Why the Hell . . . .

[JoStories]

What no brainer opportunity? Having to accept the "Word of God" based on 100% no brainer (blind) faith in someone's "Revealed" hearsay? It makes no sense that God would give man the unequaled power of reason, and then expect us not to use it in such a critical decision.





Only one problem with reincarnation, how can we learn from our past or correct our mistakes if we don't remember them or even the individual we once were? "Feelings" of a past life are as unsubstantiated as the other feelings people have that they "communicate" with God. And no one can tell me I'm not listening, or can't hear because I don't have faith or whatever ephemeral quality I was apparently not endowed with. I trust (have faith) in my demonstrated, inherent ability to reason, and have learned to live with the doubt. By all appearances, this is our one shot, make the most of it instead of procrastinating to the next life.

Past lives can be accessed through meditation, dreams and much more. There is, IMO, far more than this one life to learn from. And yes, I believe I speak from experience.

 

[Muffled]

But you have concocted the definition you need, with your

"I believe "Eternal" does not mean final. There are two meanings: one is never ending but the other is having no time at all. I believe the latter describes Hell."​

Really! So just what do you think "eternal" means in Matthew 18:8?

"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire,"​

Or . . . .

"And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (2 Thess. 1:9).

"Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire," (Jude 7).

"These men are those who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever," (Jude12-13).​

To acknowledge that there is suffering going on in hell is to acknowledge that some is in hell.


Fine, but why then does he make them suffer?


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So you are going to say it means final and that somehow people raised from Hell are covered under that definition?

I believe Hell will go when the earth goes. so I believe it means an extremely long time as well as timeless.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away,

I believe timeless.

I believe the punishment if final but the fires have been extinguished. There is certainly a comparable event in the end times but it is not Hell.

I believe the black darkness (which is not Hell) will exist forever but that does not necessitate that the punishment will.

I believe God does not make people suffer. Peoples sins make them suffer. God saves people from sin so they won't suffer.

I believe the suffering is future so your interpretation of my statement as present was presumptive and not proof.

 

[Muffled]

So, you feel that making people suffer for all eternity for such things as cowardliness and unbelief is just. You do know, don't you, that most people find such revenge based torture to be abhorrent.


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I believe that means they abhor God who is a God of vengeance.

 

[Muffled]

Daesh does what it does in the name of Allah. Without believing in the concept of heaven and hell they would not exist. They die because they think they are going to paradise. No paradise, no martyrdom. Apparently they believe only others are going to hell. The existence of heaven and hell are the inventions of people who want to exercise control over others and use religion to accomplish it. And for thousands of years they have been successful. At the cost of millions of innocent lives. The doctrine of heaven and hell, no matter what religion, has resulted in more than half the worlds population being in servitude, not to a god, but to those who claim to speak for god. Human beings, not gods wrote all of our "holy books". Hell was meant to scare ignorant people into submission. The idea of hell serves no other function.

I believe there isn't a shred of evidence to support that view.

 

[Skwim]

Perhaps a new thread that discusses that concept? Just a thought Skwim. I know I would enjoy it as I enjoy most of your posts.

Give it a shot. Personally, I've seen too many non-answers to expect anything different.
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[Demonslayer]

I believe there isn't a shred of evidence to support that view.

You don't believe Daesh does what it does in the name of Allah? They actually shout the name of Allah when they do what they do!

 

[Skwim]

I believe that means they abhor God who is a God of vengeance.

Yup. And why not? Why is a god who takes vengeance on people by making them suffer for all eternity for such slights as cowardliness and unbelief not worthy of abhorrence?


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[blue taylor]

I believe there isn't a shred of evidence to support that view.

It's not a view, it's a fact.

 

[james2ko]

The operative word here being believe.

The operative implication here is that you cannot refute it.

 

[james2ko]

Really? You got this from God God's self? Because as far as I can see, its your belief and nothing more. I wonder what you say to other peoples of other faiths? Do you tell all Hindus they are going to hell? What about Jews or Muslims or Buddhists or any other of the myriad faiths out there?

Can you post a link where I said, or I'll make it even easier for you, implied, that all Hindus, Jews, Muslims, or Buddhists are going to hell?

 

[james2ko]

I could not possibly disagree more. Who are you to state that this is the truth? How in the world do you explain the infirmities of cancer to someone who wants to believe that Christ would physically heal them? If you speak only here of your 'heaven', prove that this is so. Since we know you cannot, your statement is purely supposition and worse, speculation. Such a statement as this insults any and all people who are members here and who may have mental issues or physical ones, or even pretending that they are suffering from this now will lead them to this 'heaven' is an outright lie. It is false hope and is wrong no matter how you view it.

Who are you to state this is not truth?

 

[james2ko]

This has to be one of the most sad and disillusioned posts I have ever read here. To imagine such a horrific scenario means, at least to me, that you do not understand a single thing that Christ taught. Not even one.

Can you? Of course not because it is your views of what these scriptures state and only yours. I might see and certainly do see, what is written in a completely different way. Again, who is to say who is wrong or right? What can be 'proven' from scripture at all? It is all supposition. One reads the words and this one sees it that way and another this way. Can you seriously state that your view is correct?

Just as serious as you can state "yours" is correct. Yet throughout all of your obnoxious rhetoric, I have yet to see one scripture proving my scenario absolutely incorrect.

 

[james2ko]

What I highlighted and underlined is, my where I am sitting, part of your overall problem. You are the one doing the inductive reasoning, and no one else. It is YOU who are making these assumptions and not God nor Jesus. YOU and you alone. What I might see with these passages might be totally different and who is to say who is wrong or right? Do I assume you are? Based on your views, I certainly hope not.

That's right. The reader ultimately judges for themselves. If and/or when they judge that my view is the most logical, would you assume, based on your views, they are wrong? I certainly hope not.

 

[JustWondering]

How do you clearly perceive the wind?

Like everyone else, with one or more of my five senses. So, since people can see rainbows, that must mean Leprechaun's exist, don't you agree?

 

[Marsh]

Just what is accomplished by putting people in hell?.

Revenge? A little schadenfreude perhaps? Some Christian writers have expressed the pleasure they'd experience in Heaven looking down at those suffering below. But maybe the original intent was to use Hell as a control mechanism. Certainly with young children you can use it as a sort of boogeyman. Hell-fire and brimstone preachers have long used it to control their flocks. Hell's purpose certainly can't be classic deterrence. For it to be that then some folk have to get out and warn the rest of the populace. Maybe there should be guided tours, like in the scared straight documentary? I don't know, it's a mystery.

 

[james2ko]

Tartaroo is considered the deepest depths of Sheol.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to Tararoo (the deepest abyss of Hades/SHEOL), and delivered them into binding darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Remember the Bosom of Abraham story? The righteous recline in peace at the elevated owners table, and the wicked one is below, burning with desire for even a drop of what they have..

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What's your point??

 

[Ingledsva]

What's your point??

That they are all Sheol, except Gehenna.

The deepest part of Sheol being Tararoo.

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[JoStories]

The operative implication here is that you cannot refute it.

Nor can you refute it. That is what makes the people who follow your faith sad to me. I asked my uncle, a very devout Christian, in light of this thread, if he believes as you do. He stated that he honestly believes that the only people who get to go to this 'heaven' are Baptists. All Catholics, :Lutherans, etc, etc., are going to hell, per him. I cannot for the life of me imagine believing something so myopic and so incredibly sad in my life. So if it makes you happy, believe as you will. And I will ask God what the lesson here for me to learn from you and people like you.

 

[JoStories]

Can you post a link where I said, or I'll make it even easier for you, implied, that all Hindus, Jews, Muslims, or Buddhists are going to hell?

Your implications have been, right throughout this thread, that anyone with the temerity to choose to believe differently than your faith purports is destined for hell or some separation from God. You cannot possibly know this. However, it is your right to believe as you wish and I respect that. At least I respect that you have the right to hold that belief. I wish you peace in this. Namaste.

 

[JoStories]

Who are you to state this is not truth?

Touche. Your point is well taken. I would ask, however, if you have friends or relatives who disagree with you and how you view them not being on the receiving end of what you believe to be the end result of your faith's views? Do you feel this is fine that you believe that they are going to hell, or however you view that, such as separation from God? The bottom line here is that you cannot prove your view is correct anymore than I can. So we are both correct, as we understand God and what God says to us. I can say with utmost clarity that I believe differently than you and find your views to be some of the saddest I know of. However, that being said, again I wish you peace.