others.

Everybody wants to rule the world is not a judgment call. I'm speaking to what is. I see this as one of mankind's biggest lessons to learn. Of course, with the general statement, everybody wants to rule the world, We all know it's not really every single person. Really look around your world and see. All the secrets of the universe stare us all in the face.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!!

Let me start by saying that from your self-description, you seem like a really nice person.

You are simply mistaken in your assumption that everyone wants to rule the world, aka control others. I am not that way, so I know gosh darn well that there are others like me. In fact YOU YOURSELF state above "I never want to rule, control, or make the choices for others." Well if all of that is true, then where do you get the idea that everyone wants to rule the world? I think you are just being somewhat inconsistent in your thinking.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I think they both knew as much, they just chose to reject God and rather believed someone else. And I think they both were responsible of their actions.

If that were true, Paul would not be saying that Eve was deceived. Being tricked into doing something wrong is not rebellion. At least that is how it seems to me. Be well.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It's a good point you make.

The disciples of Jesus were surprised (in that time/culture) to see Him talking with a woman and treating her as equally important to a man.

With full equality.

It was one of several before-its-time things Jesus did.

Not just for a couple of minutes either, but longer than most interactions:

John 4 NIV (a long visit that continues 2 full days!)

And we also read how he taught women right along with the men, together -- equal.

And in Romans chapter 16, we see how women were probably half or more of the leaders and workers in the early church (see post 203 above for that example).

Thank you for presenting the other half.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Well you're here arguing against the Bible. I bet there are even more things about the Bible you don't accept as well.

First of all, I don't really care if I'm arguing against the New Testament, as I don't consider it the word of God. But as one person posted in here, there are many OTHER verses in the New Testament that show that women are equal to men, and are to be treated well, even given positions of power in the church. So really, your opinion has less to do with accepting the New Testament than it has to do with which parts of the New Testament do you want to emphasize, and which other parts do you want to try to explain away.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

God wants wives to lean on their husbands in this regard.

Why? What if the husband has less spiritual understanding than the wife?

If I have a masters degree in math, do I go to someone with an associates degree to get help with a math question?

Husbands simply are not inherently more spiritually wise than wives. Whoever is the lesser should go to the wiser, and that includes when the husband is the lesser and the wife is the wiser.

Further, one of the things a person gains from spiritual understanding is the basic ethic that we don't oppress others and infantilize them.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

this is not about whether a woman can make a decision or not. Its about who has the ultimate authority to make the decision. And it was asked at the outset about women teaching in the 'assembly' or in 'church' as a minster.

So what goes on between a husband and wife is not the point of this discussion nor was it the point of what the scriptures say about headship.

When it comes down to who God gave authority to lead the assembly, or the family, it is to the man. That does not mean that a man in the family does not allow his wife to make a decision. But 'headship' is assigned by God, not by us.

If there is going to be a hierarchy, the person who is most knowledgeable and wise should be the one making the decisions. That person is not automatically going to be the man. In a marriage, there doesn't have to be a hierarchy -- decisions can be made via consensus, with the hubby and wifey talking things out together and coming to a mutually pleasing decision.

 

[Bree]

If there is going to be a hierarchy, the person who is most knowledgeable and wise should be the one making the decisions. That person is not automatically going to be the man. In a marriage, there doesn't have to be a hierarchy -- decisions can be made via consensus, with the hubby and wifey talking things out together and coming to a mutually pleasing decision.

yes in a marriage that can most certainly be accomplished. But when it is the man who is held accountable by God for the decisions made, then i think its best for the man to made the final decision.

but this thread was not about marriage. It was about women leading a church as a priest would.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Why? What if the husband has less spiritual understanding than the wife?

What do you believe "spiritual understanding" is?

"Spiritual understanding" starts with the realization that we don't know anything.

Also - that obedience is the first Law of Heaven and we shouldn't think ourselves above the will of God.

God has created Man and Woman differently - to ideally fulfill different roles - equally important but distinctly different.

It is wrong for a woman to believe herself to have more "spiritual understanding" than her husband - just as wrong as it would be for a man to "oppress" or "infantilize" his wife.

God has given the man a commission - one that his wife should help him fulfill. If he is not living up to the task - then his wife should remind him and even berate him until he does his duty.

If a man is not fulfilling this duty - then it will count against him in the Final Judgment.

Just as much as a woman who is not fulfilling her duties as a mother. It will count against her. And her husband should be helping her fulfill her duties.

There is nothing wrong with a woman gaining "spiritual understanding" - considering that that is the goal of this whole thing - just as there is nothing wrong with a man gaining a more mothering nature toward his children.

However - no matter how mothering he becomes - he is not the children's mother - and she will always be the ultimate authority over their children.

So - no matter how much "spiritual understanding" a wife has - it is not her duty - and she should be doing what she can to help her husband fulfill that duty - just as he should be helping her fulfill her duties regarding the children.

Of course - if there is no husband in the life of the mother - then it is her responsibility to fulfill this role for her children - at least until she remarries.

And also if there is no wife - the husband and father would then take on the responsibilities of a mother to his children until he remarries.

If I have a masters degree in math, do I go to someone with an associates degree to get help with a math question?

Yes - if that person with the associate's degree has been given some kind of authority by a ruling body concerning math related issues.

Once a man and woman marry they enter into a legally binding contract that places him as her head in all matters spiritual.

And if he falters she needs to do what she can to help him - not supplant him.

If he continually fails and shows no interest in this regard then that could be grounds for her getting Church leadership involved.

It is the same if a woman neglects her duties to her children.

Husbands simply are not inherently more spiritually wise than wives.

No one said that they were.

No one said that President's are better or wiser than anyone else - but they are in charge of certain things - aren't they?

Biden doesn't even know where he is half the time.

Whoever is the lesser should go to the wiser, and that includes when the husband is the lesser and the wife is the wiser.

Neither is lesser. Why do you consider it a competition?

If either the man or the woman has some sort of deficiency - their spouse shouldn't usurp the authority of the other - but help them better fulfill their duties.

Does a husband who realizes that his wife does not have the best maternal instincts take her children away from her? Or does he help pick up some of the slack?

Maybe there are certain responsibilities regarding her children that she feels inadequate in doing? They should determine this and combat the issue together.

And no matter how much she lacks - she is and will forever be the mother of those children - the ultimate authority - unless - of course - she is abusing them or something like that.

If a husband is having difficulties in his role - his wife should help him better fulfill his role - not take the position from him.

Further, one of the things a person gains from spiritual understanding is the basic ethic that we don't oppress others and infantilize them.

"Spiritual understanding" is wanting to do God's will - not inflate your own ego.

 

[Shakeel]

It is wrong for a woman to believe herself to have more "spiritual understanding" than her husband -

What if the husband becomes an apostate?

In general, it would be concerning for her to say that her understanding is better, and if there is a big difference it may be a compatibility issue, but because people usually try to marry someone compatible, this would ideally be avoided.

However, humans have only so much control over their thoughts that it would be unrealistic to deny her from thinking that way if it indeed was the case.