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Will Don Find the Ark?

nPeace

Veteran Member
noahsark.jpg


The pictures of the Ark claimed to be seen by eyewitnesses, are a match to the description of the Ark mentioned in the Bible.
The efforts of men who are sincerely seeking the truth is, I suppose, lauded by many.
However, risking your life to prove the truth to skeptics is a huge sacrifice.
I'm not sure any amount of proof will change the minds of people who set their mind in concrete.

To me, it is evident the Bible contains the truth.
I believe if it's God's will to reveal this truth, then it will be.
What's involved here, is a huge risk of life though, so I am not sure this is what God would want.
Stay safe guys.

The part related to this thread is just the first hour and thirteen minutes (1:13)

 

sooda

Veteran Member
RSR Week: Exposing a False Claim of Finding Noah's Ark ...
Home | KGOV.comark-fraud
Mar 18, 2011 · * Dr. Don Patton in the RSR Studio: The scientist who debunked the claimed 2010 sighting of Noah's Ark, Dr. Don Patton, talks to Bob Enyart about his ascent up Mt. Ararat to investigate that claim. See Dr. Patton, and two scientists including one of Turkey's leading seismologists in this conclusive 14-minute video exposing the fraud , the exposé web page , and this conclusive …
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
RSR Week: Exposing a False Claim of Finding Noah's Ark ...
Home | KGOV.comark-fraud
Mar 18, 2011 · * Dr. Don Patton in the RSR Studio: The scientist who debunked the claimed 2010 sighting of Noah's Ark, Dr. Don Patton, talks to Bob Enyart about his ascent up Mt. Ararat to investigate that claim. See Dr. Patton, and two scientists including one of Turkey's leading seismologists in this conclusive 14-minute video exposing the fraud , the exposé web page , and this conclusive …
I'm not following.
Dr. Don Patton exposes a false claim. Was that his claim, or another claim?
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
Based on the various genetic traits: shapes, sizes and races of people, there couldn't possibly have really been a human bottleneck population of merely some few persons within the last few thousand generations.

"Effective population size (Ne) determines the amount of genetic variation, genetic drift, and linkage disequilibrium (LD) in populations. Here, we present the first genome-wide estimates of human effective population size from LD data. Chromosome-specific effective population size was estimated for all autosomes and the X chromosome from estimated LD between SNP pairs <100 kb apart. We account for variation in recombination rate by using coalescent-based estimates of fine-scale recombination rate from one sample and correlating these with LD in an independent sample. Phase I of the HapMap project produced between 18 and 22 million SNP pairs in samples from four populations: Yoruba from Ibadan (YRI), Nigeria; Japanese from Tokyo (JPT); Han Chinese from Beijing (HCB); and residents from Utah with ancestry from northern and western Europe (CEU). For CEU, JPT, and HCB, the estimate of effective population size, adjusted for SNP ascertainment bias, was ∼3100,whereas the estimate for the YRI was ∼7500, consistent with the out-of-Africa theory of ancestral human population expansion and concurrent bottlenecks."

Recent human effective population size estimated from linkage disequilibrium

Logo of genores
Genome Res. 2007 Apr; 17(4): 520–526.
doi: 10.1101/gr.6023607
PMCID: PMC1832099
PMID: 17351134
Recent human effective population size estimated from linkage disequilibrium
Albert Tenesa, Pau Navarro, Ben J. Hayes, David L. Duffy, Geraldine M. Clarke, Mike E. Goddard, and Peter M. Visscher3,

Apparently, the effective population size is far greater than 8.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Based on the various genetic traits: shapes, sizes and races of people, there couldn't possibly have really been a human bottleneck population of merely some few persons within the last few thousand generations.

"Effective population size (Ne) determines the amount of genetic variation, genetic drift, and linkage disequilibrium (LD) in populations. Here, we present the first genome-wide estimates of human effective population size from LD data. Chromosome-specific effective population size was estimated for all autosomes and the X chromosome from estimated LD between SNP pairs <100 kb apart. We account for variation in recombination rate by using coalescent-based estimates of fine-scale recombination rate from one sample and correlating these with LD in an independent sample. Phase I of the HapMap project produced between 18 and 22 million SNP pairs in samples from four populations: Yoruba from Ibadan (YRI), Nigeria; Japanese from Tokyo (JPT); Han Chinese from Beijing (HCB); and residents from Utah with ancestry from northern and western Europe (CEU). For CEU, JPT, and HCB, the estimate of effective population size, adjusted for SNP ascertainment bias, was ∼3100,whereas the estimate for the YRI was ∼7500, consistent with the out-of-Africa theory of ancestral human population expansion and concurrent bottlenecks."

Recent human effective population size estimated from linkage disequilibrium

Logo of genores
Genome Res. 2007 Apr; 17(4): 520–526.
doi: 10.1101/gr.6023607
PMCID: PMC1832099
PMID: 17351134
Recent human effective population size estimated from linkage disequilibrium
Albert Tenesa, Pau Navarro, Ben J. Hayes, David L. Duffy, Geraldine M. Clarke, Mike E. Goddard, and Peter M. Visscher3,

Apparently, the effective population size is far greater than 8.
Could you give me a rough estimate of how many persons the human bottleneck population would have required, and the figures, on how you worked it out. Thanks
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
Could you give me a rough estimate of how many persons the human bottleneck population would have required, and the figures, on how you worked it out. Thanks

Human genetic diversity is too great for there to have ever been a human population size that consisted of much less than ca. 10,000 individuals. Pairwise Sequentially Markovian Coalescent (PSMC) analysis confirms a population bottleneck in humans that consisted of no fewer than probably ca. 10,000 individuals. (Li, Heng and Durbin, Richard ) "Inference of Human Population History from Individual Whole-Genome Sequences" Nature International Weekly Journal of Science 28 July 2001 http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v47...10231.html

If there were the most severe population bottlenecking such as one breeding pair that is portrayed in the case of the Biblical Adam and Eve, then there would be a maximum of 4 alleles passed on by Adam and Eve to their children. Furthermore, the subsequent inbreeding would cause some loss of alleles due to genetic drifting. There would not have been genetic diversity in the small group of Adam, Eve and their children who would've had to commit incest among each other for the procreation of their inbred children. A lack of genetic diversity would have persisted for thousands of generations until genetic mutations could cause the genetic diversity of today's population. Based on the number of different alleles there are for the number of genes within the current population and the known rate of mutations per nucleotide sites in humans, geneticists can calculate the minimum number of people needed to create the current amount of genetic diversity. Numerous genetic studies suggest that there were several thousands of people more than two people during the most severe population bottleneck which ever occurred in human history.

DNA segments (Alu repeats ) insert themselves at various chromosomal locations. There are various forms of Alu sequences and several thousand families of Alu. One well-studied family of Alu is called Ya5, which has been inserted into human chromosomes at 57 mapped locations. If we were to have descended from a single pair of ancestors such as Adam and Eve, then we all would have each of the 57 elements inserted at the same location points of our chromosomes. "However, the human population consists of groups of people who share some insertion points but not others. The multiple shared categories make it clear that although a human population bottleneck occurred, it was definitely never as small as two. In fact, this line of evidence also indicates that there were at least several thousand people when the population was at its smallest". ( Venema, Dennis and Falk, Darrel ) " Does genetics Point to a Single Primal Couple?" 5 April 2001 http://biologos.org/blog/does-genetics-p...mal-couple
Coalescent theory analysis of single nucleotide polymorphism and linkage disequilibrium indicates the mean effective population size for hominid lineage is 100,000 individuals over the course of the last 30 million years. "The effective population size estimated from linkage disequilibrium is a minimum of ca, 10,000 followed by an expansion in the last 20,000 years." ( Tenesa, Albert, Navarro, Paul, Hayes, Ben J., Duffy, David L., Clarke, Geraldine, Goodard, Mike E. and Visscher, Peter M. ) " Recent Human Effective Population Size Estimated from Linkage Disequilibrium" Genome Research 17 April 2007 Ancestral Population Genomics: The Coalescent Hidden Markov Model Approach

Indeed, there is ample genetic evidence that the Biblical Adam and Eve never existed.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
We found Troy, we've found several sunken cities, lost and secret cities, hidden underground labyrinths and catacombs previously lost to time; we have not found this alleged ark after all this time. Its either decayed into nothing, or never existed.
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
Human genetic diversity is too great for there to have ever been a human population size that consisted of much less than ca. 10,000 individuals. Pairwise Sequentially Markovian Coalescent (PSMC) analysis confirms a population bottleneck in humans that consisted of no fewer than probably ca. 10,000 individuals. (Li, Heng and Durbin, Richard ) "Inference of Human Population History from Individual Whole-Genome Sequences" Nature International Weekly Journal of Science 28 July 2001 http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v47...10231.html

If there were the most severe population bottlenecking such as one breeding pair that is portrayed in the case of the Biblical Adam and Eve, then there would be a maximum of 4 alleles passed on by Adam and Eve to their children. Furthermore, the subsequent inbreeding would cause some loss of alleles due to genetic drifting. There would not have been genetic diversity in the small group of Adam, Eve and their children who would've had to commit incest among each other for the procreation of their inbred children. A lack of genetic diversity would have persisted for thousands of generations until genetic mutations could cause the genetic diversity of today's population. Based on the number of different alleles there are for the number of genes within the current population and the known rate of mutations per nucleotide sites in humans, geneticists can calculate the minimum number of people needed to create the current amount of genetic diversity. Numerous genetic studies suggest that there were several thousands of people more than two people during the most severe population bottleneck which ever occurred in human history.

DNA segments (Alu repeats ) insert themselves at various chromosomal locations. There are various forms of Alu sequences and several thousand families of Alu. One well-studied family of Alu is called Ya5, which has been inserted into human chromosomes at 57 mapped locations. If we were to have descended from a single pair of ancestors such as Adam and Eve, then we all would have each of the 57 elements inserted at the same location points of our chromosomes. "However, the human population consists of groups of people who share some insertion points but not others. The multiple shared categories make it clear that although a human population bottleneck occurred, it was definitely never as small as two. In fact, this line of evidence also indicates that there were at least several thousand people when the population was at its smallest". ( Venema, Dennis and Falk, Darrel ) " Does genetics Point to a Single Primal Couple?" 5 April 2001 http://biologos.org/blog/does-genetics-p...mal-couple
Coalescent theory analysis of single nucleotide polymorphism and linkage disequilibrium indicates the mean effective population size for hominid lineage is 100,000 individuals over the course of the last 30 million years. "The effective population size estimated from linkage disequilibrium is a minimum of ca, 10,000 followed by an expansion in the last 20,000 years." ( Tenesa, Albert, Navarro, Paul, Hayes, Ben J., Duffy, David L., Clarke, Geraldine, Goodard, Mike E. and Visscher, Peter M. ) " Recent Human Effective Population Size Estimated from Linkage Disequilibrium" Genome Research 17 April 2007 Ancestral Population Genomics: The Coalescent Hidden Markov Model Approach

Indeed, there is ample genetic evidence that the Biblical Adam and Eve never existed.
And equal evidence against human life started over about 4,300 years ago with Noah and his family consisting of only 8 individuals. Still not enough numbers and time to achieve the diversity we see today.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
instead of listening to liars for Jesus you should try to learn how and why we know that there was no flood.
Again?
Human genetic diversity is too great for there to have ever been a human population size that consisted of much less than ca. 10,000 individuals. Pairwise Sequentially Markovian Coalescent (PSMC) analysis confirms a population bottleneck in humans that consisted of no fewer than probably ca. 10,000 individuals. (Li, Heng and Durbin, Richard ) "Inference of Human Population History from Individual Whole-Genome Sequences" Nature International Weekly Journal of Science 28 July 2001 http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v47...10231.html

If there were the most severe population bottlenecking such as one breeding pair that is portrayed in the case of the Biblical Adam and Eve, then there would be a maximum of 4 alleles passed on by Adam and Eve to their children. Furthermore, the subsequent inbreeding would cause some loss of alleles due to genetic drifting. There would not have been genetic diversity in the small group of Adam, Eve and their children who would've had to commit incest among each other for the procreation of their inbred children. A lack of genetic diversity would have persisted for thousands of generations until genetic mutations could cause the genetic diversity of today's population. Based on the number of different alleles there are for the number of genes within the current population and the known rate of mutations per nucleotide sites in humans, geneticists can calculate the minimum number of people needed to create the current amount of genetic diversity. Numerous genetic studies suggest that there were several thousands of people more than two people during the most severe population bottleneck which ever occurred in human history.

DNA segments (Alu repeats ) insert themselves at various chromosomal locations. There are various forms of Alu sequences and several thousand families of Alu. One well-studied family of Alu is called Ya5, which has been inserted into human chromosomes at 57 mapped locations. If we were to have descended from a single pair of ancestors such as Adam and Eve, then we all would have each of the 57 elements inserted at the same location points of our chromosomes. "However, the human population consists of groups of people who share some insertion points but not others. The multiple shared categories make it clear that although a human population bottleneck occurred, it was definitely never as small as two. In fact, this line of evidence also indicates that there were at least several thousand people when the population was at its smallest". ( Venema, Dennis and Falk, Darrel ) " Does genetics Point to a Single Primal Couple?" 5 April 2001 http://biologos.org/blog/does-genetics-p...mal-couple
Coalescent theory analysis of single nucleotide polymorphism and linkage disequilibrium indicates the mean effective population size for hominid lineage is 100,000 individuals over the course of the last 30 million years. "The effective population size estimated from linkage disequilibrium is a minimum of ca, 10,000 followed by an expansion in the last 20,000 years." ( Tenesa, Albert, Navarro, Paul, Hayes, Ben J., Duffy, David L., Clarke, Geraldine, Goodard, Mike E. and Visscher, Peter M. ) " Recent Human Effective Population Size Estimated from Linkage Disequilibrium" Genome Research 17 April 2007 Ancestral Population Genomics: The Coalescent Hidden Markov Model Approach

Indeed, there is ample genetic evidence that the Biblical Adam and Eve never existed.
I'm no scientist, and would need to see the figures and data, for this, in order to agree, or disagree. I will research it, and perhaps ask a scientist about it, and get back to you.
Question though. What if mutations started immediately at procreation?
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
We found Troy, we've found several sunken cities, lost and secret cities, hidden underground labyrinths and catacombs previously lost to time; we have not found this alleged ark after all this time. Its either decayed into nothing, or never existed.
All the evidence says it never existed.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
We found Troy, we've found several sunken cities, lost and secret cities, hidden underground labyrinths and catacombs previously lost to time; we have not found this alleged ark after all this time. Its either decayed into nothing, or never existed.
I don't believe anyone will. It was not made of stone, or steel.
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
Again?

I'm no scientist, and would need to see the figures and data, for this, in order to agree, or disagree. I will research it, and perhaps ask a scientist about it, and get back to you.
Question though. What if mutations started immediately at procreation?
Then the organism the mutations started in would have tumors and cancer. That is what mutations in an existing organism means.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
Again?

I'm no scientist, and would need to see the figures and data, for this, in order to agree, or disagree. I will research it, and perhaps ask a scientist about it, and get back to you.
Question though. What if mutations started immediately at procreation?

The observed rate of mutations does not get us to our current human gene pool diversity from just 2 persons within some few thousand generations. Evolutionary change does not work that quickly.

Why or how do you think all the different genetic traits, shapes, sizes and races of people could have come into being from just the limited genetic diversity of 8 persons of ca. 4,500 years B.P.?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Again?

I'm no scientist, and would need to see the figures and data, for this, in order to agree, or disagree. I will research it, and perhaps ask a scientist about it, and get back to you.
Question though. What if mutations started immediately at procreation?
No, first you need to learn what is and what is not evidence and why there is no evidence for your views. By the way, it is not due to ebil scientists (Mwa-ha_ha!). The lack of evidence is due to the cowardice of creationists.

And you do not understand basic biology. Mutations that make changes in our genome occur in the formation of gametes. Mutations after conception cannot solve your dilemma.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
noahsark.jpg


The pictures of the Ark claimed to be seen by eyewitnesses, are a match to the description of the Ark mentioned in the Bible.
The efforts of men who are sincerely seeking the truth is, I suppose, lauded by many.
However, risking your life to prove the truth to skeptics is a huge sacrifice.
I'm not sure any amount of proof will change the minds of people who set their mind in concrete.

To me, it is evident the Bible contains the truth.
I believe if it's God's will to reveal this truth, then it will be.
What's involved here, is a huge risk of life though, so I am not sure this is what God would want.
Stay safe guys.

The part related to this thread is just the first hour and thirteen minutes (1:13)

Dude that picture is so obviously photoshopped it's comical.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
The observed rate of mutations does not get us to our current human gene pool diversity from just 2 persons within some few thousand generations. Evolutionary change does not work that quickly.
You are thinking of evolutionary change in what sense?

Why or how do you think all the different genetic traits, shapes, sizes and races of people could have come into being from just the limited genetic diversity of 8 persons of ca. 4,500 years B.P.?
Each time procreation takes place, is there not gene transfer and flow taking place? Who decides the rate? We don't know how different man may have been from the present.

As I said though, I need to research it.
I don't like to speculate, on things I know little about.
I feel more comfortable discussing something for which I have a reasonable understanding.

So let me get back to you on this a little later.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
All eight of the videos in this playlist total to a time shorter than the video in the OP:

How Aron Ra Disproves Noah's flood - YouTube

Here is the first video. It is based upon a Christian paper, demonstrating that one does not need to believe all of the myths of the Bible to be a Christian:

3 minutes into the video, and already I found misrepresentations of the Bible's statements of the Flood!

A shame, really.
 
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