Willful Machines: Is AI a Threat to Humanity?

[Nous]

They will do everything that is cost inefficient for humans to do. Humans will still have plenty of things to do. Human produced items, hand made and bespoke goods as well as services, might fetch a premium. As luxury goods/services.

And if everyone's occupation is usurped by machines, how will anyone afford the "luxury goods/services"?

 

[Corvus]

Perhaps I could set it up an account here too....and see what happens when you debate it.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Digital computers are so different architecturally from brains I am highly skeptical that the former will ever exhibit anything akin to consciousness or free will--even if it were true that brains produce consciousness and free will.

We are not talking about digital though. We are talking about neural networks which are made of analogue electronic units which operate based upon principles learned by studying neurons. They also can be simulated in digital computers for purposes of study, although direct analogue electronic neurons are much more efficient. Digital computers would be an entirely different story, so I agree that smart robots or generic service robots will not likely be a digital development they likely will make use of digital and analogue processing. We also do not completely understand the brain, but there are people actively studying brains and simulating them to study how they work. For example there is a mouse brain that is simulated inside of a supercomputer.

If someone is going to provide me with food, shelter, clothing, electricity, internet, phone, transportation, etc., for free, I'm good with that. I just can't envision how that system is going to work.

I cannot either, although it could actually be good in the long run. Few people want the hassle of training employees and paying them. This mean in the very long run, it is likely that consumer culture will cease. Best guess anyone who is a citizen will have robots that produce whatever is needed, and barter will probably replace money. In this case, taxes could even be antiquated. Sorry if this sounds too far fetched, but as you have pointed out I cannot see how such a system will work and can only make far fetched guesses.

No, serious. Musk said everything will be automated, which will produce "social destabilization".

Yes, it will and already is. Go into any grocery store in my state and see that more customers are served by robots than by cashiers. What jobs replace those cashiering jobs? None. Fast food restaurants have already begun to adopt robot vending, too. My library has vending machines that check out books, so the librarians do not have to do it themselves. It also checks the books in. Who wants to hire and deal with employees if they do not have to?

 

[Nous]

You want me to make a functional synthetic copy of a human brain?

If your assertion were a logical deduction from a proposition that can be shown to be a true fact, then you won't need to make "a functional synthetic copy of a human brain".

 

[Corvus]

And if everyone's occupation is usurped by machines, how will anyone afford the "luxury goods/services"?

You are serious?
Tell me what did we do before we invented money or even bartering? Well I can tell you we operated egalitarian systems, communal ownership etc. In the deep future free market capitalism will simply be unsustainable.

 

[Corvus]

If your assertion were a logical deduction from a proposition that can be shown to be a true fact, then you won't need to make "a functional synthetic copy of a human brain".

The proposition involves full understanding of how brains function, which we don't have, so it is a hypothetical suggestion that is logically consistent, I know you struggle with this premise, but there is nothing else I can say.

 

[Augustus]

No, serious. Musk said everything will be automated, which will produce "social destabilization".

There could potentially be significantly increased unemployment rates which could lead to societal problems =/= no one will have any jobs whatsoever and everyone will be unemployed because 100% of everything is automated.

Simple enough for you?

 

[Corvus]

There could potentially be significantly increased unemployment rates which could lead to societal problems =/= no one will have any jobs whatsoever and everyone will be unemployed because 100% of everything is automated.

We will have to abandon free market economics and adopt perhaps a system of allowance and communal ownership, essentially a rationing system, based on various parameters.

 

[Nous]

We are not talking about digital though. We are talking about neural networks which are made of analogue electronic units which operate based upon principles learned by studying neurons. They also can be simulated in digital computers for purposes of study, although direct analogue electronic neurons are much more efficient. Digital computers would be an entirely different story, so I agree that smart robots or generic service robots will not likely be a digital development they likely will make use of digital and analogue processing. We also do not completely understand the brain, but there are people actively studying brains and simulating them to study how they work. For example there is a mouse brain that is simulated inside of a supercomputer.

I assume no one claims that simulated mouse brain inside the supercomputer is sentient like a mouse is. But, then why shouldn't it be sentient, if one only needs a functional copy of brain in order to produce sentience?

I cannot either, although it could actually be good in the long run. Few people want the hassle of training employees and paying them. This mean in the very long run, it is likely that consumer culture will cease. Best guess anyone who is a citizen will have robots that produce whatever is needed, and barter will probably replace money. In this case, taxes could even be antiquated. Sorry if this sounds too far fetched, but as you have pointed out I cannot see how such a system will work and can only make far fetched guesses.

Yes, it will and already is. Go into any grocery store in my state and see that more customers are served by robots than by cashiers. What jobs replace those cashiering jobs? None. Fast food restaurants have already begun to adopt robot vending, too. My library has vending machines that check out books, so the librarians do not have to do it themselves. It also checks the books in. Who wants to hire and deal with employees if they do not have to?

Yes, it's easy to imagine everything being automated. Of course, it will require at least a small labor force to tend to the machines.

 

[Corvus]

Yes, it's easy to imagine everything being automated. Of course, it will require at least a small labor force to tend to the machines.

Use robots.

 

[Nous]

We will have to abandon free market economics and adopt perhaps a system of allowance and communal ownership, essentially a rationing system, based on various parameters.

Yeah, something like that.

 

[Corvus]

. But, then why shouldn't it be sentient, if one only needs a functional copy of brain in order to produce sentience?

If only we could simulate a mouse brain faithfully could we find out.

 

[Corvus]

Yeah, something like that.

The hammer and sickle wins in the end....lol.

 

[Nous]

The hammer and sickle wins in the end....lol.

In the age of complete automation, I suppose we can feed ourselves by eating soylent green.

 

[Nous]

If only we could simulate a mouse brain faithfully could we find out.

The simulation isn't faithful?

 

[Corvus]

In the age of complete automation, I suppose we can feed ourselves by eating soylent green.

Scientists have ways of creating more calorific value and nutrition in a vat than a whole field of Cows or Corn. It might well be processed GM bacteria synthesized proteins and fats in your future burgers. Enjoy comrade citizen GN76011X with the compliments of the state.

 

[Corvus]

The simulation isn't faithful?

It can't be, human brains are mammal brains, we don't even know how information is encoded in neurons or how memories are retrieved, let alone map billions of neuron connections and understand how they are configured to interact systematically in a mouse brain. Unless I have not been updated myself.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I assume no one claims that simulated mouse brain inside the supercomputer is sentient like a mouse is. But, then why shouldn't it be sentient, if one only needs a functional copy of brain in order to produce sentience?

No, its not sentient without a body. That would never work. They study it to understand its biochemistry that's all. At the moment what they have now are walking robots which use neural networks, AI projects like IBM's Watson that uses them, visual tech that uses them for processing images, and self guided vehicles. We do not have anything that is self-aware, but that is not necessary for total economic disruption.

Yes, it's easy to imagine everything being automated. Of course, it will require at least a small labor force to tend to the machines.

I don't have any idea what will happen, but I know that its not likely to be easy for the next hundred years as we transition to an economy where machines can do so much more than ever. I think it will be quite a difficult time period.

 

[Augustus]

We will have to abandon free market economics and adopt perhaps a system of allowance and communal ownership, essentially a rationing system, based on various parameters.

A guaranteed minimum income is another possibility and also fits in well with increasingly ad-hoc working arrangements that are a likely aspect of the future economy.

Everyone receives a fixed stipend which can be supplemented by additional work.

 

[Corvus]

A guaranteed minimum income is another possibility and also fits in well with increasingly ad-hoc working arrangements that are a likely aspect of the future economy.

Everyone receives a fixed stipend which can be supplemented by additional work.

Indeed, it will be a gradual transition to a more tightly controlled economic system, most likely.