Corkscrew
I'm ready to believe
This is the way man wrote the fairy tale.
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Why would God send good people to Hell just because they dont believe he exists?
- Thread starter Lord_Dweedle
- Start date
This is the way man wrote the fairy tale.
Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
Birddog, I have had a question within me for awhile now about Jehovah's Wittnesses.
For you, what is the point of even going to church if you are not one of the 144,000?
If you are evil, you guys believe you cease to exist, and if you are good you go to paradise. You can be a good person and not go to church, so what is the point?
I have my own beliefs on the subject and was wondering about yours.
For you, what is the point of even going to church if you are not one of the 144,000?
If you are evil, you guys believe you cease to exist, and if you are good you go to paradise. You can be a good person and not go to church, so what is the point?
I have my own beliefs on the subject and was wondering about yours.
waitasec
Veteran Member
are you going to say the same thing to those who would think that flying into office buildings is a good thing?
waitasec
Veteran Member
well lets just take this to the worst possible scenario...the one who had the food would do anything to fend off offenders. it's kill or be killed. and you know that was a reality at one point or another. it's about survival. an instinct we all have.
so given this dire situation, in the eyes of god, would the starving one, trying to do anything he can to survive, doing something wrong/evil?
lets look at the children in somalia...does god want them to live? i'm sure their praying for food and water...
you see, your response of "there is always prayer" really doesn't do it for me. it's a non answer and the reason it's a non answer is because i believe this presents a quandary for you. and why is it a quandary? because i believe it isn't what you want it to be, easy. see i have no problem saying the starving person is justified as the one who has the food is justified in defending himself. because i have empathy for both of them. i do not live under an illusion of this idea that right and wrong are black and white issues...it's all relative. even in todays world finding a job is almost the same thing. 2 ppl looking for the same position in order to make a living...one lives with his parents and is in a secure situation the other has a family to feed. now just because the one who has a family to feed isn't as qualified as the one who lives with his parents, should he still get the job because of his predicament? no, the world doesn't work like that.
it's survival of the fittest, natural selection as it were... indifference.
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Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
This conversation reminds me of the movie 17 miracles about the Mormon Handcart Pioneers and the experiences that they had faced, crossing the plains. During the times of starvation, when they were reduced to peeling raw hide off the carts and chewing on that because there was nothing else to eat. The Lord provided for them. Miracles happened that kept a great many of them alive.
My honest opinion on the matter of Somolia is I'm quite sure that many of the starving children in Somalia are praying for food. I believe that God holds those who have the ability to help, who don't help, accountable for their actions. Sometimes the Lord calls men to do his bidding. The United States has the land, it has been called the breadbasket of the world. If the United States wanted to end world hunger, it could, but where would there be any money in that? They actually have the nerve to pay people not to grow certain crops. How ridiculous can it get when there are starving people in Somalia. *roll my eyes* People can be so selfish. I am thankful that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has a number of church farms that they use to help feed the poor throughout the world. (not saying we are the only church that does that.)
In the fact that God calls some men to do his bidding, that is the very reason I am in the Army National Guard. The Lord called me to serve, so I'm here to serve. As I have thought about my calling since then, I have thought about the horrible things that took place in the Holocaust, when bad men were in power. Part of the reason I am in the military is to help out in situations like the Holocaust. Saddam Hussein was committing acts of genocide, and the Lord called those who were able to go and put an end to it.
waitasec
Veteran Member
but that doesn't do anything... those children are still suffering...needlessly...
where are the miracles? why have they ceased when it matters most?
imo, your own personal moral sense told you to do that
there is no fact of god calling people to do his bidding. if that is the case, then what is the difference between you joining the army national guard or people flying into buildings...? none. because these convictions are seen as god calling someone to do something. those guys that did that where under the impression they would go to paradise. what makes you think they were wrong...god or your own moral sense?
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Birddog
Member
Excellent questions. Rather than hijack this thread, why not start a new thread on the subject? My work schedule is sporadic so my appearances here will be also.
I know of some other Witnesses that post here also, I'm sure they would like to contribute also.
But to answer the immediate question;
It's true, I am not of the 144,000 but the meetings are where we get a continuous spiritual feeding and encouragement from others. Ours is a congregation of Bible education, not of emotionalisic outbursts and other shallow pursuits.
Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
The Official Website [go directly to the horse's mouth so to speak] is:
Jehovah's Witnesses: Watchtower Society Official Web Site
www.watchtower.org
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Official websites definitely have a place on forums such as this, but I'd far rather just hear people explain their religious beliefs in their own words.
Although not Birddog, if I may take the liberty to comment.
Do you believe Romans [3v23,9] that: all have sinned?
True a person can be relatively good such as the neighborly good Samaritan.
But does that make that good Samaritan not a sinner?
Some people only think of being good or bad/evil instead of being a sinner.
All should recognize that we all make mistakes even when we don't want to.
We all have undesirable traits or do some bad or wrong things.
Yet, sometimes people wonder why they and others are like that.
Attending Kingdom Hall meetings [Bible education] answers such thoughts.
Doesn't sin lead to death according to Romans 6vs23,7 ?
That would mean we are all born with a fatal flaw [sin] which we can not cure so our sin [wrongdoing] leads to 'inherited death'
'Inherited death' meaning death passed down to us from father Adam.
The cure for sin and death lies with Jesus ransom sacrifice for us. Mt 20v28.
We can not resurrect oneself or another so we someone that can do that for us. Jesus can and he will. Resurrect some to reign with him and serve as kings and priests during his 1000-year reign over earth. Rev 20v6; 5vs9,10
'Kings' to take care of governmental needs of subjects, and 'priests' to take care of their spiritual needs. 'Needs' of earthly subjects that Jesus,
as crowned king of God's kingdom, will have subjects from one end of earth to the other end of earth according to Psalm 72v8.
Like any other seat of government, God's kingdom, also has subjects.
The subjects or citizens are not the governing body but rather the majority that are under the care and concern of those governing.
So, whether being part of those of Rev. [5 vs9,10;14 vs1,3,4],
or earthly subjects of God's kingdom, we 'all' need as Hebrew 10v25 says:
Not to forsake the gathering of ourselves together.
Meetings are survival classes- Rev 7v14.
Survival too for those living sheep-like ones of Matthew [25 vs31,32]
who are alive on earth at the time of Jesus separating peoples one from another. The humble 'sheep' can remain alive and keep on living right into the start of Jesus millennial reign over earth when Jesus ushers in Peace on Earth.
While Jesus 'brothers' [of Matthew 25v40 1st Cor 15v50] are heaven bound.
Hope the ^above^ is of some help.
Katzpur, I agree with you.
Wasn't it 'yaddoe' who posted something about a new thread instead of the official site of Jehovah's Witnesses: Watchtower Society Official Web Site ?
Since I knew the official site is the only reason I posted it in reply to yaddoe.
Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
So no religious requirement to attend church, it is more so just a place to learn more about the scriptures?
I read through one of your watchtower panflets and my other question is where in the Bible does it say God is like a Heavenly Father? I have never read the like in there anywhere.
I read through one of your watchtower panflets and my other question is where in the Bible does it say God is like a Heavenly Father? I have never read the like in there anywhere.
Are we talking about the model prayer? Our Father which art in heaven......
Matt 6v9; Luke 11v2
Jesus mentions his Father as being in heaven [Heavenly Father] at Mt 5v48
Please notice in the Bible 'heavenly Father' at:
Matthew 6v14; 6v26; 6v32; 15v13; 18v35;23v9
Would you call Hebrews [10v25] a religious requirement ?
There it mentions: Not to forsake assembling together.......
Jesus required no one to follow him.
'Required' in the sense of being made or forced to do something.
However, yes Christians are to assemble [attend religious meetings]
of their own free will.
Doesn't John [17v3] stress how important it is to know God and Jesus?
Know in the sense of having accurate knowledge or education about them.
Jesus assures us at Matthew [18v20] that when 2 or more are gathered together in his name that he is there with them.
At meetings there are more than one so Jesus is there with them.
Hope the above is of some help.
Do you think Jesus is crowned king of God's kingdom ?
-Daniel 7vs13,14; 2v44
Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
I still haven't seen the word "Like" anywhere. Did the Jehovah's Witnesses add that word?
Blackdog22
Well-Known Member
And why is sin considered a rejection of God? Was that not Gods rule? Does God not make up the rules? Is sin not just an imaginary state of what is considered wrong by God? God makes everything and could of made this anyway he wants. If he makes the rules that we are seperated from him because we do something that he calls sin from the moment we are born, because he deems it so, then that is still God sending us to hell. His rules, he is accountable for those rules.
Just as Hitler is accountable for the rule that all Jews must die. It isn't the Jews fault for being Jews and thus their fault for not bowing down to Hitler or changing who they are, it is Hitlers fault.
Lets say I make up a rule tomorrow that my 3 year old son can't eat candy. If he eats candy I decide to call this sin. Why? Just because, I am in charge and can hurt my son, thus he has to obey me. If my son eats Candy then I decide that that he has "rejected" me and I throw him in a garbage can. You actually and honestly would consider this to be perfect love? Sounds pretty sick and twisted to me. Funny how people are so irrational when it comes to God. Why?
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Blackdog22
Well-Known Member
I don't see why not. He punished Adam and Eve when they had no knowledge of right and wrong. This God has no morals. We are all screwed if he exists.
As a matter of fact he punished all of mankind for this. I don't see how anyone can see any good coming from this being. Especially since he is 2/2 on failed creations.
Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
Without Jesus Christ, all would have been lost, and it would of been better if we had never been born. Jesus Christ played an essential part in God's plan, making it so we can recover from our mistakes and making it so we can return to live with our Heavenly Father. None of God's plan makes any sense without the role of Jesus Christ our savior. Through Him, all our sufferings will be made worth it in the end.
Blackdog22
Well-Known Member
Only if God deemed it so. Just because God deems us lost if we don't accept that he sent his son to be murdered for us eating an apple, doesn't make God any more worthy of worship, it also doesn't make his plan any more admirable.
wayward_teen
Beautiful Disaster
I agree. Mormons insist that in a previous life I *chose* to be part of their God's plan. I think it's a really stupid plan and I won't take any BS concerning what I "already chose".
I would only want to worship a God who allowed for religious differences in the first place. It shouldn't matter what you believe in, but rather what you choose to do about it.