Why the Hell . . . .

[JoStories]

Just as serious as you can state "yours" is correct. Yet throughout all of your obnoxious rhetoric, I have yet to see one scripture proving my scenario absolutely incorrect.

1. Personal insults are against the terms of service here. So I am asking you politely to refrain from calling my views obnoxious rhetoric. I have not once insulted you or your beliefs.
2. It is not your scripture that I view as incorrect. It is your interpretations of those scriptures. When I read the Sermon on the Mount, I read beauty and love and kindness for all peoples. I do not see one thing within that that says that Christ wants anyone to fail and be sent to hell. Where this all pertains to Paulian dogma, I do not believe Paul knew Christ, nor understood his words at all. His misogynist and gender biased diatribes make me nauseous. So where you quote him, I do not even bother to read it. its completely opposite what I believe Christ taught at all. But once again, you believe as you see fit and I hope that you find solace in that. Namaste.

 

[james2ko]

Nor can you refute it. That is what makes the people who follow your faith sad to me. I asked my uncle, a very devout Christian, in light of this thread, if he believes as you do. He stated that he honestly believes that the only people who get to go to this 'heaven' are Baptists. All Catholics, :Lutherans, etc, etc., are going to hell, per him. I cannot for the life of me imagine believing something so myopic and so incredibly sad in my life. So if it makes you happy, believe as you will. And I will ask God what the lesson here for me to learn from you and people like you.

Your implications have been, right throughout this thread, that anyone with the temerity to choose to believe differently than your faith purports is destined for hell or some separation from God. You cannot possibly know this. However, it is your right to believe as you wish and I respect that. At least I respect that you have the right to hold that belief. I wish you peace in this. Namaste.

1. Ahhhh...There lies the problem. It seems that you believe I embrace the typical Christian "heaven and hell" status quo.. I don't believe humans go to neither heaven or hell after death.

Touche. Your point is well taken. I would ask, however, if you have friends or relatives who disagree with you and how you view them not being on the receiving end of what you believe to be the end result of your faith's views? Do you feel this is fine that you believe that they are going to hell, or however you view that, such as separation from God? The bottom line here is that you cannot prove your view is correct anymore than I can. So we are both correct, as we understand God and what God says to us. I can say with utmost clarity that I believe differently than you and find your views to be some of the saddest I know of. However, that being said, again I wish you peace.

1. Personal insults are against the terms of service here. So I am asking you politely to refrain from calling my views obnoxious rhetoric. .

2. Calling your rhetoric obnoxious is not an attack against you, it is an attack against your rhetoric. Since you are obviously clueless about what I believe, I ask that you refrain from making any comments about them until you know what they are.

I have not once insulted you or your beliefs

3. Really??

"This has to be one of the most sad and disillusioned posts I have ever read here. To imagine such a horrific scenario means, at least to me, that you do not understand a single thing that Christ taught. Not even one." http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/why-the-hell.186384/page-18#post-4728732
​

Calling my view sad and disillusional, while disparaging my knowledge of Christ sounds a bit insulting, wouldn't you agree?

2. It is not your scripture that I view as incorrect. It is your interpretations of those scriptures. When I read the Sermon on the Mount, I read beauty and love and kindness for all peoples. I do not see one thing within that that says that Christ wants anyone to fail and be sent to hell. Where this all pertains to Paulian dogma, I do not believe Paul knew Christ, nor understood his words at all. His misogynist and gender biased diatribes make me nauseous. So where you quote him, I do not even bother to read it. its completely opposite what I believe Christ taught at all. But once again, you believe as you see fit and I hope that you find solace in that. Namaste.

4. There lies another problem. You throw away sections of scripture like used toilet paper in order to justify your beliefs.

Your implications have been, right throughout this thread, that anyone with the temerity to choose to believe differently than your faith purports is destined for hell or some separation from God. You cannot possibly know this. However, it is your right to believe as you wish and I respect that. At least I respect that you have the right to hold that belief. I wish you peace in this. Namaste.

5. Attacking someone's belief before knowing what those beliefs are is stupid and shameful. This comes from God, not me:

Whoever gives an answer before he listens is stupid and shameful. (Pro 18:13 GWN).​

Unless of course you also treat the book of Proverbs as toilet paper.

 

[james2ko]

That they are all Sheol, except Gehenna. The deepest part of Sheol being Tararoo.

I can't believe I'm saying this but I actually agree . I do believe the Greek Tartaroo is as "real" a place beneath the earth (Hebrew--sheol), as heaven is above it.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I've yet to see a Christian seriously address the implications of god's omnipotence and omniscience. All the response I've seen have been quick digressions into other issues.

I loathe the idea of calling myself a Christian for all the sins it has committed, many even before the body of Jesus was cold, but I try to follow "the Way" as discussed by Jesus (and others). If God is truly in charge, then, as He notes to the Council of El, the buck stops at the top. He had a choice when He took over the Council to be better than the gods He criticized, but here we are, claiming He's just as bad as they were. I feel that if God truly believes in morality, He should own up to His own faults. When I read the Mahabharata, I was impressed that Dharma applied to EVERYONE. Gods who were nutjob evil could be punished just as much as the human or the demon. Demons who did great things could be rewarded just as much as the human or the god. The bible talks a good game about morality but I find Dharma is more consistent and lacks a lot of the "do as I say, not as I do" crap.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Yup. And why not? Why is a god who takes vengeance on people by making them suffer for all eternity for such slights as cowardliness and unbelief not worthy of abhorrence?
.

People can give in to peer pressure (cower) because it can take courage to hate what is bad - Revelation 21:8
The world tries to inhibit good practices, so it takes courage to take a stand to conquer what is befouled in the world - Revelation 2:11
There is No suffering for all eternity because the wicked will simply be destroyed forever (eternity) as Psalms 92:7 states.
We all have the same two (2) choices of either ' repent ' or ' perish ' (be destroyed) - 2 Peter 3:9 - No post-mortem penalty for anyone.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

To sum it up, "Turn or burn / be annihilated". No healing
for those who need it (the wicked).
-

Everyone needs healing, and there happily will be healing for earth's nations - Revelation 22:2
The wicked are being forewarned as the rest are forewarned to 'repent' if you do Not want to 'perish' ( be destroyed - Psalms 92:7 ) - 2 Peter 3:9
If the violent people of Noah's day ( Genesis 6:11 ) were Not executed they would have destroyed everyone righteous on Earth besides each other - Psalms 11:5

 

[Demonslayer]

If the violent people of Noah's day

Why did God make them so violent when he created them?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Ah but if God is omnipotent, which you say God is, then God knows who will deny God and it is God who ends up being culpable for those God sends to hell. Not a very appealing God, IMO.

First, God is Not omnipotent because there are things God can Not do such as: God can Not lie - Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:18
Often people think the wrong religious-myth teaching of a burning forever hell is the Bible's hell.
Whereas, the Bible's hell is simply mankind's stone-cold grave for the sleeping dead. That is why Jesus taught sleep in death - John 11:12-14
Sleep in death just as the old Hebrews Scriptures also teach - Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13; Ecclesiastes 9:5
Would God send anyone righteous to hell ? _______
The day Jesus died Jesus went to hell - Acts of the Apostles 2:27
If biblical hell was a permanent place, then Jesus would still be in hell.
God gave Jesus the power of the resurrection out of the temporary grave (hell) for the sleeping dead - Revelation 1:18 - some to heaven, but most to live happy-and-healthy on Earth.
So, during Jesus' 1,000 governmental rule over Earth, Jesus will unlock mankind's temporary grave (hell) giving those resurrected back to physical life on Earth the opportunity to live forever on Earth as originally offered to Adam before his downfall.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Why did God make them so violent when he created them?

First, Satan did Not start out violent. He was the covering cherub in Eden - Ezekiel 28:13-15, and was drawn out by his own desires - James 1:13-15
There are many faithful angels. So, Satan and his demons by their own choosing chose to love violence.
Adam and Eve were Not created violent, but they like Satan choose to disobey God. Just as Cain chose to disobey God's warning and murdered his brother Abel - Genesis 4:6-7
Adam and Eve chose to break God's Law and passed down their acquired imperfection down to the rest of mankind.
Noah and his immediate family chose Not to join in the violence of that day - Genesis 6:11
Noah and family could easily had brothers, sisters, cousins, etc. who also chose to ignore Noah being a preacher besides being an Ark builder - 2 Peter 2:5
The disobedient people chose to ignore Noah's pointed warning message that God had resolved to bring ruin to that violent world.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Why would you think Jesus went to preach to demons?

1Pe 3:18-20 (ESVST) 18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.
Are you saying that everyone in Noah's day that died in the flood were demons?

Yes, God resurrected the dead Jesus alive in a spirit body. The spirit body Jesus had before God sent the pre-human heavenly Jesus to earth.

The ' spirits in prison ' are Not ' dead people in prison' because the dead know nothing - Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13; John 11:12-14
The ' spirits in prison ' are the wicked fallen angels of Noah's day - 2 Peter 2:4-5; Jude 1:6

So, No, the people who died in Noah's day were people, Not spirits, who filled the earth with violence - Genesis 6:11
The fallen angels (spirits) were Not destroyed at that time, but after they will be let out of the abyss, then at the end of Jesus' 1,000-year governmental rulership over Earth, then they will be destroyed. - Revelation 20:1-3; Revelation 20:7-9

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What is ungodliness and unrighteousness to that God? Who is to say its the God portrayed in the Bible?

Jesus taught its the God portrayed in the Bible.
What is ungodliness and unrighteousness to the God of the Bible is found at Proverbs 6:16-17; Proverbs 6:18-19; Proverbs 8:13

 

[Astravalon]

First, God is Not omnipotent because there are things God can Not do such as: God can Not lie - Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:18

I'm not really sure lying would be considered a 'power'.
That's more of a weakness, as it's a deviation from
reality. With the kind of power He has, lying wouldn't be
necessary.

He is omnipotent (Revelation 19:6).

First, Satan did Not start out violent. He was the covering cherub in Eden - Ezekiel 28:13-15, and was drawn out by his own desires - James 1:13-15
There are many faithful angels. So, Satan and his demons by their own choosing chose to love violence.
Adam and Eve were Not created violent, but they like Satan choose to disobey God. Just as Cain chose to disobey God's warning and murdered his brother Abel - Genesis 4:6-7
Adam and Eve chose to break God's Law and passed down their acquired imperfection down to the rest of mankind.
Noah and his immediate family chose Not to join in the violence of that day - Genesis 6:11
Noah and family could easily had brothers, sisters, cousins, etc. who also chose to ignore Noah being a preacher besides being an Ark builder - 2 Peter 2:5
The disobedient people chose to ignore Noah's pointed warning message that God had resolved to bring ruin to that violent world.

Then the question might be, Why did God create those
which He already knew would become disobedient?


-

 

[JoStories]

First, God is Not omnipotent because there are things God can Not do such as: God can Not lie - Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:18
Often people think the wrong religious-myth teaching of a burning forever hell is the Bible's hell.
Whereas, the Bible's hell is simply mankind's stone-cold grave for the sleeping dead. That is why Jesus taught sleep in death - John 11:12-14
Sleep in death just as the old Hebrews Scriptures also teach - Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13; Ecclesiastes 9:5
Would God send anyone righteous to hell ? _______
The day Jesus died Jesus went to hell - Acts of the Apostles 2:27
If biblical hell was a permanent place, then Jesus would still be in hell.
God gave Jesus the power of the resurrection out of the temporary grave (hell) for the sleeping dead - Revelation 1:18 - some to heaven, but most to live happy-and-healthy on Earth.
So, during Jesus' 1,000 governmental rule over Earth, Jesus will unlock mankind's temporary grave (hell) giving those resurrected back to physical life on Earth the opportunity to live forever on Earth as originally offered to Adam before his downfall.

I understand that you believe this but what of those who don't? What of those who have experienced God in a different manner which then led them to follow a different faith or even the lack of one? I have no issue with people such as yourself who do believe this with the exception that I find some views I have read here very sad. For one thing, I don't believe in hell at all. Nor do I believe in sin or any of the rules of your faith. This is not in any way meant to disrespect or insult you or the tenets of your faith URAVIP2ME. It is simply that I don't believe in those things. I hope you understand my POV. Peace to you.

 

[JoStories]

Jesus taught its the God portrayed in the Bible.
What is ungodliness and unrighteousness to the God of the Bible is found at Proverbs 6:16-17; Proverbs 6:18-19; Proverbs 8:13

Understood but here again, this book, in my view, was written by men. God did not come down and pen a book, but I do believe that God could have inspired SOME of what was written. However, that being said, humankind definitely added to it or there would not be mistakes and contradictions contained in the Bible. IE: the world is not flat, rabbits do no chew their cuds, etc. And there would be no disclaimer to the book of Mark. These things are there for all to see. And one cannot simply dismiss them out of hand. They must be explained. Therefore, what becomes ungodliness or unrighteousness for you could very well be vastly different for me.

 

[JoStories]

That's right. The reader ultimately judges for themselves. If and/or when they judge that my view is the most logical, would you assume, based on your views, they are wrong? I certainly hope not.

If a person feels that your path is right for them, mores the power to them. I applaud that they have found solace in your faith. If, however, they find more solace in mine and choose to follow that path, one would hope that you at the least, honor that and respect that they could be more content there. Yet, many do not see that and then condemn the person as deluded and going to 'hell'. That is what I find sad and unfortunate.

 

[james2ko]

If a person feels that your path is right for them, mores the power to them. I applaud that they have found solace in your faith. If, however, they find more solace in mine and choose to follow that path, one would hope that you at the least, honor that and respect that they could be more content there. Yet, many do not see that and then condemn the person as deluded and going to 'hell'. That is what I find sad and unfortunate.

Oh, kind of like what you're falsely accusing me of doing?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I'm not really sure lying would be considered a 'power'.
That's more of a weakness, as it's a deviation from
reality. With the kind of power He has, lying wouldn't be
necessary.
He is omnipotent (Revelation 19:6).
Then the question might be, Why did God create those
which He already knew would become disobedient?
-

Almighty might come across as there is Nothing God can Not do - Revelation 19:6; Exodus 6:3
But since God has set the standards of decency ( Golden Rule ) then God can Not lie, steal, cheat, etc. Thus God is Not omnipotent and can Not go against His standards.
God's standard of ' life for life ' is what balances the scales of justice. Equal life for equal life.
Who could balance the scales of justice for Adam. We can't because we are all sinners - Romans 5:12
So, God would have to supply a sinless person to be a ransom ( get out of jail ) for us.
That is why in God's justice that God sent the pre-human sinless heavenly Jesus to earth to be our ransom - Matthew 20:28

Where does it say human creation was created to become disobedient ?__________
Adam was created genetically and mentally sound in every respect having a perfectly healthy sound heart, mind and body.
Wasn't Adam forewarned that disobedience would result in death ?_______ - Genesis 2:17
The sentence of death was pronounced ' before ' they sinned.
There would be No need to give that forewarning if God knew Adam would be disobedient.
Eve said it was the serpent ( Satan - Revelation 12:9,12) and Not God, who is the ' Master of Deception ' - Genesis 3:13

 

[Ingledsva]

...

5. Attacking someone's belief before knowing what those beliefs are is stupid and shameful. This comes from God, not me:

Whoever gives an answer before he listens is stupid and shameful. (Pro 18:13 GWN). ...​

​

I translate that one differently.

Pro 18:13 To reject advice before one contemplates/understands folly, is to that one disrespectful/dishonorable.

*

 

[Astravalon]

Almighty might come across as there is Nothing God can Not do - Revelation 19:6; Exodus 6:3
But since God has set the standards of decency ( Golden Rule ) then God can Not lie, steal, cheat, etc. Thus God is Not omnipotent and can Not go against His standards.

Where does it say human creation was created to become disobedient ?__________
Adam was created genetically and mentally sound in every respect having a perfectly healthy sound heart, mind and body.
Wasn't Adam forewarned that disobedience would result in death ?_______ - Genesis 2:17
The sentence of death was pronounced ' before ' they sinned.
There would be No need to give that forewarning if God knew Adam would be disobedient.
Eve said it was the serpent ( Satan - Revelation 12:9,12) and Not God, who is the ' Master of Deception ' - Genesis 3:13

The above demonstrates what one has to do to justify
annihilation / eternal torment: One must somehow
downgrade God's status from Absolute Divinity to that of
a demi-god or, at best, super-angel. This is the only way
one can make the annihilation / hell thing work; one has to
omit both His Omnipotence and, as demonstrated in your
second paragraph, His Omniscience. One has to
overlook the fact that He's All Powerful and All Knowing
(He knows the end from the beginning, before any of it
came to be).

I don't worship demigods or angels at this time, so I find
it difficult to get on board with such theories. I don't know
what else I can tell ya.



-

 

[Astravalon]

The above demonstrates what one has to do to justify
annihilation / eternal torment: One must somehow
downgrade God's status from Absolute Divinity to that of
a demi-god or, at best, super-angel. This is the only way
one can make the annihilation / hell thing work; one has to
omit both His Omnipotence and, as demonstrated in your
second paragraph, His Omniscience. One has to
overlook the fact that He's All Powerful and All Knowing
(He knows the end from the beginning, before any of it
came to be).

I don't worship demigods or angels at this time, so I find
it difficult to get on board with such theories. I don't know
what else I can tell ya.



-

There's something else that's painfully missing in
Christianity as far as God being "All-[whatever]", and
that is "All-Attractive". This is emphasized more in
Hinduism. They say that even Cupid (!) can't resist
Him.

Therefore, I seriously doubt that anyone who sets
their eyes on Him is going to turn away (which is why
the postmortem 'grace-period' theory previously
shared by james2ko has its merits). Ultimately, no
one is going to want to resist Him; just looking at Him
is going to be a thrill; they're not going to want to give
that up. And that's just His external appearance, from
what I understand.

-