Why There Can be an Objective Morality Even Without a God

[Sunstone]

I often hear some statement along the lines of, "If a god does not exist, then there can be no objective morality".

As it happens, that sort of statement suffers greatly from the misfortune of being false.

It is possible, for example, that Platonic forms or ideals of morality exist even though no god exists.

Note: I am not attempting here to present an argument for the existence of an objective morality.

 

[DanishCrow]

I wonder where you hear these statements. In my faith, no one would ever say such a thing, as our gods are the embodiments of subjective morality.

If you're not presenting an argument for objective morality, why then pontificate on its existance with or without gods? Some people just like to read themselves write, I guess.

 

[Sunstone]

I wonder where you hear these statements. In my faith, no one would ever say such a thing, as our gods are the embodiments of subjective morality.

Yes, but who has heard of your faith?

If you're not presenting an argument for objective morality, why then pontificate on its existance with or without gods? Some people just like to read themselves write, I guess.

Are you saying you're incapable of thinking outside the box? That's a curious thing to admit to.

 

[ChristineM]

I often hear some statement along the lines of, "If a god does not exist, then there can be no objective morality".

As it happens, that sort of statement suffers greatly from the misfortune of being false.

It is possible, for example, that Platonic forms or ideals of morality exist even though no god exists.

Note: I am not attempting here to present an argument for the existence of an objective morality.

It seems that long before religion was born, morality, existed. Recent research suggests many animals, particularly mammals are moral creatures

Animals Are Moral Creatures, Scientist Argues

Without morality civilization could not have developed and hence no religion. Which in turn could not have said "thats ours and everyone else is inferior because you dont have morality now"

 

[icehorse]

Since we're in a debate forum, I'll add a little fuel to the fire:

Personally, I find it insulting to be told that I don't know how to be moral without the intervention of some invisible, supernatural being. And even more, I trust much more a person who acting morally because it's want they want to do, than a person who is acting morally out of a fear of god.

 

[crossfire]

The thing is: we process and interpret all of our sensory information, thoughts and feelings subjectively. If morality is objective, it would be something that could be sensed, just as we sense thoughts, visual info, etc. Animals and empathetic people can sense emotions that occur within other beings subjective minds. So, if morality is something that can be sensed, is it someting we sense within others and send back out, or is it something residing within the collective unconscious, or is it something within objective reality itself?

 

[David T]

Yes, but who has heard of your faith?



Are you saying you're incapable of thinking outside the box? That's a curious thing to admit to.

Now thats funny.

 

[joe1776]

The judgments of conscience make morality objective. No God required.

Case #1. The facts indicate an unjustified killing
Case #2 The facts indicate a killing in a clear case of self defense

If you present these two cases to unbiased juries in any culture in the world, you will get the same judgments. The judgments of conscience are objective.

They seem subjective only because there are tons of biases created by the weak reasoning minds of people for any number of reasons. For example, a Christian who interprets the Sixth Commandment as an absolute rule will find that the killer in Case #2 has sinned. His minority opinion doesn't make morality subjective; it makes him wrong.

 

[Nous]

I often hear some statement along the lines of, "If a god does not exist, then there can be no objective morality".

As it happens, that sort of statement suffers greatly from the misfortune of being false.

It is possible, for example, that Platonic forms or ideals of morality exist even though no god exists.

Note: I am not attempting here to present an argument for the existence of an objective morality.

Thank you for noting this. It seems it shouldn't need to be said.

 

[Nous]

It seems that long before religion was born, morality, existed. Recent research suggests many animals, particularly mammals are moral creatures

Animals Are Moral Creatures, Scientist Argues

Yeah, lots of animals exhibit behaviors that would be considered moral if done by a human. Yours is another point that seems shouldn't even need to be said.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

We can say what is objectively moral according to a given set of standards, but there are no cosmic laws or any other measurements to say there is objective morality.

 

[ChristineM]

Yeah, lots of animals exhibit behaviors that would be considered moral if done by a human. Yours is another point that seems shouldn't even need to be said.

Unfortunately it does need to be said, so many "humans" are of the mind, 'no animals nor any human not the same religion as me, have morality'

The number of times is see 'atheists are not moral' or similar is really quite sad.

 

[sun rise]

Being in an argumentative mood, I could assert that even if someone does not believe in God, God created the universe so that evolution would inevitably result in morality starting in non-human animals.

 

[BSM1]

I often hear some statement along the lines of, "If a god does not exist, then there can be no objective morality".

As it happens, that sort of statement suffers greatly from the misfortune of being false.

It is possible, for example, that Platonic forms or ideals of morality exist even though no god exists.

Note: I am not attempting here to present an argument for the existence of an objective morality.

Since we're in a debate forum, I'll add a little fuel to the fire:

Personally, I find it insulting to be told that I don't know how to be moral without the intervention of some invisible, supernatural being. And even more, I trust much more a person who acting morally because it's want they want to do, than a person who is acting morally out of a fear of god.

Not that I disagree, but who (or what) decides what is or what is not moral? It would seem that morality by it's very existence is subjective.

 

[ChristineM]

Being in an argumentative mood, I could assert that even if someone does not believe in God, God created the universe so that evolution would inevitably result in morality starting in non-human animals.

And someone else could assert, what god? Is there proof that god created the universe, is there proof a god even exists. Without proof all you have is assertion.

 

[oldbadger]

I often hear some statement along the lines of, "If a god does not exist, then there can be no objective morality".

As it happens, that sort of statement suffers greatly from the misfortune of being false.

It is possible, for example, that Platonic forms or ideals of morality exist even though no god exists.

Note: I am not attempting here to present an argument for the existence of an objective morality.

I don't think so......
If there is natural morality then it's possible for mankind to be objectively moral........ but I doubt it.

I'll give one short maxim which I think can show that mankind has no objective morality. >>>>>>>

Power Corrupts!
And Absolute Power Corrupts, Absolutely!

Now..... where is the objective morality?

 

[sun rise]

And someone else could assert, what god? Is there proof that god created the universe, is there proof a god even exists. Without proof all you have is assertion.

There is no intellectual proof. There are people who believe. And there are people who seek on the spiritual path. But there is no scientific or logical proof.

 

[Sunstone]

I don't think so......
If there is natural morality then it's possible for mankind to be objectively moral........ but I doubt it.

I'll give one short maxim which I think can show that mankind has no objective morality. >>>>>>>

Power Corrupts!
And Absolute Power Corrupts, Absolutely!

Now..... where is the objective morality?

If I recall, according to Plato, people who do not behave morally are people who have forgotten what moral behavior is. In other words, objective morals exist, but sometimes we forget what they are.

But don't quote me on that: It's been 40 years since I read Plato.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

I often hear some statement along the lines of, "If a god does not exist, then there can be no objective morality".

As it happens, that sort of statement suffers greatly from the misfortune of being false.

It is possible, for example, that Platonic forms or ideals of morality exist even though no god exists.

Note: I am not attempting here to present an argument for the existence of an objective morality.

For sure that's true. More likely morals are an evolved characteristic. But in many cases I want to believe an objective right and wrong exist, even though there is little or no evidence to suggest that is the case.

 

[Sunstone]

The thing is: we process and interpret all of our sensory information, thoughts and feelings subjectively. If morality is objective, it would be something that could be sensed, just as we sense thoughts, visual info, etc. Animals and empathetic people can sense emotions that occur within other beings subjective minds. So, if morality is something that can be sensed, is it someting we sense within others and send back out, or is it something residing within the collective unconscious, or is it something within objective reality itself?

To me, you are presenting one of the few genuinely interesting arguments against the existence of an objective morality. Most people who chose to argue against the existence do so on the grounds that opinions of what is moral can vary widely from one person to the next.

But that is no more an interesting argument than it would be an interesting argument to suggest that 2 + 2 has no objective sum because there are numerous conflicting opinions among first grade arithmetic students as to what the sum is.

Your argument, on the other hand, if I understand it correctly, might be boiled down to: (1) If morality existed objectively, then it would be in some way empirical, (2) it cannot be sensed empirically, therefore it does not exist objectively.

To me, that's a vastly more interesting argument than the much more common argument -- and fallacious -- argument that morality cannot exist objectively because people have different opinions of what it is.