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Featured Women should keep silent in the assembly?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by IndigoChild5559, Jun 21, 2021.

  1. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    For what reason would a woman not have the same right as a man to speak in a religious assembly? Other than sheer sexism of course. I'm not speaking of women chatting and gossiping. No one should be rude--men cannot do this either. I'm speaking of the contribution to the learning and worship.

    The most well known religious prohibition is from 1 Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak," and 1 Timothy 2:11-12 "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet."

    Be aware, of course, that this sort of thing doesn't just exist in Christianity, but other religions as well. Thus, I hope we get responses from multiple religions.

    In Orthodox Judaism, for example, the tradition is not to have women rabbis. Now it is controversial there because some women are pushing the envelope and gaining semikha (ordination). That causes a lot of anxiety and hard feelings among those who are opposed. For example, I was reading just the other day about a woman who taught in a Jewish school in the UK. When she received her ordination, she was let go from her job.

    BTW, this post is not meant to be a slam of any religion or sect. I think that all of them have made a lot of progress compared to how things were in the past.

    Anyhow, this post was inspired by visiting a website outlining the beliefs of Messianic Israelism (I was hoping to better understand one of the writers in this forum). So while some may try to claim that this is a thing of the past, trust me, in some groups it is still very much alive.

    Okay, let the discussion begin.
     
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  2. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    People do not care what God says or wants. Why should women keep quiet in church? Because God says so.
     
  3. JoshuaTree

    JoshuaTree Flowers are red?

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    Man made god man?
     
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  4. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    In the dawning age, no good reason. The traditions of the age now ending, the Iron Age (Kali Yuga) had men in dominant positions. Those structures are being replaced by ones reflective of the new age now beginning.
     
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  5. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Seriously?

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    What's the reasoning though?

    Is it just her genitalia and chromosomes, etc or something more spiritual involved that makes her different than him?
     
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  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    This is a good topic and I am glad you raised it....

    This all goes back to the concept of headship. If you go back to Eden, the role of husband and father was “complimented” by the role of wife and mother. Each had clearly defined roles with no need for one to encroach on the other’s role in the family arrangement. It’s like any good company, it has its President or CEO and a Vice President who supports the one whose job it is to run the company smoothly. Each person knows their job description, and is happy to do what they are instructed to do by their boss. Ambition is usually created by pride, so ambitions can lead to conflict if one is not qualified for the other person's job, even though they may be capable.

    So if someone within that company tries to usurp the role of someone superior in rank, (or with better qualification) we experience ill feeling.....and if it is done with jealousy or malice, the trouble is magnified.

    God designed families to be run by one CEO, and with the support of his Vice President, each family was to be run like a successful company, with happy employees who know their job and do it well. No one could complain that they were undervalued or underpaid...the rewards were priceless.

    Seeing women usurp the role of men in Christendom is not surprising. The Apostle Paul also said....
    1 Corinthians 11:3...
    “But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God.

    So even Jesus has a head over him.

    With that arrangement in mind, women did not have a teaching role in the congregation, but they were teachers of others outside of it and had a large part in the preaching activity. This follows that when congregations met for Bible study, song and prayer, which dominated their gatherings, women were to know their place. Those who want to go outside of what is written in the scriptures assume that God’s rules only apply to ancient times, and now that women have gained equality, they should be able to compete with men in all fields including positions in the congregation of God’s worshippers. That is a false judgment. God’s rules never go out of fashion, they apply universally so that peace and order is maintained. It was so from the beginning.

    It doesn’t mean that women must remain silent altogether, but they are not assigned teaching roles in the congregations. This is not a position of power, but one of responsibility. God holds men accountable for what they teach and how they handle themselves in the congregation and in their personal lives. Elders were those with spiritual qualifications, but not from doing a theological course at some seminary or Bible college.....their qualifications were spiritual and actively demonstrated. (1 Timothy 3:1-12)

    No human is free to rewrite God’s rules, but to humbly accept the assignment given with no jealousy or animosity....it just creates divisions and contentions.

    Jehovah’s Witnesses stick to what the Bible teaches and humility prevents any woman from reaching out for something that does not belong to her....look where it got Eve....

    We understand that God put these things in place for a reason, and we respect his arrangement.
     
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  7. Bird123

    Bird123 Well-Known Member

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    Everybody wants to rule the world. This is especially notable when it comes to power. All religions are creations of mankind. Such attempt to control the voice of women reflects mankind not God.

    To really be wise, let's look at what Great Intelligence does. God grants total freedom of speech. God gave everyone a different view to guaranty mankind a larger view than any one person could have. If one limits free speech, how can all the views ever be seen?

    God will never restrict anyone's freedom to speak. In fact God counts on freedom of speech. Resolution on all fronts is better when all voices are heard. Real truth never hides questions, comments, and all views. I think it best we do not either

    We are all Special in so many different ways. Be brave enough to share that which is special about you with the world. Be Brave enough to speak freely even when others do not want you to do it. If you do, it only makes the world and it's people better in the long run.

    Now for my story: The True Love of my life ( now deceased) and I were opposites in so many ways. When there was a big decision to make, I could easily make it on my own. On the other hand, I discovered that when her and I shared our opposite views then decided together that all the decisions ended up to be the best choices. Each shared views were not always seen by the other before sharing.

    In time, one discovers that ruling and controlling will never supply the best answers, Intelligence does!!

    That's what I see. It's very clear!!
     
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  8. Meow Mix

    Meow Mix Curious Kitty

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    I can’t help but feel like the implication is that men are superior or more qualified.
     
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  9. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    From having been to a synagogue (Chabad Lubavitch) a lot and learning about Judaism I would say women only have 3 commandments: Lighting candles, spreading dough and keeping menstrually clean.

    I think the idea is that women should just have it easy and not be responsible for debating anything.
     
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  10. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    I have been told that the women in Paul's time were less educated than the men and interrupted the meating with chat and questions about what was going on. Paul's comment was for the purpose of putting an end to that and he goes on to say that the women should ask their husbands at home.
     
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  11. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    Well the thing is, is that it must kind of help to have Goddesses in the religion. It has to. That's part of what's so interesting about reading norse or celtic myth, is that you have goddesses, and so in extension to that, the myths and the societies were enabled to produce such things as 'witch' queens and warrior queens, minus the evil connotation. Powerful and magical female characters like Grimhild and Brynhild for example, play pivotal roles in the mythology when they exercise skill and influence. And what kind of religious philosophy is apt to generate goddesses and magical women? Probably one that thinks a little more intensely about our locked in connection to the natural world, which traditional understandings often exemplify as being feminine, and mother-like, and therefore magical in its ability to generate and produce.
     
    #11 ideogenous_mover, Jun 21, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2021
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  12. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    Two humans.

    One the men group evil theists thinkers for science. Builders.

    His human terms the space womb highest holiest fake maths zero. False mother female terms.

    No numbers.
    No thesis.
    No sound.
    No man's AI science voice speaking.

    Self liar man thinking about mother womb maths space thesis first.

    Attacked self second.

    Became a self man idoliser of his science self. Spoke false words in natural life about self man maths status. Mother space did not speak in the assembly of gases.

    Church a building only. Built for sound resonations like the new healing temples did that replaced science machine temples. The evil attack he caused on life pretending he was a God.

    Did human healing inside building by sound music therapies.

    No talking allowed. Allow holiness to permeate your mind instead. Be quiet. Just meditate. Seeing you theoried in community for the need of human brain healing after you burnt irradiated it.

    And owned the cause of nasty human brain behaviours. So used it as a human therapy brain entrainment.

    Why you enforced three daily ritual as you denied conscious balance of mind three times yourselves in scientific causes.

    One of man's multi fake status self importance of scientific evaluations about how important you all are as scientists.

    Yet caused all of life sufferings.
     
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  13. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    That was never the case.....its like an automobile...it has only one set of instruments...one steering wheel, one set of brakes and one accelerator. In the family, God has appointed the husband as the designated driver, and he is in the main one in the driver's seat. That doesn't mean that others in his vehicle are prisoners, or have no input.....the passenger seat is occupied by one who can act as a navigator. The man is obligated as family head to care for his wife and family the way Christ cared for his disciples...with love and patience and understanding. Males and females have a different approach to things and if everyone stays in their designated role, each will appreciate the importance of the other's role......each are needed as it creates a perfect balance.

    Men are not superior or more qualified, although some men view that role as dictatorial.....it was never meant to be that way. Both roles are equally valued and if things go belly up over a poor decision made by the male....the buck stops with him. :D
     
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  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Women chatting and interrupting? Preposterous! [​IMG]
     
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  15. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein On the funeral pyre of existence
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    Scholars aren't sure if Paul actually wrote those passages or if they were inserted later. They don't seem to fit his other teachings about and interactions with women. That "the man is the head of the woman" statement seems to contradict his "there is no male or female, in Christ" statement.

    Does the Bible really tell women to be silent in church?
     
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  16. Meow Mix

    Meow Mix Curious Kitty

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    That’s great for people that choose this and have the right personality; but it seems harmful to me to expect that to work for everyone. Not all men are alike, not all women are alike, and it certainly isn’t the case that we can just assume roles for people based on their sex. That leads to grief because people don’t fit cookie cutter molds like that.
     
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  17. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    The presence of goddesses in a culture's religious belief doesn't mean anything for the status of women. Look at the city of Athens, under the protection of the Goddess Athena, goddess of wisdom, war and crafts. In Athens women were treated in a way akin to that of Saudi Arabia. They were denied education, were confined to their home (or a specific section of their home for the richer ones) and were of course forbidden to participate in the politics of the city nor in any military capacity. Greeks were extremely misogynistic yet they had many important and celebrated goddesses. Ironically, women in Athens even had a lower status and personal freedom than in other Greek cities.
     
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  18. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein On the funeral pyre of existence
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    And women are treated horribly in India, too, despite Hinduism's multitudes of goddesses.
     
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  19. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    So, in your view, men aren't superior to women, but men have power and authority over women and more power and personal freedom in society thus making them superior hierarchically.

    In other words, men are superior to women in everything, but talents and virtues.
     
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  20. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    Also a good example.

    Never look at female deities to look at the status of women in society. At best they are a representation of how he author of the myth perceived women or, in the case of Athena, a psychosexual allegory on the unobtainable desires of men (or both).
     
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