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Why the Hell . . . .

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
The above demonstrates what one has to do to justify
annihilation / eternal torment: One must somehow
downgrade God's status from Absolute Divinity to that of
a demi-god or, at best, super-angel. This is the only way
one can make the annihilation / hell thing work; one has to
omit both His Omnipotence and, as demonstrated in your
second paragraph, His Omniscience. One has to
overlook the fact that He's All Powerful and All Knowing
(He knows the end from the beginning, before any of it
came to be).
I don't worship demigods or angels at this time, so I find
it difficult to get on board with such theories. I don't know
what else I can tell ya.
-

Sure God knows the final outcome, but as to who will be around to be part of that final outcome is Not known.
Earth will abide forever - Ecclesiastes 1:4 B, but as to who will be part of the everlasting Earth is unknown.
Not known because as Revelation 20:8 B mentions an unknown number as the sands of the sea are an unknown number.
So, as we can't count or measure the sands of the sea - Jeremiah 33:22 - we don't know who will Not repent and will perish ( be destroyed - Psalms 92:7 )
That free-will choice is given to each person. God forces No one to serve Him.
Some people choose to be like the restless sea - Isaiah 57:20 - and they will 'perish' ( be destroyed ) - 2 Peter 3:9
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Ultimately, no one is going to want to resist Him; just looking at Him
is going to be a thrill; they're not going to want to give
that up. And that's just His external appearance, from
what I understand. :)
-

Jesus taught God is a spirit person - John 4:23-24
People do Not see God. People can't look at God.
As John wrote - John 1:18 - that No man has seen God at any time, and 1 John 4:12
We can Not see God and live - Exodus 33:20
 

Scott C.

Just one guy
My view on the subject of hell is...

When we die, our spirits go to Paradise or to Spirit Prison. The gospel is taught in Spirit Prison and people can accept or reject it. Whether or not the person had the change to accept the gospel on earth, plays into the equation of divine judgement. The wicked will suffer in spirit prison and we can call their experience hell. Others in prison, who are not wicked, will not so suffer, but will nevertheless feel "in prison" as they await redemption and the chance to go to Paradise to be in the presence of God. Everyone one of these souls in spirit prison will eventually be resurrected from the dead into immortal physical bodies and will live forever in a degree of Heaven. I believe that the lowest degree of heaven is far more glorious than what we can imagine.

This "hell" in the spirit world is a place of learning humility and love and other attributes needed to move on. I think of it as God's alternative school. Even Hitler, after much long and hard suffering will come forth in the resurrection as a changed person and inherit the lowest kingdom of glory (at least I assume that's the best he can expect).

There's another class of people called the sons of perdition. Satan and his angels are now sons of perdition. There are some, although I believe only a few, who will go to be with them and will never be able to leave. They are in "outer darkness" where there is no light, no love, and no hope. This is the only hell that literally has no end.

In the final analysis, everyone chooses where they will be and are blessed "according to their desires." Our actions in this life and the next indicate to what degree we want to love and to serve God, to be in his presence, and to enjoy his quality of existence. Everyone will acknowledge that God's judgments are just.

Everyone who goes to a degree of heaven is able to do so only through the merits and mercy of Jesus and his atonement. They are all "heirs of salvation."
 
Sure God knows the final outcome, but as to who will be around to be part of that final outcome is Not known.
By Him, it would be, yes (Psalms 139:16; Job 14:5; Psalms 56:8). ;)

Jesus taught God is a spirit person - John 4:23-24
People do Not see God. People can't look at God.
As John wrote - John 1:18 - that No man has seen God at any time, and 1 John 4:12
We can Not see God and live - Exodus 33:20
Then I guess life in heaven won't last long, either. :D

--
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
I translate that one differently.

Pro 18:13 To reject advice before one contemplates/understands folly, is to that one disrespectful/dishonorable.

Are you or have you been a member of any past or present bible translation committee?
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
By Him, it would be, yes (Psalms 139:16; Job 14:5; Psalms 56:8). ;)
Then I guess life in heaven won't last long, either. :D
--

Please notice what Revelation 20:6 says about those who go to heaven. It is forever because ' second death ' will Not affect them.

Isn't Psalms 139:14-16 talking about DNA blueprint that all our members are down in writing.....
Psalms 139:24 asks to be lead in the way of eternity. ( Not past tense as in already a done deal )

Job 14:5-7 is about us being short-lived due to inherited imperfection from father Adam
Job 14:12-14 Job likens death to sleep and the dead need to be woken up from death's deep sleep.- Psalms 49:15
As to who will be faithful ' after ' they are resurrected is an unknown number.
People can die prematurely - Ecclesiastes 7:16-17

Psalms 56 is a prayer for when persecuted
* In God I put may trust - Psalms 56:4
* My tears in your skin bottle - Psalms 56:8
* and that God took note of David's wonderings - 1 Samuel 27:1
* What can a mere human do to me ? - Psalms 56:4; Psalms 56:11
 
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Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
There are many faithful angels. So, Satan and his demons by their own choosing chose to love violence.
God can't handle a temper tantrum?

Just as Cain chose to disobey God's warning and murdered his brother Abel
Is there a verse where God forbids murder prior to Cain's?

Noah and family could easily had brothers, sisters, cousins, etc. who also chose to ignore Noah being a preacher besides being an Ark builder
Do you have a bomb shelter to survive World War 3? If not, why not?

What is ungodliness and unrighteousness to the God of the Bible is found at
How does God classify these proverbs:

3:32 For the perverse is an abomination to Jehovah; But his friendship is with the upright.
(I thought Jesus said that even sinners love only those who love them back.)

4:3For the lips of a strange woman drop honey, And her mouth is smoother than oil: 4 But in the end she is bitter as wormwood, Sharp as a two-edged sword.
(What about bad men? I get this is supposedly a king talking to his son, but this reeks of Kirk Cameron logic.)

4:10 Lest strangers be filled with thy strength, And thy labors [be] in the house of an alien, 11 And thou mourn at thy latter end, When thy flesh and thy body are consumed
(I thought treating the "strangers", aka: "people that are not us", was mandatory?)

6:6 Go to the ant, thou sluggard; Consider her ways, and be wise: 7 Which having no chief, Overseer, or ruler, 8 Provideth her bread in the summer, And gathereth her food in the harvest.
(Ants HAVE queens, as bees do, btw. If rulership is so bad, why is the "king" speaking? Why doesn't he resign? Also, if people see ants nowadays, they are usually poisoned. So, maybe being on the DL is a good idea too.)

6:12 A worthless person, a man of iniquity, Is he that walketh with a perverse mouth; 13 That winketh with his eyes, that speaketh with his feet, That maketh signs with his fingers
(Well, there goes a lot of people in the bible.)

6:17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, And hands that shed innocent blood; 18 A heart that deviseth wicked purposes, Feet that are swift in running to mischief, 19 A false witness that uttereth lies, And he that soweth discord among brethren.
(So, the monarchy and religious governments, then.)

6:24 To keep thee from the evil woman, From the flattery of the foreigner's tongue.
(But what if the king, who just warned about liars, is lying about foreign women? What if he's just racist? And if Solomon did these verses, isn't that more than hypocritical of him?)

8:13 The fear of Jehovah is to hate evil: Pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, And the perverse mouth, do I hate.
(But you're teaching your kid to be a racist jerk misogynist.)

8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, Before the earth was.
(I thought arrogance was a sin.)

10:1 The proverbs of Solomon. A wise son maketh a glad father; But a foolish son is the heaviness of his mother.
(LOL. Way to take responsibility, Dad.)

And so on, and so forth. Proverbs is mostly about fearing God and immigrants (hired to build the stuff and plan the stuff, per the story of Solomon's Temple) and women. I get more morals out of Aesop's Fables.

People do Not see God. People can't look at God.
As John wrote - John 1:18 - that No man has seen God at any time, and 1 John 4:12
We can Not see God and live - Exodus 33:20
Adam
Eve
Cain
Abraham
Moses
Per Jesus "anyone pure of heart"

Someone in John (again) can't understand what's been written prior to his nonsense.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
God can't handle a temper tantrum?
Is there a verse where God forbids murder prior to Cain's?
Do you have a bomb shelter to survive World War 3? If not, why not?
How does God classify these proverbs:
3:32 For the perverse is an abomination to Jehovah; But his friendship is with the upright.
(I thought Jesus said that even sinners love only those who love them back.)
4:3For the lips of a strange woman drop honey, And her mouth is smoother than oil: 4 But in the end she is bitter as wormwood, Sharp as a two-edged sword.
(What about bad men? I get this is supposedly a king talking to his son, but this reeks of Kirk Cameron logic.)
4:10 Lest strangers be filled with thy strength, And thy labors [be] in the house of an alien, 11 And thou mourn at thy latter end, When thy flesh and thy body are consumed
(I thought treating the "strangers", aka: "people that are not us", was mandatory?)
6:6 Go to the ant, thou sluggard; Consider her ways, and be wise: 7 Which having no chief, Overseer, or ruler, 8 Provideth her bread in the summer, And gathereth her food in the harvest.
(Ants HAVE queens, as bees do, btw. If rulership is so bad, why is the "king" speaking? Why doesn't he resign? Also, if people see ants nowadays, they are usually poisoned. So, maybe being on the DL is a good idea too.)
6:12 A worthless person, a man of iniquity, Is he that walketh with a perverse mouth; 13 That winketh with his eyes, that speaketh with his feet, That maketh signs with his fingers
(Well, there goes a lot of people in the bible.)
6:17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, And hands that shed innocent blood; 18 A heart that deviseth wicked purposes, Feet that are swift in running to mischief, 19 A false witness that uttereth lies, And he that soweth discord among brethren.
(So, the monarchy and religious governments, then.)
6:24 To keep thee from the evil woman, From the flattery of the foreigner's tongue.
(But what if the king, who just warned about liars, is lying about foreign women? What if he's just racist? And if Solomon did these verses, isn't that more than hypocritical of him?)
8:13 The fear of Jehovah is to hate evil: Pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, And the perverse mouth, do I hate.
(But you're teaching your kid to be a racist jerk misogynist.)
8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, Before the earth was.
(I thought arrogance was a sin.)
10:1 The proverbs of Solomon. A wise son maketh a glad father; But a foolish son is the heaviness of his mother.
(LOL. Way to take responsibility, Dad.)
And so on, and so forth. Proverbs is mostly about fearing God and immigrants (hired to build the stuff and plan the stuff, per the story of Solomon's Temple) and women. I get more morals out of Aesop's Fables.
Adam
Eve
Cain
Abraham
Moses
Per Jesus "anyone pure of heart"
Someone in John (again) can't understand what's been written prior to his nonsense.

It would be easier for me to address one thing at a time.
What temper tantrum ?
Why would there need to be a verse forbidding murder before Cain ?
It was Cain's devolution of his personality that he was giving in to his wrong impulses.
Cain was the one showing a lack of appreciation for life - Jude 1:11
There is No mention of anyone else developing such a wrong disposition.
That is why God forewarned Cain ' before ' he did something very wrong.- Genesis 4:6-7

There will be No WWIII because Armageddon (war to ends all wars) will happen before a WWIII would happen.
We are nearing the ' final signal', so to speak, of 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 when ' they ' (powers that be ) will be saying, "Peace and Security " as a precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14
The words from Jesus' mouth will execute the wicked - Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:11; Revelation 19:14-16
Don't need a bomb shelter - Isaiah 26:20
The humble 'sheep' - Matthew 25:31-33 - will be saved (delivered/rescued) through the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14 and Armageddon.
They can remain alive on Earth, and continue to live on Earth, right into the start of Jesus' coming millennium-long day of governing over Earth.
When Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among people of goodwill.
 
Please notice what Revelation 20:6 says about those who go to heaven. It is forever because ' second death ' will Not affect them.

Isn't Psalms 139:14-16 talking about DNA blueprint that all our members are down in writing.....
Psalms 139:24 asks to be lead in the way of eternity. ( Not past tense as in already a done deal )

Job 14:5-7 is about us being short-lived due to inherited imperfection from father Adam
Job 14:12-14 Job likens death to sleep and the dead need to be woken up from death's deep sleep.- Psalms 49:15
As to who will be faithful ' after ' they are resurrected is an unknown number.
People can die prematurely - Ecclesiastes 7:16-17

Psalms 56 is a prayer for when persecuted
* In God I put may trust - Psalms 56:4
* My tears in your skin bottle - Psalms 56:8
* and that God took note of David's wonderings - 1 Samuel 27:1
* What can a mere human do to me ? - Psalms 56:4; Psalms 56:11
Okay, none of this has anything to do with the post to
which it is responding that I can see.
I think we're done. :)

-
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
You don't believe Daesh does what it does in the name of Allah? They actually shout the name of Allah when they do what they do!

I believe I don't have any first hand experience with that but I will accept that they do that. Would you like to go through it line by line. I don't believe their doing it in the name of Allah will earn them anything but God's condemnation.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Yup. And why not? Why is a god who takes vengeance on people by making them suffer for all eternity for such slights as cowardliness and unbelief not worthy of abhorrence?


.

I believe the unbelief amounts to a rejection of all that is good and an acceptance of all that is evil. Probably people don't think of it that way but that is what it is.
 

Demonslayer

Well-Known Member
I believe it is a false fact. Now that you have mentioned it, it has become a fact.

It's not a fact, it's an opinion. Some people love the taste of apple pie. Some people do not love the taste of apple pie.

The statement "apple pie tastes good" is not a fact, it is an opinion. It isn't true or false that apple pie tastes good. It isn't true or false that apple pie tastes bad. Apple pie has a taste, and it is opinion whether or not that taste is "good" or "bad" relative to the person doing the tasting.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
It's not a fact, it's an opinion. Some people love the taste of apple pie. Some people do not love the taste of apple pie.

The statement "apple pie tastes good" is not a fact, it is an opinion. It isn't true or false that apple pie tastes good. It isn't true or false that apple pie tastes bad. Apple pie has a taste, and it is opinion whether or not that taste is "good" or "bad" relative to the person doing the tasting.

I believe opinions are facts although not always true facts.
 
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