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Wolves in sheep's clothings when the light inside is darkness.

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
When we debate religions and look through history at the evil done using religion as a screen.
Do we as human beings really recognise the evil taking place before us?
Discuss the religions which mankind have hijacked to use as a defense for doing evil and yet the religion does not teach such evil.
Lets not backslide since we have the privilege to read the history of what happens as a result.

I went past the field of a sluggard, past the vineyard of someone who has no sense; thorns had come up everywhere, the ground was covered with weeds, and the stone wall was in ruins. I applied my heart to what I observed and learned a lesson from what I saw: A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to rest— and poverty will come on you like a thief and scarcity like an armed man. Prov 24:30-34
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
If Satan actually exists and has jurisdiction over his domain, there's a word that covers that: "polytheism".
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
When we debate religions and look through history at the evil done using religion as a screen.
Do we as human beings really recognise the evil taking place before us?

Most folks don't see themselves as evil. Everyone finds some way of justifying their actions even if only just to themselves.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
If your all-powerful all-knowing God created Satan, then your all-knowing and all-powerful God is responsible for everything that Satan does. God created A&E KNOWING that they would be gullible enough to be fooled by a talking snake (or Satan in disguise according to some), a being that God created for the expressed purpose of fooling his A&E creations. God created Satan with foreknowledge of what Satan would do, so clearly Satan is simply fulfilling God's will. Attempting to separate them into these two opposing forces is suggesting that Satan isn't God's creation, but rather a God unto himself.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Let us challenge your thought trait for one moment.

If God is good and Satan Evil.
Then why isn't Satan responsible for the Evil?

Going on the revelation: " Satan is the Father of all lies" Why do you think mankind believe so many different things and are often at loggerheads with each other?

Look at Satan the serpent for a moment.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.


The lie was what mislead Eve to disobey God. She had the choice to believe God who had been good to her and provided for her or a serpent who only had to lie.
What do you believe was the Serpents intent? Did what he tell her bring her harm or good?

We see the Serpent/Satan/Devil has never been on the side of good or wanted good for man.

So I can ask the question based on knowledge that good and evil cannot come from the same root cause. Just as day and night cannot exist together but each must reign separately one after the other.

So now I have accounted for what I have previously said using the basis for those things. Now account for circular reasoning and why Satan would not be a cause.
"If God is good and Satan Evil.
Then why isn't Satan responsible for the Evil?"

Because God created Satan and therefore created evil.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If your all-powerful all-knowing God created Satan, then your all-knowing and all-powerful God is responsible for everything that Satan does. God created A&E KNOWING that they would be gullible enough to be fooled by a talking snake (or Satan in disguise according to some), a being that God created for the expressed purpose of fooling his A&E creations. God created Satan with foreknowledge of what Satan would do, so clearly Satan is simply fulfilling God's will. Attempting to separate them into these two opposing forces is suggesting that Satan isn't God's creation, but rather a God unto himself.
What if satan is just a word for the influence of Popular Opinion?
In the case of Adam and Eve, they wanted to satisfy their curiosity, so they ate.
In the case of Jesus Christ in the wilderness, he KNEW that people would doubt him and that they wanted signs from him.
In the case of satan appearing with the angels in Heaven, it was for their doubt that he appeared.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
What if satan is just a word for the influence of Popular Opinion?
In the case of Adam and Eve, they wanted to satisfy their curiosity, so they ate.
In the case of Jesus Christ in the wilderness, he KNEW that people would doubt him and that they wanted signs from him.
In the case of satan appearing with the angels in Heaven, it was for their doubt that he appeared.

I suppose you could define Satan in such terms if you wanted to. But then you'd have to apply this definition to all popular opinion. Popular opinion in the 21st century is that slavery is an abhorrent practice that no civilized nation would ever sanction. By your definition we should thank Satan that we've finally reached such an enlightened level of thinking on slavery.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I suppose you could define Satan in such terms if you wanted to. But then you'd have to apply this definition to all popular opinion. Popular opinion in the 21st century is that slavery is an abhorrent practice that no civilized nation would ever sanction. By your definition we should thank Satan that we've finally reached such an enlightened level of thinking on slavery.
You are right! Popular opinion could bring peace. Do you know why it has not?
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
You are right! Popular opinion could bring peace. Do you know why it has not?[/QUOTE?]

I think one possibility as to why it has not is because we have only just recently reached a point where there is global popular opinion. It required a globally connected world in order for the popular opinion among nations that slavery is wrong to have an effect on those nations that still practiced it. Only when all nations are watching can there be universal condemnation of human rights violations. Now with the explosion of social media across the world over the past couple of decades individuals instead of just spokesmen for nations are increasingly effecting the perception of popular opinion. The greater voice that individuals have the more that will effect popular opinion, as opposed to just the voices of the powerful that have typically been expressed globally in the past. Only time will tell if this can eventually lead to global peace.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
When we debate religions and look through history at the evil done using religion as a screen.
Do we as human beings really recognise the evil taking place before us?
Discuss the religions which mankind have hijacked to use as a defense for doing evil and yet the religion does not teach such evil.

Then look at Satan and how he might be behind all these things in order to destroy as many human lives as
possible.

We expect an anti-Christ we expect many things to happen and all evil, destructive and devastating to many.
God has warned that people perish for lack of knowledge and that is a lack of love of truth.

I understand this is a heavy topic intellectually and religiously. Sometimes we have to test our trains of thought and where we are going regarding those thoughts about religion, mankind and the future. Especially when it comes to God, Man and Satan in religious teachings.


So discuss the history and where you can see these things having happened.

What part are humans playing without even realising it?

Problem, - there was no evil autonomous Satan until Christianity made him up.

Satan is not evil in Tanakh. He does YHVH's will.

*
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Let us challenge your thought trait for one moment.

If God is good and Satan Evil.
Then why isn't Satan responsible for the Evil?

Going on the revelation: " Satan is the Father of all lies" Why do you think mankind believe so many different things and are often at loggerheads with each other?

He was not such in Tanakh. That is later Christian mythology, - written AFTER Jesus' death.

Look at Satan the serpent for a moment.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

The lie was what mislead Eve to disobey God. She had the choice to believe God who had been good to her and provided for her or a serpent who only had to lie.

Christians turned the Serpent into Satan. If Satan was meant - they would have used that name.

Also - this serpent was condemned to be a real serpent on the ground for the rest of his life. That is obviously not your Satan idea.

What do you believe was the Serpents intent? Did what he tell her bring her harm or good?

The serpent has usually meant knowledge. My guess is that the "Nachash/Serpent" - whom we are told was part of the first animals creation, - probably represents the KNOWLEDGE in the religions around them, - that they considered evil, or not in-line with God. The Nachash/serpent is just representing the OTHER religions, such as the Babylonian, - with the new religion represented by a "special people" Adam and Chavvah being the story "First" of that line, from God, and following God's Laws.

"Ancient Mesopotamians and Semites believed that snakes were immortal because they could infinitely shed their skin and appear forever youthful, appearing in a fresh guise every time. The Sumerians worshipped a serpent god or goddess named Ningishzida, an ancestor of Gilgamesh. Before the arrival of the Israelites, snake cults were well established in Canaan in the Bronze Age, for archaeologists have uncovered serpent cult objects in Bronze Age strata at several pre-Israelite cities in Canaan: two at Megiddo, one at Gezer, one in the sanctum sanctorum of the Area H temple at Hazor, and two at Shechem.

In the surrounding region, serpent cult objects figured in other cultures. A late Bronze Age Hittite shrine in northern Syria contained a bronze statue of a god holding a serpent in one hand and a staff in the other. In sixth-century Babylon a pair of bronze serpents flanked each of the four doorways of the temple of Esagila. At the Babylonian New Year's festival, the priest was to commission from a woodworker, a metalworker, and a goldsmith two images, one of which "shall hold in its left hand a snake of cedar, raising its right [hand] to the god Nabu". At the tell of Tepe Gawra, at least seventeen Early Bronze Age Assyrian bronze serpents were recovered. ..." Snake worship - Wikipedia

We see the Serpent/Satan/Devil has never been on the side of good or wanted good for man.

So I can ask the question based on knowledge that good and evil cannot come from the same root cause. Just as day and night cannot exist together but each must reign separately one after the other.

So now I have accounted for what I have previously said using the basis for those things. Now account for circular reasoning and why Satan would not be a cause.

Your religion claims YHVH created everything, - thus also creating evil, - or it would not have been there in the Beginnings story, to be used

*
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
If your all-powerful all-knowing God created Satan, then your all-knowing and all-powerful God is responsible for everything that Satan does. God created A&E KNOWING that they would be gullible enough to be fooled by a talking snake (or Satan in disguise according to some), a being that God created for the expressed purpose of fooling his A&E creations. God created Satan with foreknowledge of what Satan would do, so clearly Satan is simply fulfilling God's will. Attempting to separate them into these two opposing forces is suggesting that Satan isn't God's creation, but rather a God unto himself.

Sort of like how you are responsible for everything your children do, good or bad.
 
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SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Sort of like how you are responsible for everything your children do, good or bad.
The difference being that an omnipotent being would know the future implicitly and could easily prevent unpleasantness. If it's all in God's plan then so is Satan. Is Satan a bad guy or is he providing a service for God? Is he merely sorting out the righteous? If Satan wanted to entice people, why is his domain a hell hole, so to speak? Why would he punish people who follows him willingly? Is he actually carrying out God's vision of justice?
As a metaphor or symbol Satan seems to work fine.
Applying logic to the concept brings up all sorts of questions.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
Explain how your omnipotent God knows the future implicitly?? Your God not mine.
 

RESOLUTION

Active Member
Good and Evil are subjective, one man's good is another man's evil. You are still caught up in circular reasoning.
Not when it comes to religion. So no! you cannot use that argument when debating the things a mankind does in the name of religion referencing evil.
 

Notanumber

A Free Man
If there is a god and if he created us I reckon he did so for his own amusement.

Time drags when you are bored.
 

RESOLUTION

Active Member
I don't think that Satan is something or someone who actually does anything. I think the word satan stands for something complicated that exists between people. For instance, if it were possible for only one intelligent creature to exist, there could be no satan.

Define how Satan as a serpent tempted Eve?
How and why would the disciples say:-
King James Bible
Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

We know from Job that Satan is the tempter and we know that God has the final say over life and death.
Jesus never gave into temptation he used the word of God and the truth against Satan.
Job did not sin by blaming God he knew that though God allowed these things he was not the sender
nor was he the author of the things Satan did. We see in Christ God put an end to those thing the accuser fell
when it came to Christ believers. God and the Angels existed all intelligent and powerful in their own dominion and power.

We have to acknowledge that Satan is a real entity and person but not the same as God.
 

RESOLUTION

Active Member
ahem.

Matthew 10:34-37
34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

Makes it kind of hard to figure out what to do, doesn't it? Say what you want about the endorsements of violence and wars of conquest in the Norse pagan beliefs, at least they're internally consistent.

Which if taken as it was meant when said and written then you would know Christians were thrown out of the synagogues and their families did not want anything to do with them.
It is really easy for those who understand the context Christ is speaking in, and what he is referring to.

Look at Saul/Paul he held the cloaks of those who stoned Stephen, he persecuted the followers of Christ. So you appear unable to read the bible in context doing what many do because they don't actually understand what Christ is saying.

John baptised with water and Christ with the Holy Spirit.
Christ brought the word of God. " My words are Spirit and they are life."
Ephesians tells us that as part of the armour of God we are to take the SWORD which the Spirit gives which is the word of God.

17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:


The sword Christ is referring to is the Word of God which he brought and which divides us all. Those who are born of the Spirit have been rejected
by family and others for over 2,000 years. The prophets were murdered by the Jews simply because they did not like the truth.
Not many people do like truth and so they perish. We see Christians were tortured and put to death for the truth.
You need to study the truth of the OT and then you can relate to what is being said in the NT.
 

EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
Not when it comes to religion. So no! you cannot use that argument when debating the things a mankind does in the name of religion referencing evil.
But like so many things, some religions are misinformed about this too. You act as if there is only one religion that makes all the calls.
 
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