Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews

[1213]

I cover that issue in this thread.

Simple Reasons Why Jews Don't Believe in Jesus and Christianity
...

Thank you. I can’t comment that there, so I ask here, you claim: “The original group of Jewish Christians disappeared off the historical map within 2 generations of their start. After this point there was no group who can positively identified as the original group's descendents/family/or Jewish students.”

Please tell, how do you know that?

You also say: “Currently, there is no proven Christian/Messianic/Sacred Namer/Hebrew roots groups or individual who claim to be direct descendents of Jesus's original followers.”

Why should there be, what difference would it make?

And: “The vast majority of Christians worldwide do not know the Hebrew of the Tanakh, or Aramaic, or even Greek. Historically speaking only a certain minority Christian clergy were systamtically learning Hebrew and Greek, a lot fewer Aramaic.”

If there is something wrong in the English translations I think they should be corrected. I think it is sad, if it is not possible to read them in correct form in English.

It was made by non-Jewish Christian leaders.

What this means, from a Torath Mosheh perspective, is that whoever Paul was Jewish or not - he was not someone that Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews listen to.

I think that is interesting. I usually evaluate text on basis of what is said, not by who says it. Usually the content is more meaningful than who says it.

That offer is where we do a Zoom or a Skype where we take the Hebrew text w/o translation Jewish or Christian and we go through questionable verses starting at everything that proceeds it and everything that comes after it and see what the Hebrew text says.

In about 10 minutes you would see where we Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews are coming from. Would you be willing to do something like that?

Thank you for the offer, I don’t think it is necessary. I don't now have enough time to listen to those videos, but I would like to know, do you mean that those scriptures are not translated correctly in English?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

IF ORIGINAL OLD TESTAMENT TEXTS WERE NOT WRITTEN IN HEBREW, WHY THE INSISTENCE TO RELY ON A TRANSLATION IN HEBREW?

Easy.

There are several texts used in Torath Mosheh Jewish communities. The main one being what are called by all ancient Teimani, Mizrahi, Sephardi, and Ashkenazi Jewish communities as (ספרי תורה) and and personal copies were called (תגים) in the Mizrah. The Tajjim are not Old Testaments since there was no such thing as an Old Testament when they were first transcribed from the first 13 that were made by Mosheh ben-Amram.

They are not translations of any text but instead they are texts that were copied from older (ספרי תורה) in the possesion of (שבטים - שופטים - ונשאים) of Am Yisrael and because they were written on (גוויל) they can normally last several hundred years in the right conditions - just like the Dead Sea did.

The confirmation of this system came when Even Sapir made one of the first close contacts with Teimanim and compared the of the Teimani communities with what was in the possession of Mizrahi communities. In fact, as you know, the history is that the first Teimani Jewish communities were made up of two groups 1) soldiers of the Israeli army during the time of Shlomo HaMelekh who were sent the kingdom of Sheba and they never returned and settled in Southern Arabia and 2) a group of about 80 Jewish families who left Israel about 40 years before the destruction of the 1st Temple and settled in Europe. Information about this can be found in the books (אביר קשת - אמונות לחימה עברית) and also (סערת תימן).

Interestly enough the Samaritans have a seperate (ספרי תורה) system written where they also transcribe on (גוויל) in a type of (כתב עברי). Their text also provides the evidence for what is mentioned before, and they seperated themselves out more than 2,500 years ago - at least the first group of them did. The 2nd group was probably around 2,200 years ago.

Thus, the (ספרי תורה) and the (תגים) are not translations of any text. They are texts that were copied from older Tajjim and because they were written on (גוויל) they can normally last several hundred years in the right conditions.

So, what I am insisting is not that one pulls out what Christians call an Old Testament. I am insisting that IF, and that is IF, Christians want to try to convince Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews of something they must do so in Hebrew using what ever Hebrew text we Torath Mosheh/Orthodox Jews and they [Christians] consider valid. So, I hope that answers your question.

Can you explain why a translation made into Hebrew has advantage over a more ancient and more original translation made into greek.

Thanks in advance for any insight you can provide on this point.

Easy.

Because the Greek LXX that is used by Christians is the product of Christians and not Torath Mosheh Jews. How Christians often perceive Greek texts of any type of different than how Torath Mosheh Jews have. This is a historical reality. Further, even the NT authors knew that the Torath Mosheh Jews of their generation and prior had (ספרי קודש) that were derived from more ancient (מסורת) in Hebrew and this is one of the meanings they inserted into the NT when they claim that Jesus stated that the Perushim of that generation sat in the Seat of Mosheh and that the Jewish people of that generation should follow the Perushim and the Tzaduqim. Meaning it was widely know that that the Perushim of that generation were firmly planted in Torath Mosheh along with other Jewish communities that were outside of the land of Israel who had the same (מסורת).

Besides, if I remember correctly Billards guy agrees that the (מסורת) of (מעמד הר סיני) has been textually preserved in the Hebrew language among Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews. If he agrees with you then both you and he have proven the OP.

I hope that answers your question.

Also, for anyone who is confused about what I wrote above the following video may help.

 

[Harel13]

אביר קשת - אמונות לחימה עברית

Curious. Well, you have much more experience of the Temani community than I. You think Abir is legit (history-wise, I mean)?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Thank you. I can’t comment that there, so I ask here, you claim: “The original group of Jewish Christians disappeared off the historical map within 2 generations of their start. After this point there was no group who can positively identified as the original group's descendents/family/or Jewish students.”

Please tell, how do you know that?

It is pretty well accepted among Christian scholars that all of the men claimed to be Jesus's students were all martyred with the exception of MAYBE John who some say died of old age. I did a study of number of years where I went around asking Christian and non-Christian scholars what happened to the original Jewish Christians and everyone agreed they were off the historical map around 2 generations after they started. Also, the only information about one of the last groups the Ebionites comes from one the Church Fathers who considered them to be heretics because they kept Torah and only went by matthew and considered Paul to be a heretic. Yet, none of the writings of the Ebionites survived.

The last way to know is to look around and see if there are any Jews throughout the last 1,800 years who claim to be direct descendents of Jesus, his disciples, or even the students of his disciples. When this comes up the answer is the same - there are none.

You also say: “Currently, there is no proven Christian/Messianic/Sacred Namer/Hebrew roots groups or individual who claim to be direct descendents of Jesus's original followers.”

Why should there be, what difference would it make?

Because Hashem warned Torath Mosheh Jews, in the Torah, that those who don't keep the Torah correctly will disappear - it is one of the ways we know what is false doctrine. If you look at my video about Messianics I cover this issue. Also, in the link I provided earlier I addressed this in detail.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Curious. Well, you have much more experience of the Temani community than I. You think Abir is legit (history-wise, I mean)?

I know it is. I researched it for years before I trained in it. I also helped write edit and organize a book on it.

The important thing is that you have to get the correct information about it from the Abir web-site and not some of the articles written about it in English.

The below links from the Abir site may help.

https://www.abir.org.il/support

https://www.abir.org.il/history-modern

 

[Clear]

SINCE HEBREW WAS NOT THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE OF THE EARLIEST PROPHETS, WHY INSIST DATA MUST BE IN HEBREW?

Clear asked : “Since the earliest source texts for the old testament were not written in national hebrew, but instead were translated into Hebrew, I do not understand why you insist that individuals must give you data in Hebrew”
Ehave4ever : “They are not translations of any text but instead they are texts that were copied from older…” (post #122)

Of course they are translations.
They were translated from source text into National Hebrew and not in the original languages they were written in.
For example, we have no evidence that the languages Abraham and Moses and other Prophets spoke were hebrew.
While it may be tradition that Adam spoke Hebrew, this is mere tradition and there is no evidence for it.

My point is that, as these earliest documents such as the writings of Abraham became translated from one language to another language they did, finally make their way into a paleo-hebrew translation and then into a national Hebrew translation.

If Hebrew was not the original language of these texts, then why insist that you receive data in Hebrew?



BOTH THE SEPTUAGINT AND THE MASORETIC HAVE JEWISH ORIGINS

Clear Asked : “Can you explain why a translation made into Hebrew has advantage over a more ancient and more original translation made into Greek? Thanks in advance for any insight you can provide on this point. “
Ehave4ever replied : “Because the Greek LXX that is used by Christians is the product of Christians and not Torath Mosheh Jews.” (post #122)

Actually, the LXX is a Jewish translation created for Greek speaking Jews in approximately 300 b.c.

Both the Hebrew and the Greek are Jewish translations from another language.
My question was you insisted on receiving information in Hebrew, since it is not the original language?


Clear
ειφισεακω

 

[Ehav4Ever]

And: “The vast majority of Christians worldwide do not know the Hebrew of the Tanakh, or Aramaic, or even Greek. Historically speaking only a certain minority Christian clergy were systamtically learning Hebrew and Greek, a lot fewer Aramaic.”

If there is something wrong in the English translations I think they should be corrected. I think it is sad, if it is not possible to read them in correct form in English.

I think there are two ways to deal with something like bad translation and bad theology.

1. People should educate themselves on the langauge, history, and culture from original and valid sources.
2. Or they should seek out the those who had the langauge, history, and culture passed down them throughout the generations.

In this situation, this would mean that one would have to approach Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews.

I think that is interesting. I usually evaluate text on basis of what is said, not by who says it. Usually the content is more meaningful than who says it.

We Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews are required to evaluate the source/person behind the material before we evaulate the material. What is said can be completely off if the person writing it was off. For example, there is no need to waste time reading a book when you find out that Jim Jones, David Koresh, Osama bin-Laden, or Charles Manson were the authors.

Thank you for the offer, I don’t think it is necessary. I don't now have enough time to listen to those videos, but I would like to know, do you mean that those scriptures are not translated correctly in English?

There are situations where they are not translated correctly and there are situations where the Christian reader is pointed to a particular verse w/o being pointed to the context that comes before and after said verse.

See the comment made on this thread by ToGodorNottoGod. They researched what I was talking about and you see what they found out. Here is a link below on their findings.

Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Of course they are translations.
Greek are Jewish translations from another language.
My question was you insisted on receiving information in Hebrew, since it is not the original language?

If that is what you want to beleive that is fine. But do me a favor, can you translate the following for me and give me the specific "individual" histories of the two texts shown below?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Of course they are translations.
They were translated from source text into National Hebrew and not in the original languages they were written in.

Can you also translate the following and tell me the history behind the below text?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

SINCE HEBREW WAS NOT THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE OF THE EARLIEST PROPHETS, WHY INSIST DATA MUST BE IN HEBREW?

Easy. You and I don't share the same prophets. Your prophets spoke and wrote in what ever language you are saying yours spoke and wrote in and mine spoke and wrote in the language called (עברית) which is the (מסורת) of Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews.

Its like the old saying goes.

תורה צוה לנו משה מורשה קהלת יעקב​

 

[Ehav4Ever]

If Hebrew was not the original language of these texts, then why insist that you receive data in Hebrew?

Easy. Because at (מעמד בהר סיני) Hashem gave Am Yisrael/Torath Mosheh Jews the (נוסח) of the (ספר תורה) which was set at (עברית) per (הלכה למשה מסיני). Further, the (מסורת) we were given the following mitzvah warns what cultures/langauge/peoples to not accept things of a theological nature from. (See below)

Also, as you probably already know.

So, that is why. Besides, as I pointed out earlier it is clear that the early Church Fathers and their predecesors didn't want Torath Mosheh Jews of any era to read their texts. Win win situation for everybody.

 

[Clear]

REGARDING THE CLAIM THAT HEBREW WAS THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE

Hi @Ehav4Ever

Clear said : “…we have no evidence that the languages Abraham and Moses and other Prophets spoke were hebrew. While it may be tradition that Adam spoke Hebrew, this is mere tradition and there is no evidence for it…”
Ehav4ever said : “…do me a favor, can you translate the following for me and give me the specific "individual" histories of the two texts shown below?” (post #129)

Ehav4ever I might could work my way through the national hebrew texts (painfully).
As to the different language of your last cut and past which is not-national hebrew in the last example, I don't have the ability to work through. I have seen Israel find multiple "proto-hebrew" items which they then claim is "hebrew" but none of the scholars of hebrew were able to read the clear text and thus, sometimes, the tendency is to offer a proto-hebrew or a semitic family language as "hebrew". It is a bait and switch which is distasteful.

Can you explain why you think any of these cut and pastes are relevant to the claim that Adam or Abraham spoke Hebrew? If they are somehow relevant, and the data is worth it, I can work through them. If they are a deflection or irrelevant, it is a waste of time.

Unless your cut and pastes are evidence that Adam or Abraham or Moses spoke Hebrew, they are irrelevant to support the claim that National Hebrew was the original language of the original texts that ultimately became the Old Testament texts.

I've never seen any objective evidence that Adam spoke Hebrew or that UR, where Abraham was from, spoke and wrote in national Hebrew.





Clear asked : “SINCE HEBREW WAS NOT THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE OF THE EARLIEST PROPHETS, WHY INSIST DATA MUST BE IN HEBREW?”
Ehav4ever replied : “Easy. You and I don't share the same prophets.” (post #130)

Moses, Abraham, Isaiah, Daniel, and others are some of my prophets.
Why don’t you think Moses, Abraham, Isaiah and Daniel were prophets?


Ehav4ever replied : “Your prophets spoke and wrote in what ever language you are saying yours spoke and wrote in and mine spoke and wrote in the language called (עברית) which is the (מסורת) of Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews.

I cannot tell you what language Moses, Abraham, Isaiah spoke in, although, as we approach nearer to the time when national Hebrew was created, my prophets from the Old Testament were more likely to speak and write in a form of Hebrew.

Do you have any data at all to prove that Abraham spoke national Hebrew?

Clear
ειφυδρακω

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Ehav4ever Unless your cut and pastes are evidence that Adam or Abraham or Moses spoke Hebrew, they are irrelevant to support the claim that National Hebrew was the original language of the original texts that ultimately became the Old Testament texts.
I've never seen any objective evidence that Adam spoke Hebrew or that UR, where Abraham was from, spoke and wrote in national Hebrew.

How do your cut and pastes demonstrate Adam or Abraham or Moses spoke national Hebrew?

So, in other words we both agree that you can't read what I posted and you don't know where the texts came from, or even what they are. On the other hand, I don't read Greek, I should not learn it, and I should leave the Koine Greek to the professionals. Further, if you posted a Christian produced LXX in front of me I would have to admit I have no clue what how to read it because I don't know Greek.

Got it. See I told you we weren't talking about the same thing at all and you have proven the OP. I.e. that Jews and Christians have different standards and you even say we different texts that don't align. (National Hebrew - ha ha ha and חחחחחחח!)

Now to your underlying point. If I understand you correctly -

1. Christians should ignore/reject Torath Mosheh Jewish and Orthodox Jewish texts, language, concepts, and culture and Christians should only accept Christian texts, language, and culture because according to your outlook we Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews got it all wrong and we don't have a clue.
2. Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews should ignore/reject/avoid Christian texts because it is the right thing for Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews to do as Hashem commanded.

Since Christians don't need to become Torath Mosheh Jews/Orthodox Jews and since Torath Mosheh Jews/Orthodox Jews must not become Christians, per (הלכה למשה מסיני), I think I agree with your underlying point about this huge divide between us. See we agree on the underlying principles of the OP. RF peace has been achieved now let's get that ticker tape parade going.

 

[Clear]

REGARDING WHETHER HEBREW IS THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE OF THE WORLD AND ITS SACRED TEXT

Ehav4ever said : “See I told you we weren't talking about the same thing at all and you have proven the OP. I.e. that Jews and Christians have different standards and you even say we different texts that don't align.

Your conclusion is irrational and non-sensical. I did NOT say we use different texts and your strange conclusion has nothing to do with your claim that Hebrew is the original language.




REGARDING WHETHER HEBREW IS THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE OF THE WORLD AND ITS SACRED TEXT
Ehav4ever said : “Now to your underlying point. If I understand you correctly -

1. Christians should ignore/reject Torath Mosheh Jewish and Orthodox Jewish texts, language, concepts, and culture and Christians should only accept Christian texts, language, and culture because according to your outlook we Torath Mosheh and Orthodox got it all wrong and we dont' have a clue.

2. Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews should ignore/reject/avoid Christian texts because it is the right thing for Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews to do as Hashem commanded.


This is an entirely bizarre set of conclusions and has nothing to do with your claim that Hebrew is the original language.





REGARDING WHETHER HEBREW IS THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE OF THE WORLD AND ITS SACRED TEXT
Ehav4ever said : “Since Christians don't need to become Torath Mosheh Jews/Orthodox Jews and since Torath Mosheh Jews/Orthodox Jews must not become Christians, per (הלכה למשה מסיני), I think I agree with your underlying point about this huge divide between us. See we agree on the underlying principles of the OP. RF peace has been achieved now let's get that ticker tape parade going.”


Again, this is an entirely bizarre set of irrelevant statements that have nothing to do with your claim that Hebrew was the original language.



Ehav4ever, Please, If you do not have any data that can demonstrate your claim that Hebrew is the original language spoken by Abraham or Moses or Adam, etc, this is the time to tell us rather than to waste readers time or to deflect with introduction of other, irrelevant issues or to simply mischaracterize my statements.


Clear
ειφυφισεω

 

[ToGodorNottoGod]

@Ehav4Ever

OK, I am really enjoying this Rabbi Tovia Singer.......have never even seen him before or heard of him, but I am really enjoying the videos. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Your conclusion is irrational and non-sensical. I did NOT say we use different texts and your strange conclusion has nothing to do with your claim that Hebrew is the original language.

That is interesting that you feel that way. The Church Fathers also thought that Torath Mosheh Jews were irrational and non-sensical for not signing up on the NT train. It is a good thing though that the Torath Mosheh Jews in that time didn't join them and that Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews don't join up now. You know our stiff necks just won't let us look right or left on matters like this - those kind hearted Church Fathers would have gotten tired of really quickly and would have put us on their list of heretics.

I can accept that you don't understand what I am getting at. It is a Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jewish thing - you wouldn't understand.

I did NOT say we use different texts and your strange conclusion has nothing to do with your claim that Hebrew is the original language.

That is what I am getting out every one of your comments. It must be all the capital, bold, underlined, colored blue and red comments that are literally making it impossible for me to take what you are writing seriously. Besides, based on your statement "your claim that Hebrew is the original language" I can tell you didn't read anything I posted and you are just looking to argue for the sake of arguement - you may want to re-read the OP.

Yet, this is actually a good reason that Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews should stay on the path we are on, hold by the (מסורת) we received at (מעמד הר סיני), and away from the path you propose.

Just think of it. If all of us were to capital, bold, underline, color blue and red parts of our comments we would all go color blind within a week.

 

[Clear]

Ehav4ever

REGARDING THE ERRONEOUS CLAIM THAT HEBREW IS THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE OF THE OLD TESTAMENT TEXTS
Ehav4ever said : "Thus, the (ספרי תורה) and the (תגים) are not translations of any text."

Your claim that the books of the Torah in hebrew "are not translations of any text" is incorrect.
Of course the Jewish records were translations from text created in an earlier language.
There is no evidence that National Hebrew existed in the time of Adam or Abraham.
Thus, the version of the Old Testament in hebrew is not the original text, but a translation into Hebrew.
This is the reason for my initial question as to why your texts must be in Hebrew.
It seems very inefficient for the world to learn Hebrew if there is not some great advantage.


REGARDING THE INCORRECT ASSUMPTION THAT THE JEWISH LXX WAS A "CHRISTIAN PRODUCTION"
Ehav4ever said : "if you posted a Christian produced LXX in front of me I would have to admit I have no clue what how to read it because I don't know Greek."

This is, also incorrect.
The LXX (produced in 300 b.c.) was not a Christian production, but a JEWISH production, created by Jews, for Jews.
It was used by the early Jewish Christians because the Messianic Judaism known as Christianity became popular among greek speakers and greek readers.


REGARDING THE ASSUMPTION THAT THE JEWISH TEXTS WERE NOT EDITED AND CULLED
Ehav4ever said : "Given that the various church councils were the ones who decided what material went into the New Testament and what information did not go into it...."

The problem with such Characterization is that the Jewish records necessarily underwent similar editing as the early Jewish traditions became written texts and then those written texts underwent inclusion and culling and editing and translation and changes to the UR texts.

For example, the Jewish Masoretes tell us they made changes to the source texts they used to create the Masoretic bible.

Also, the Talmud tells us that Rabbinic Judaism forbade any inquiries into what went on before the creation of the world while much of the early literature describes this time period. This sort of forbidding information and deciding which texts could and could not be read is tantamount to a similar limiting and culling of what information can and what cannot be studied by Rabbinic leadership.

The O.P. just seems so hypocritical in trying to claim textual superiority over the Judeo-Christian texts.

One problem I find with the O.P. is that parts of the O.P. that feel like they are simply claims made in an attempt to claim textual superiority, but avoiding applying the same criticisms to the Jewish production of texts.




Clear
ειφυακνεω

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Concerning the Greek langauge and its history vs. Torath Mosheh see the below. Also addressed is the LXX claim.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Here are some Christian scholars who deal with the "murky" history of the LXX. The video is called "Why I Don't Believe In The Septuagint - Dr. Peter Williams, PhD"

 

[rosends]

@Clear
You wrote, "Of course the Jewish records were translations from text created in an earlier language.
There is no evidence that National Hebrew existed in the time of Adam or Abraham.
Thus, the version of the Old Testament in hebrew is not the original text, but a translation into Hebrew.
This is the reason for my initial question as to why your texts must be in Hebrew.
It seems very inefficient for the world to learn Hebrew if there is not some great advantage."

Why "of course"?
And what is "national Hebrew" as opposed to proto-Hebraic, or Assyrian?
You are stating as a premise that the text is a translation into Hebrew. Do you have evidence of a prior version in another language? If not, what evidence do you have that it wasn't in Hebrew (or an Assyrian, or other base semitic language's letters)?