Why should one believe that something the TaNaKh predicts would actually literally occur?

[BilliardsBall]

All,

1. Jews win 12% of Nobel prizes and are 1/4 of 1% of Earth's population. That means Jews win more Nobel prizes than Gentiles at a rate of 48:1! Google "current Israeli science innovations" if you want a glimpse of all the Jewish people are doing.

2. There are prophecies that the Jews would be a light and a blessing to the nations in diaspora.

3. OF COURSE, EVERYONE ignored the prophecies that the Jews would be hated (jealousy, perhaps?) in ALL the places to where they would scatter before reforming as a Jewish state after MILLENNIA in diaspora.

Everyone ignored these prophecies due to spiritual blindness or stubbornness or both. These CANNOT be self-fulfilled prophecies.

The Bible is the Word of God!

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

2. There are prophecies that the Jews would be a light and a blessing to the nations in diaspora.

3. OF COURSE, EVERYONE ignored the prophecies that the Jews would be hated (jealousy, perhaps?) in ALL the places to where they would scatter before reforming as a Jewish state after MILLENNIA in diaspora.

Everyone ignored these prophecies due to spiritual blindness or stubbornness or both. These CANNOT be self-fulfilled prophecies.

Of course they can be; Christians use the Bible itself as justification for Jew-hatred. That's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Christian support for Zionism is based partly off of the Bible's claims that the Jews will be gathered again after millennia in diaspora. That's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

The Bible is the Word of God!

The Bible supports contradictory theological positions i.e. faith without works is meaningless & faith alone - salvation. If it's the word of God then your god is incapable of being consistent.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

All,

1. Jews win 12% of Nobel prizes and are 1/4 of 1% of Earth's population. That means Jews win more Nobel prizes than Gentiles at a rate of 48:1! Google "current Israeli science innovations" if you want a glimpse of all the Jewish people are doing.

2. There are prophecies that the Jews would be a light and a blessing to the nations in diaspora.

3. OF COURSE, EVERYONE ignored the prophecies that the Jews would be hated (jealousy, perhaps?) in ALL the places to where they would scatter before reforming as a Jewish state after MILLENNIA in diaspora.

Everyone ignored these prophecies due to spiritual blindness or stubbornness or both. These CANNOT be self-fulfilled prophecies.

The Bible is the Word of God!

Let's start at the beginning:

- give us a specific prophecy (an actual quote, not a paraphrase)
- give us the specific event that you think demonstrates that the prophecy has been fulfilled.

Then we'll have a basis for discussion.

 

[paarsurrey]

All,

1. Jews win 12% of Nobel prizes and are 1/4 of 1% of Earth's population. That means Jews win more Nobel prizes than Gentiles at a rate of 48:1! Google "current Israeli science innovations" if you want a glimpse of all the Jewish people are doing.

2. There are prophecies that the Jews would be a light and a blessing to the nations in diaspora.

3. OF COURSE, EVERYONE ignored the prophecies that the Jews would be hated (jealousy, perhaps?) in ALL the places to where they would scatter before reforming as a Jewish state after MILLENNIA in diaspora.

Everyone ignored these prophecies due to spiritual blindness or stubbornness or both. These CANNOT be self-fulfilled prophecies.

The Bible is the Word of God!

"There are prophecies that the Jews would be a light and a blessing to the nations in diaspora."

The word Jew is not even once mentioned in the Torah, what to speak of its being light to anybody ?
Please
Regards

 

[BilliardsBall]

Of course they can be; Christians use the Bible itself as justification for Jew-hatred. That's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Christian support for Zionism is based partly off of the Bible's claims that the Jews will be gathered again after millennia in diaspora. That's a self-fulfilling prophecy.




The Bible supports contradictory theological positions i.e. faith without works is meaningless & faith alone - salvation. If it's the word of God then your god is incapable of being consistent.

Thank you for your comments. But you did not respond to my thesis:

Jews did not seek to be hated in every country to which they were sent (including non-Christian nations as you mentioned Christian nations above). They were also exceeding blessings in each of those countries, making the hate and persecution inexplicable in large part (as when people note that Einstein might have given the bomb to the Axis powers). They uniquely returned to their homeland an intact people after 2,500 years.

If you're an Italian American, in contrast, I imagine you don't even speak Italian now.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Let's start at the beginning:

- give us a specific prophecy (an actual quote, not a paraphrase)
- give us the specific event that you think demonstrates that the prophecy has been fulfilled.

Then we'll have a basis for discussion.

There are numerous such prophecies. We can start with those to Abraham:

"In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice." Genesis 22:18

"Your descendants will also be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east and to the north and to the south; and in you and in your descendants shall all the families of the earth be blessed. Genesis 28:14

 

[BilliardsBall]

"There are prophecies that the Jews would be a light and a blessing to the nations in diaspora."

The word Jew is not even once mentioned in the Torah, what to speak of its being light to anybody ?
Please
Regards

I would think when I used the word Jew on this forum, being a Jew myself, you and I would understand instantly I'm speaking of the descendants of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, colloquially known internationally as the Jewish people.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

There are numerous such prophecies. We can start with those to Abraham:

"In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice." Genesis 22:18

Do you think this is specific enough for us to say that it's fulfilled? Any group of people on the planet can point to things they've done to make the world a better place.

"Your descendants will also be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east and to the north and to the south; and in you and in your descendants shall all the families of the earth be blessed. Genesis 28:14

And what readon do you have to assume that this is a prediction about recent history and not a postdiction about, say, the Assyrian or Babylonian exile?

 

[paarsurrey]

I would think when I used the word Jew on this forum, being a Jew myself, you and I would understand instantly I'm speaking of the descendants of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, colloquially known internationally as the Jewish people.

But why use a name that has never been used by Moses. Please
Regards

 

[BilliardsBall]

Do you think this is specific enough for us to say that it's fulfilled? Any group of people on the planet can point to things they've done to make the world a better place.


And what readon do you have to assume that this is a prediction about recent history and not a postdiction about, say, the Assyrian or Babylonian exile?

1. We are beginning basic, with Genesis. There are numerous prophecies. But--go ahead and tell us all the people groups (of comparable size) that have blessed the intelligentsia of the world, the arts, sciences, sports, etc. proportionate to their population ratio, like the Jews:

Group 1 of Blessing:

Group 2 of Blessing:

Group 3 of Blessing:

2. We have great reasons to know this is recent AND ancient history as prophecy. We need to go past Genesis to prophecies of the diaspora(s). But, sneak preview--there was also great blessing through the descendant of Abraham, Jesus Christ.

 

[BilliardsBall]

But why use a name that has never been used by Moses. Please
Regards

1. Because everyone on this forum knows what a "Jew" is.

2. Because it's ponderous to say, "Jacobean descendants of Abraham".

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

1. We are beginning basic, with Genesis. There are numerous prophecies. But--go ahead and tell us all the people groups (of comparable size) that have blessed the intelligentsia of the world, the arts, sciences, sports, etc. proportionate to their population ratio, like the Jews:

Group 1 of Blessing:

Group 2 of Blessing:

Group 3 of Blessing:

The Scots, for one.

Regardless, every culture on Earth has "blessed" the rest of humanity in some way. The prophecy fails condition 3 (it must be unambiguous) and condition 4 (it must be improbable). It can't reasonably be taken as Biblical foreknowledge.

2. We have great reasons to know this is recent AND ancient history as prophecy. We need to go past Genesis to prophecies of the diaspora(s). But, sneak preview--there was also great blessing through the descendant of Abraham, Jesus Christ.

I may not have been clear enough. I was asking you to justify whatever date you have for the authorship of this passage... though it's a moot point now, since the passage doesn't count as Biblical foreknowledge regardless of when it was written.

So your first example fails. Do you have any better ones?

 

[paarsurrey]

1. Because everyone on this forum knows what a "Jew" is.

2. Because it's ponderous to say, "Jacobean descendants of Abraham".

"Jacobean descendants of Abraham

One could use the name Moses used several times "Israel" in the Torah:
Deuteronomy Chapter 6:3-9

3 Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD, the God of thy fathers, hath promised unto thee--a land flowing with milk and honey.
4 Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God, the LORD is one.
5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be upon thy heart;
7 and thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thy house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thy hand, and they shall be for frontlets between thine eyes.
9 And thou shalt write them upon the door-posts of thy house, and upon thy gates.
Deuteronomy 6 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre
Please
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

"Jacobean descendants of Abraham

One could use the name Moses used several times "Israel" in the Torah:
Deuteronomy Chapter 6:3-9

3 Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD, the God of thy fathers, hath promised unto thee--a land flowing with milk and honey.
4 Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God, the LORD is one.
5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be upon thy heart;
7 and thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thy house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thy hand, and they shall be for frontlets between thine eyes.
9 And thou shalt write them upon the door-posts of thy house, and upon thy gates.
Deuteronomy 6 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre
Please
Regards

Israel is used in Torah to describe the identity of the Jewish people.
Why leave it? Please
Regards