What mitzvot do you keep?
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Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews
- Thread starter Ehav4Ever
- Start date
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Isaiah does not describe a "light burden".
Regarding: "Salvation by Trust", if you want to be convincing, please provide some verses from Tanach. So far, I haven't found anything which supports this idea.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Then why are you in this forum?
1) THE MAIN SINS FOR WHICH JEWS WERE PUNISHED WITH REMOVAL OF PROPHETIC GIFTS, REVELATION, ABILITY TO PRODUCE SCRIPTURE AND EXILE
1) The Jews were guilty of rape of women and other sexual immorality;
2) The Jews were guilty of murder, and
3) The Jews created a different religion and did not worship God in truth.
4) The Jews were guilty of “a baseless hatred” towards others.
And all these as reasons for their punishments by exile and the loss of prophetic gifts, loss of templet, etc. in their religion.
2) THE CLAIM THAT A RELIGION THAT DOES NOT HAVE PROPHETIC GIFTS, DOES NOT HAVE REVELATION, DOES NOT PRODUCE SCRIPTURE, AND DOES NOT HAVE TEMPLE WORSHIP
IS THE SAME RELIGION AS
A RELIGION THAT DOES HAVE PROPHETIC GIFTS, DOES HAVE REVELATION FROM GOD, DOES PRODUCE SCRIPTURE, AND DOES HAVE ACTIVE TEMPLE WORSHIP
Rosends said : “I don't put the kind of stock that you do into the existence of some transcendent and correct "history." History is a shifting set of understandings driven by agenda and limited by the available data, and the selection from among that data” (post #230)
Clear said : “The modern Jewish religion, is to a certain extent, a religion that, historically wise, was created, by a “shifting set of understandings driven by agenda and limited by the available data, and the selection from among that data.”
Rosends said : “But it is based on the chain of transmission of practices and understandings as understood through a particular and consistent lens making the Judaism of today simply a continuation of (and not distinct from) any earlier form of Judaism.
I think your claim regarding history as a “shifting set of of understandings driven by agenda and limited by the available data, and the selection from among that data” applies to the creation of Jewish history and the creation of modern Judaism as well.
The agenda-driven history of the modern version of rabbinic Judaism applies to the modern Jews who DO NOT have no prophetic gifts and DO NOT have revelation, and DO NOT produce scripture, and DO NOT have temple worship, etc.
They seem to want desperately to view themselves and their modern religion as having the same characteristics as ancient jews who DID have prophetic gifts, and who DID have revelation and who DID produce scripture and who DID have temple worship, etc.
The modern jews seem to want desperately to view themselves as the same religion as the ancient religion called by the name Judaism.
These are two different religions with different characteristics regardless of a personal agenda to claim they are the same.
3) IF HISTORY IS SOMEWHAT ARBITRARY, AND DRIVEN BY AGENDA AND LIMITED DATA, THEN THE TEXTS THAT DESCRIBE THAT HISTORY ARE ALSO ARBITRARY AND SUBJECT TO AGENDA AND LIMITED DATA.
I agree with you that written history is "a shifting set of understandings driven by agenda and limited by the available data, and the selection from among that data" (rosends, post #230)
If we apply these agreed upon principles to the Jewish Masoretic text, we end up admitting that it is also an arbitrary “standard” text "driven by agenda and limited by available data and it represents a selection among that data". Thus, one cannot tell if conflicting texts are more correct or it is more correct or multiple versions are wrong. "Standard" text is a somewhat arbitary claim.
Rosends said : “Well, Judaism would not say it is arbitrary.
Of course the Jews would say that. The Jews are, as you said “driven by agenda” to confirm their beliefs.
For example, when we talk about changes the Masoretes made to the Masoretic text, you describe it as “reconciling variant texts” which reconciliation is, of course, “driven by agenda”.
What is the Jewish agenda?
You described this agenda and process of changing text as “The process was not about honoring anyone or thing, but about maintaining a tradition and keeping within it.”
In the model, where “maintaining a tradition and keeping within it” takes precedence over a correct text, the “position of authority” of that text is based on maintaining a tradition rather than making producing a correct text, then the “position of authority” is artificial when compared to other texts were produced with the goal of producing a correct text.
Having that agenda as a goal in the production of the Masoretic you say “Therefore, as the process is true to a tradition, the end result is not suspect.”
This does not mean the Masoretic is correct, but instead, it maintains the text supports your traditions.
This is arbitrary and capricious to create a text and a history that is “driven by agenda” (As you describe it).
4) REGARDING THE AGENDA TO SUPPORT TRADITION VS THE AGENDA TO HAVE A CORRECT TEXT
Clear said : I think the committees looked at the Scrolls and thought the Dead Sea Scroll version was more correct for reasons more logical and a more rational more coherent reasons.
rosends replied : "But knowing that similar committees within the realm of Jewish historical scholars (with the bona fides to prove it) have come up with a different conclusion calls into question the supremacy of the other committees. Each uses a rationale of its own. Opting for one over another must be informed by some other agenda. I know mine.
Ok, you claim to know "similar committees" of Jewish historical scholars" have come to a different conclusion.
WHICH committees?, WHICH Scholars?, What "bona fides"? describe their discussion to us.
I disagree with the Jewish agenda where the text is “about maintaining a tradition and keeping within it” rather than simply having a correct text.
In fact, I think that the fact that the Jews created their own traditions which involved incorrect worship of the wrong things (idolotry) for which they were punished by God should be a lesson that tradition alone, without care for truth and correctness is not what God wants.
Clear
φιφυακτζω
1) The Jews were guilty of rape of women and other sexual immorality;
2) The Jews were guilty of murder, and
3) The Jews created a different religion and did not worship God in truth.
4) The Jews were guilty of “a baseless hatred” towards others.
And all these as reasons for their punishments by exile and the loss of prophetic gifts, loss of templet, etc. in their religion.
2) THE CLAIM THAT A RELIGION THAT DOES NOT HAVE PROPHETIC GIFTS, DOES NOT HAVE REVELATION, DOES NOT PRODUCE SCRIPTURE, AND DOES NOT HAVE TEMPLE WORSHIP
IS THE SAME RELIGION AS
A RELIGION THAT DOES HAVE PROPHETIC GIFTS, DOES HAVE REVELATION FROM GOD, DOES PRODUCE SCRIPTURE, AND DOES HAVE ACTIVE TEMPLE WORSHIP
Rosends said : “I don't put the kind of stock that you do into the existence of some transcendent and correct "history." History is a shifting set of understandings driven by agenda and limited by the available data, and the selection from among that data” (post #230)
Clear said : “The modern Jewish religion, is to a certain extent, a religion that, historically wise, was created, by a “shifting set of understandings driven by agenda and limited by the available data, and the selection from among that data.”
Rosends said : “But it is based on the chain of transmission of practices and understandings as understood through a particular and consistent lens making the Judaism of today simply a continuation of (and not distinct from) any earlier form of Judaism.
I think your claim regarding history as a “shifting set of of understandings driven by agenda and limited by the available data, and the selection from among that data” applies to the creation of Jewish history and the creation of modern Judaism as well.
The agenda-driven history of the modern version of rabbinic Judaism applies to the modern Jews who DO NOT have no prophetic gifts and DO NOT have revelation, and DO NOT produce scripture, and DO NOT have temple worship, etc.
They seem to want desperately to view themselves and their modern religion as having the same characteristics as ancient jews who DID have prophetic gifts, and who DID have revelation and who DID produce scripture and who DID have temple worship, etc.
The modern jews seem to want desperately to view themselves as the same religion as the ancient religion called by the name Judaism.
These are two different religions with different characteristics regardless of a personal agenda to claim they are the same.
3) IF HISTORY IS SOMEWHAT ARBITRARY, AND DRIVEN BY AGENDA AND LIMITED DATA, THEN THE TEXTS THAT DESCRIBE THAT HISTORY ARE ALSO ARBITRARY AND SUBJECT TO AGENDA AND LIMITED DATA.
I agree with you that written history is "a shifting set of understandings driven by agenda and limited by the available data, and the selection from among that data" (rosends, post #230)
If we apply these agreed upon principles to the Jewish Masoretic text, we end up admitting that it is also an arbitrary “standard” text "driven by agenda and limited by available data and it represents a selection among that data". Thus, one cannot tell if conflicting texts are more correct or it is more correct or multiple versions are wrong. "Standard" text is a somewhat arbitary claim.
Rosends said : “Well, Judaism would not say it is arbitrary.
Of course the Jews would say that. The Jews are, as you said “driven by agenda” to confirm their beliefs.
For example, when we talk about changes the Masoretes made to the Masoretic text, you describe it as “reconciling variant texts” which reconciliation is, of course, “driven by agenda”.
What is the Jewish agenda?
You described this agenda and process of changing text as “The process was not about honoring anyone or thing, but about maintaining a tradition and keeping within it.”
In the model, where “maintaining a tradition and keeping within it” takes precedence over a correct text, the “position of authority” of that text is based on maintaining a tradition rather than making producing a correct text, then the “position of authority” is artificial when compared to other texts were produced with the goal of producing a correct text.
Having that agenda as a goal in the production of the Masoretic you say “Therefore, as the process is true to a tradition, the end result is not suspect.”
This does not mean the Masoretic is correct, but instead, it maintains the text supports your traditions.
This is arbitrary and capricious to create a text and a history that is “driven by agenda” (As you describe it).
4) REGARDING THE AGENDA TO SUPPORT TRADITION VS THE AGENDA TO HAVE A CORRECT TEXT
Clear said : I think the committees looked at the Scrolls and thought the Dead Sea Scroll version was more correct for reasons more logical and a more rational more coherent reasons.
rosends replied : "But knowing that similar committees within the realm of Jewish historical scholars (with the bona fides to prove it) have come up with a different conclusion calls into question the supremacy of the other committees. Each uses a rationale of its own. Opting for one over another must be informed by some other agenda. I know mine.
Ok, you claim to know "similar committees" of Jewish historical scholars" have come to a different conclusion.
WHICH committees?, WHICH Scholars?, What "bona fides"? describe their discussion to us.
I disagree with the Jewish agenda where the text is “about maintaining a tradition and keeping within it” rather than simply having a correct text.
In fact, I think that the fact that the Jews created their own traditions which involved incorrect worship of the wrong things (idolotry) for which they were punished by God should be a lesson that tradition alone, without care for truth and correctness is not what God wants.
Clear
φιφυακτζω
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rosends
Well-Known Member
Yes, you have claimed this already. This is your belief. It is inconsistent with an understanding of Judaism as a whole and I have shown that by pointing out that the elements in the modern practice were established as part of the ancient religion, anticipating the current situation. You seem intent on separating the religion but that's reflecting of your agenda, not of the nature of Judaism.
No, "we" don't because the Masoretic system was not arbitrary. It might be agenda driven, but it was also governed by rules and a systematic approach. Calling it arbitrary ignores all of that. I don't know why you wish to ignore this, and label the reconciliation of variants as arbitrary instead of reviewing the material which @Harel13 presented (and look at the text of the book you cited to substantiate your claim), but that's your choice.
Driven by the agenda of conforming to the ancient set of rules about reconciliation of text.
Ah, see there you go again presupposing that something else is the default "correct" and therefore the Masoretic text MUST be wrong. That bias taints your argument.
And this reflects a belief that anyone else's agenda must be towards "correctness" which is unsupportable.
And since you concede that all history is subject to that same concern, you cannot hitch your horse to any particular reading as "correct" and yet you do.
I actually presented supporting information including names of scholars involved. I was hoping that you, in pursuit of knowledge, would review what I presented and investigate. If that is not your preferred approach then I am now forewarned. You referenced a text like the Ma'aseh Ephod so I went back to the primary document, respecting your citation.
It is nice that you think that and that you want to learn a lesson, but your particular opinion about Judaism is not one crafted from a position of knowledge about Judaism, as you have admitted.
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rosends
Well-Known Member
Huh? Who was talking about Jesus and Paul? You made a critique about rabbis and I simply stated that this same claim would therefore also apply to Jesus.
And there was no question about going to heaven. You made a claim about never having met a rabbi who does something and I stated that I do that thing so you can no longer make that claim.
Your remarks seem to ignore what is actually being discussed. I'm not sure why you would focus on one small set of sacrifices and ignore all the:
1. sacrifices that have nothing to do with blood
2. rituals in the temple that have nothing to do with sacrifices
3. rituals outside the temple and temple times
Maybe it is because that isn't the topic that was being spoken about.
Hi @rosends
Rosends said : “History is a shifting set of understandings driven by agenda and limited by the available data, and the selection from among that data” (post #230)
Clear said : “The history of the modern version of rabbinic Judaism includes the modern Jews who DO NOT have prophetic gifts and DO NOT have revelation, and DO NOT produce scripture, and DO NOT have temple worship, etc. Is agenda driven in that they want desperately to be seen as and to view themselves as having the same religion and religious characteristics as ancient jews who DID have prophetic gifts, and who DID have revelation and who DID produce scripture and who DID have temple worship, etc.
These are two different religions with different characteristics regardless of a personal agenda to claim they are the same.
Rosends said : “It is inconsistent with an understanding of Judaism as a whole and I have shown that by pointing out that the elements in the modern practice were established as part of the ancient religion, anticipating the current situation”
I agree that SOME “ELEMENTS” in the modern version of Judaism may be the same as the ancient Jewish religion just as SOME ELEMENTS of christianity are present in Judaism. Still, they are different religions.
However, we are not talking about a few “elements” that are similar.
We are speaking of profound foundational principles by which religion was established,and maintained and matured over thousands of years such as revelation and prophets and scripture and temple worship which are very different than creating traditions of men and passing those traditions off as authentic revealed religion from God.
This idea of creating doctrines and traditions by rabbis and others and trying to maintain those man-made traditions at all costs is a different religion that having prophets declare doctrines and provided on-going guidance from God over time.
For example, ancient process in production of scriptures where prophetic announcements were written down and scripture created inside the ongoing process of honoring God and keeping his commandments is different than the process you describe where the process became “...about maintaining a tradition and keeping within it.”
This was part of the Messiahs point when he said of the Jews that “…in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men… Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. Mark 7:7-9.
Maintaining traditions of rabbis does not seem to be the proper process in religion where one central principle seems to be maintaining a relationship with God.
The results of such a process is to LOSE this relationship as the Jews tell us.
The Jewish site Chabad.org says regarding the exile [Galut] that “On a deeper level, the tragedy of galut isn't limited to physical displacement, and is not necessarily defined by persecution and suffering. Galut is a time when G‑d's presence is concealed, when nearly all perceptible traces of the relationship we share with Him have vanished. We don't feel or see G‑d's love for us, and we don't really feel like His children. We may study His Torah and follow His commandments – and we are told that by doing so we connect with Him – but we don't feel it.
Which is why even a Jew who lives in Jerusalem today says in his prayers, "Because of our sins we were exiled from our Land." For even one who is physically in the Land of Israel, is still in galut.”
This Jewish teaching that the inability for Jews to feel Gods love and to have a relationship with him is disastrous.
It creates a religion where individuals simply live according to written tradition of rabbis rather than living inside a living, thriving, ongoing revelatory and personal experience with God as was given to the Christians.
This sort of religion WAS the type of religion the Jews once had according to the Jewish teaching from Jewish Chabad.org regarding ancient religion and how that religion was different than the modern Judaism. These Jews teach “In the early years of our nationhood, G‑d's presence was felt. He frequently and very openly interfered in the happenings of this world, and specifically on behalf of His chosen nation. This motivated us to want to connect to Him; the love we were shown elicited a reciprocal feeling on our part; it was G‑d who fueled the relationship.”
This is a different religion than modern Judaism these Jews describe as a religion : “when nearly all perceptible traces of the relationship we share with Him have vanished. We don't feel or see G‑d's love for us, and we don't really feel like His children.”.
REGARDING THE CLAIM THAT KNOWING LOSS OF CHARACTERISTICS STILL MEANS THE CHARACTERISTICS OF THE TWO RELIGIONS ARE THE SAME
When you claim that the two religions are the same simply because the Jews knew they were going to lose important characteristics of their original religion, doesn’t mean the two religions are the same.
God can give authentic religion to a people and he can take it away :
“Hear these words, O Israel. At first our fathers dwelt as aliens in Egypt and they were delivered from there, and received the Law of life, which they did not keep, which you also have transgressed after them. then land was given to you for a possession in the land of Zion; but you and your fathers committed iniquity and did not keep the ways which the Most High commanded you. And because he is a righteous judge, in due time he took from you what he had given. “ Fourth Book of Ezra 14:28-32
Such principles indicate It is not just land which God can take from Israel, but he can remove the Gifts he bestows that make religion alive and authentic and the principles of religion that create the relationship between God and mankind.
“24 What shall I do to you, O Jacob? You would not obey me, O Judah. I will turn to other nations and will give them my name, that they may keep my statutes. Because you have forsaken me, I also will forsake you. 25 When you beg mercy of me, I will show you no mercy. 26 When you call upon me, I will not listen to you; for you have defiled your hands with blood, and your feet are swift to commit murder….I sent to you my servants the prophets, but you have taken and slain them and torn their bodies in pieces; their blood I will require of you, says the Lord…. I will give your houses to a people that will come, who without having heard me will believe… The Fourth Book of Ezra 1:24-37;
And what he bestowed on Israel but then took because the Jews did evil and created for themselves religion that God did not give them and other evils, he can bestow other nations. For example, the Prophet Ezra says : “24 What shall I do to you, O Jacob? You would not obey me, O Judah. I will turn to other nations and will give them my name, that they may keep my statutes. Because you have forsaken me, I also will forsake you. 25 When you beg mercy of me, I will show you no mercy. 26 When you call upon me, I will not listen to you; for you have defiled your hands with blood, and your feet are swift to commit murder….I sent to you my servants the prophets, but you have taken and slain them and torn their bodies in pieces; their blood I will require of you, says the Lord…. I will give your houses to a people that will come, who without having heard me will believe… The Fourth Book of Ezra 1:24-37;
Knowing that these things were going to happen to Israel as they had been warned of does not mean that the modern religion the Jews have created without prophets, without revelation, without ability to produce scripture, without temple worship, without, (as the Jews say) “nearly all perceptible traces of the relationship” we share with God, without a feeling or ability to see Gods love and without the feeling that they are like his children is the same as a religion that has all of these characteristics the modern Jewish religion lacks.
Clear
φισεσιτωω
Rosends said : “History is a shifting set of understandings driven by agenda and limited by the available data, and the selection from among that data” (post #230)
Clear said : “The history of the modern version of rabbinic Judaism includes the modern Jews who DO NOT have prophetic gifts and DO NOT have revelation, and DO NOT produce scripture, and DO NOT have temple worship, etc. Is agenda driven in that they want desperately to be seen as and to view themselves as having the same religion and religious characteristics as ancient jews who DID have prophetic gifts, and who DID have revelation and who DID produce scripture and who DID have temple worship, etc.
These are two different religions with different characteristics regardless of a personal agenda to claim they are the same.
Rosends said : “It is inconsistent with an understanding of Judaism as a whole and I have shown that by pointing out that the elements in the modern practice were established as part of the ancient religion, anticipating the current situation”
I agree that SOME “ELEMENTS” in the modern version of Judaism may be the same as the ancient Jewish religion just as SOME ELEMENTS of christianity are present in Judaism. Still, they are different religions.
However, we are not talking about a few “elements” that are similar.
We are speaking of profound foundational principles by which religion was established,and maintained and matured over thousands of years such as revelation and prophets and scripture and temple worship which are very different than creating traditions of men and passing those traditions off as authentic revealed religion from God.
This idea of creating doctrines and traditions by rabbis and others and trying to maintain those man-made traditions at all costs is a different religion that having prophets declare doctrines and provided on-going guidance from God over time.
For example, ancient process in production of scriptures where prophetic announcements were written down and scripture created inside the ongoing process of honoring God and keeping his commandments is different than the process you describe where the process became “...about maintaining a tradition and keeping within it.”
This was part of the Messiahs point when he said of the Jews that “…in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men… Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. Mark 7:7-9.
Maintaining traditions of rabbis does not seem to be the proper process in religion where one central principle seems to be maintaining a relationship with God.
The results of such a process is to LOSE this relationship as the Jews tell us.
The Jewish site Chabad.org says regarding the exile [Galut] that “On a deeper level, the tragedy of galut isn't limited to physical displacement, and is not necessarily defined by persecution and suffering. Galut is a time when G‑d's presence is concealed, when nearly all perceptible traces of the relationship we share with Him have vanished. We don't feel or see G‑d's love for us, and we don't really feel like His children. We may study His Torah and follow His commandments – and we are told that by doing so we connect with Him – but we don't feel it.
Which is why even a Jew who lives in Jerusalem today says in his prayers, "Because of our sins we were exiled from our Land." For even one who is physically in the Land of Israel, is still in galut.”
This Jewish teaching that the inability for Jews to feel Gods love and to have a relationship with him is disastrous.
It creates a religion where individuals simply live according to written tradition of rabbis rather than living inside a living, thriving, ongoing revelatory and personal experience with God as was given to the Christians.
This sort of religion WAS the type of religion the Jews once had according to the Jewish teaching from Jewish Chabad.org regarding ancient religion and how that religion was different than the modern Judaism. These Jews teach “In the early years of our nationhood, G‑d's presence was felt. He frequently and very openly interfered in the happenings of this world, and specifically on behalf of His chosen nation. This motivated us to want to connect to Him; the love we were shown elicited a reciprocal feeling on our part; it was G‑d who fueled the relationship.”
This is a different religion than modern Judaism these Jews describe as a religion : “when nearly all perceptible traces of the relationship we share with Him have vanished. We don't feel or see G‑d's love for us, and we don't really feel like His children.”.
REGARDING THE CLAIM THAT KNOWING LOSS OF CHARACTERISTICS STILL MEANS THE CHARACTERISTICS OF THE TWO RELIGIONS ARE THE SAME
When you claim that the two religions are the same simply because the Jews knew they were going to lose important characteristics of their original religion, doesn’t mean the two religions are the same.
God can give authentic religion to a people and he can take it away :
“Hear these words, O Israel. At first our fathers dwelt as aliens in Egypt and they were delivered from there, and received the Law of life, which they did not keep, which you also have transgressed after them. then land was given to you for a possession in the land of Zion; but you and your fathers committed iniquity and did not keep the ways which the Most High commanded you. And because he is a righteous judge, in due time he took from you what he had given. “ Fourth Book of Ezra 14:28-32
Such principles indicate It is not just land which God can take from Israel, but he can remove the Gifts he bestows that make religion alive and authentic and the principles of religion that create the relationship between God and mankind.
“24 What shall I do to you, O Jacob? You would not obey me, O Judah. I will turn to other nations and will give them my name, that they may keep my statutes. Because you have forsaken me, I also will forsake you. 25 When you beg mercy of me, I will show you no mercy. 26 When you call upon me, I will not listen to you; for you have defiled your hands with blood, and your feet are swift to commit murder….I sent to you my servants the prophets, but you have taken and slain them and torn their bodies in pieces; their blood I will require of you, says the Lord…. I will give your houses to a people that will come, who without having heard me will believe… The Fourth Book of Ezra 1:24-37;
And what he bestowed on Israel but then took because the Jews did evil and created for themselves religion that God did not give them and other evils, he can bestow other nations. For example, the Prophet Ezra says : “24 What shall I do to you, O Jacob? You would not obey me, O Judah. I will turn to other nations and will give them my name, that they may keep my statutes. Because you have forsaken me, I also will forsake you. 25 When you beg mercy of me, I will show you no mercy. 26 When you call upon me, I will not listen to you; for you have defiled your hands with blood, and your feet are swift to commit murder….I sent to you my servants the prophets, but you have taken and slain them and torn their bodies in pieces; their blood I will require of you, says the Lord…. I will give your houses to a people that will come, who without having heard me will believe… The Fourth Book of Ezra 1:24-37;
Knowing that these things were going to happen to Israel as they had been warned of does not mean that the modern religion the Jews have created without prophets, without revelation, without ability to produce scripture, without temple worship, without, (as the Jews say) “nearly all perceptible traces of the relationship” we share with God, without a feeling or ability to see Gods love and without the feeling that they are like his children is the same as a religion that has all of these characteristics the modern Jewish religion lacks.
Clear
φισεσιτωω
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Yahcubs777
Active Member
To see if there are any children of the kingdom here; more specifically, children of life. To share the height of Revelations that are raining in the earth today, and for a witness. For its not about believing; the message is genetic. That is why the Gospel of the kingdom is only for the children of the kingdom.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
But you are defining the Children of the Kingdom by the teachings of your church, and I assure you that you will only find such individuals in your church.
Yahcubs777
Active Member
No i am not. The children of the kingdom are global because GOD at a time started sending them to all countries not just Israel as they were strategically placed for the transmission of this message; the Gospel of the kingdom. The Kingdom in question is the kingdom of the New Salem, which is the Land Moses, the Great Moses was supposed to lead the people to. The New Salem is also the land that Abraham was supposed to inherit. But finding that Land requires that the earth be transfigured, and the people also be transfigured. Thus, there are the children of the kingdom.
Since you are not personally sure what we Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews are in line with we Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews will stick with Hashem and the (מסורת) we received from Mosheh ben-Amram at (מעמד הר סיני). We wouldn't want to stand in your way so - you be happy in your path and we wil take care of this side of things.
You be sure to do that. For according to Ez 34, the shepherds who do not feed or heal the sheep, and eat the fat of the sheep, will be in for hard times. Those who eat the fat of the sheep, and become "fat shepherds", will face judgment and destruction (Ez 34:16). They will be replaced by "one shepherd" (Ez 34:23). As for the not so fat shepherds, "I will judge" ... "between the rams and the goats". We are now at the "end of the age", and the "wicked" will not understand, but judgment is coming (Daniel 12 & Jer 30:11), and "Jacob" will not escape unscathed. But go on in your own understanding, and find out quickly what is coming.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
Whatever your definition of elitist is you would not want us so called "elitist" involved in your religion. We would take everything in your religion so far outside of the Christian norm and to such a level that you wouldn't even recognize your religion by the time we were done with it - i.e. I would feel obliged to redact whole swaths of it based on the OP I mentioned earlier and I don't think you want that would you?
Besides, if you read my earlier posts and other threads I made it clear that....drum roll.....Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews don't use translations (even ones made by non-Christian Jews) as standards for making decisions on Torah and Halakha. We use only the Hebrew text for that. Even the Aramaic Targum is not on the level of the Hebrew text.
The non-Christian Jews who use Soncino Press English translations or other translations themselves recognize that the Hebrew text is the standard and not a Soncino translation. Further, if a non-Christian Jew tried to prove something to me by way of an English translation I would tell him the same thing I am telling you......"Bring the Hebrew text and only the Hebrew text and go from there." No double standard there - only one standard.
So, do Torath Mosheh Jews have a high standard? Yes, 100%. If you can't meet it then be satisfied that what you believe meets your own personal standard.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
And of course he won't provide his name for anyone to go and see if the event he mentions even took place at all.
Say it did happen - imagine being Rabbi Singer. There you are, setting aside some of your precious time to answer some random dude's questions, parting respectfully, and then all you ever get from him are rebuking emails? That's some real avodat ha-middot if I ever saw it.And of course he won't provide his name for anyone to go and see if the event he mentions even took place at all.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
Really? You promise?
It may take time for him to answer. He's in the middle of יום טוב שני של גלויות, being a fully-religious Jew who keeps all of the mitzvot.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
Really?