Women should keep silent in the assembly?

[Fallen Prophet]

Aren't we supposed to be at our best at the place of worship?

Yes - I certainly dress my best at church - but I don't wear a suit and tie to bed.

The OP mentions the Apostle Paul in his epistle to the members of the Church in Corinth instructing women to "keep silence in the churches" and that if they have a desire to learn "let them ask their husbands at home".

Unfortunately - we don't have the original epistle from the Church in Corinth to the Apostle Paul - which would have recorded their questions and concerns that led to that instruction.

I believe that an issue arose in that church where women were trying to officiate church meetings - thinking they had the same authority as Priesthood leaders - but they don't.

There may even have been a group of disruptive women - taking up time asking questions of the teachers.

So - Paul's instruction could be for the Church in general or about one particular church in Corinth.

And Paul's instruction to Timothy - also mentioned in the OP - was specifically about women not "[usurping] authority over the man" and that women should "learn in silence".

I believe this to also be a reference to only behavior at church meetings - because it agrees with 1 Corinthians - and not silence in general - because 1 Corinthians instructs women to speak to their husbands at home.

And this also leads me to believe that the original epistle from the Corinthian saints to Paul was about women who were attempting to officiate church meetings - or "usurp authority" from the men - because he felt compelled to mention this instruction to Timothy as well.

This strikes me as illogical. The same way some Muslim women do not wear hijab outside in front of men and make sure to wear hijab while praying alone at home (which is necessary for the prayer to be valid). It's like they're taking a moment to be religious and then leave it. I feel the same way about Christians who cover their head in church.

I don't know Islamic Law in regards to the wearing of the hijab - but if it lists only certain times or places that women should wear them - then I don't think any women would be at fault for not wearing them at other times or places.

I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ has commanded His followers to not pray using vain repetitions - yet I also believe that there are certain prayers - those used in ordinances like baptism and the blessing of the bread and wine - which need to be recited by rote.

This being said - I do believe that there are certain instances of prayer when women should their heads - but those would be when they are in attendance for an ordinance - not every single prayer.

Lack of education.

Or blind faith - without considering every possibility.

Today in churches there are female pastors.

I believe that this is exactly what the Apostle Paul taught against.

Women cannot hold the Priesthood - just as men cannot give birth.

Those who allow this not only lack education - but they are blindly following the dictates of men.

She can if she wants to and has the opportunity, but if she has no valid reason and permission from her husband then she's sinful. Religious people tend to choose to do what is right.

I share the opinion of Mike Pence when he said that he never meets with any woman alone.

I do believe that it is inappropriate for married men and women to be alone with members of the opposite sex who are not their spouse.

It can look bad - even if it is innocent.

However - I do not believe it is sinful.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Do explain how you can get pregnant without a man.

I’m sorry. I thought you respected the Bible, where this happened.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

It's kinda like the two impeachments of President Trump - there was no evidence of any crime - they did it just because they didn't like him.

This explains a lot

 

[Shakeel]

I’m sorry. I thought you respected the Bible, where this happened.

I don't believe it happens to other people. I won't say it's impossible, but it's fair enough to say that in general it doesn't happen. I'm not a Christian though, but a similar story is in the Qur'an.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

It was a little long and I consider myself a human being not a mouse. Can you just clarify, has anybody ever made a woman pregnant without a man's contribution? And I am talking about human beings.

In religion this happened all the time.

 

[idea]

I view sexist male heirarchies as unloving, unjust, and do not believe it is from God. No borrowed light, no leaning on arms of flesh, everyone is responsible for and has authority over themselves. The idea that God requires middlemen is from the dark ages where religious leaders sought unjustified power. We are all just imperfect humans, none more loved than another, none with more authority than another.

 

[Shakeel]

And Paul's instruction to Timothy - also mentioned in the OP - was specifically about women not "[usurping] authority over the man" and that women should "learn in silence".

I believe this to also be a reference to only behavior at church meetings - because it agrees with 1 Corinthians - and not silence in general - because 1 Corinthians instructs women to speak to their husbands at home.

It's clear from many places of the bible that women must never usurp authority over the man. So that one isn't situational.

Corinthians 14:34 "Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.

It's also clear from the above that their submission is not situational.

I believe this to also be a reference to only behavior at church meetings - because it agrees with 1 Corinthians - and not silence in general - because 1 Corinthians instructs women to speak to their husbands at home.

It is far fetching to assume that just because they're allowed to speak at home, the instruction must be only for church - what about all the other public places?

It also says in 1 Timothy 2:12 "I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet."

Which confirms that women cannot teach men. It doesn't say where. It's a general order.

I don't know Islamic Law in regards to the wearing of the hijab - but if it lists only certain times or places that women should wear them - then I don't think any women would be at fault for not wearing them at other times or places.

Of course it would be okay if that was the law, but the law is that they must cover themselves wherever they are seen by any non-related men and when they are praying, even when they pray alone.

This being said - I do believe that there are certain instances of prayer when women should their heads - but those would be when they are in attendance for an ordinance - not every single prayer.

What is the point of covering the head occasionally?

 

[Shakeel]

In religion this happened all the time.

How so?

 

[Shakeel]

I view sexist male heirarchies as unloving, unjust, and do not believe it is from God. No borrowed light, no leaning on arms of flesh, everyone is responsible for and has authority over themselves. The idea that God requires middlemen is from the dark ages where religious leaders sought unjustified power. We are all just imperfect humans, none more loved than another, none with more authority than another.

Go tell that to the police wherever you are.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

How so?

I dunno. But divine births happen in a lot of religions. It’s a very popular trope.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

We don’t really need cis males to procreate. All we need is the means to get the required number of chromosomes.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

This explains a lot

It does - a gross misuse of the powers of impeachment.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

It's clear from many places of the bible that women must never usurp authority over the man. So that one isn't situational.

You mean besides when Sarah had Abraham marry Hagar - her Egyptian handmaid - in order for her to gain children?

And again years later when she commanded Abraham to cast out both his other wife Hagar and his son Ishmael - which he did - even though it was "very grievous" to him?

Or when Rebekah helped Jacob gain blessings by Isaac's hand - despite his expressed desire to give those blessings to Esau?

Or when Zipporah - Moses' wife - circumcised their son because Moses decided to delay it?

These are instances of the wives of great men usurping authority over their husbands - and God honored them.

I believe these things were acceptable in the eyes of God because they all had to do with their children.

I believe that wives can usurp the authority of their husbands when it comes to their children.

Corinthians 14:34 "Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.

It's also clear from the above that their submission is not situational.

Except it says churches.

What do you believe the Apostle Paul is claiming women should "be in submission" to?

Everyone? All men? Religious leaders? Their husbands?

I believe that since the Apostle Paul was giving instruction in regards to behavior during church services - that his instruction only refers to church services.

He has no right to tell a man how his wife should act in his own home. He does not have the authority to define the relationships of all husbands and wives.

It is far fetching to assume that just because they're allowed to speak at home, the instruction must be only for church - what about all the other public places?

It is not far-fetching in the least considering that only church and home were mentioned - not all public places.

It also says in 1 Timothy 2:12 "I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet."

Which confirms that women cannot teach men. It doesn't say where. It's a general order.

I don't see any reason to assume this - but when you couple this with what he said in 1 Corinthians - I believe it is clear that he is talking only about church services.

And I also do not believe he is saying that they cannot speak - but that they cannot officiate - or lead the meetings.

Of course it would be okay if that was the law, but the law is that they must cover themselves wherever they are seen by any non-related men and when they are praying, even when they pray alone.

Why?

What is the point of covering the head occasionally?

What is the point of covering the head all the time? Or at all?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

For a woman to usurp her husbands authority, he would first have to RIGHTLY have that authority in the first place.

 

[Shakeel]

These are instances of the wives of great men usurping authority over their husbands - and God honored them.

I don't think communication is usurping authority. I also don't think those women were sinless. Just because someone does something and is generally a good person doesn't mean that something was definitely good.

 

[Shakeel]

Except it says churche

It says "as the law says", so the law already said it before.

What do you believe the Apostle Paul is claiming women should "be in submission" to

Their husbands, fathers or brothers, depending on the situation.

He has no right to tell a man how his wife should act in his own home. He does not have the authority to define the relationships of all husbands and wives.

Then how come he has authority to say how they should behave in churches? But he didn't say it alone. Even Jesus (peace be upon him) said that according to the Bible.

It is not far-fetching in the least considering that only church and home were mentioned - not all public places.

Church is a public place. Home is a private place. Most other places are public.

I don't see any reason to assume this - but when you couple this with what he said in 1 Corinthians - I believe it is clear th

He said they should go home and ask their husbands. I.e. their husbands will teach them.

And I also do not believe he is saying that they cannot speak - but that they cannot officiate - or lead the meetings.

Based on what? Is asking leading? Why can't they ask in the church? Why ask at home? Asking isn't leading.

Why?

It's a command. That's sufficient reason to abide by it.

What is the point of covering the head all the time? Or at all?

To hide the woman's beauty.

Why do you think God in the Bible ordered it to be done?

 

[idea]

[QUOTE="Shakeel, ...
To hide the woman's beauty.
...[/QUOTE]

if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out... I think is it better for men to pluck out their eyes if they have problems, than for women to live in chains.

you have very strange beliefs Shakeel, they are not just, not loving, not kind. You would blame women for what they look like, rather than blame men for their lust? You would view women as slaves unable to think for themselves, rather than enter into a beautiful union with a partner who is truly a partner? This is very sad. Perhaps you have had no women in your life whom you respect as an equal?