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Why should one believe that something the TaNaKh predicts would actually literally occur?

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
Maybe some of us feel that bigger isn't always better when it comes to what gods we worship.

Never said bigger is better, I believe quite the opposite.

And the lack of manuscripts isn't so much for a lack of literacy as a propensity for later religious traditions to destroy that which was different from them.

You are assuming that modern religions destroy the older through brute force, they do not. Yes they destroy the older religions by aggressions but they also gain strength through appeal. For example Greece was ripe with monotheisms of various degrees being promoted by the philosophers and having man deities being reduced to henotheistic cults.

Polytheism existed out of a need to identify what was sacred to the culture. This formulated a heavy symbolism and allowed deities to have practical effects on the human mind. But there was always favoritism and the fact that not enough gods could be created to explain the world and its ever increasing obstacles.

I will be honest and say that ancient polytheism is outdated and the current polytheism of the Abrahamic faiths are more practical in their model. These same "monotheisms" take heavily after the top-down pantheons of the later era of ancient cultures.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
I chose to use the word "apparently" mostly because I don't believe God exists.

This is not about what you believe. "Apparently" means you are guessing.

For one who believes He does, indeed, exist, the word "apparently" could easily be removed. As in "[He] took stock of all the good and the bad that was and is to be - and then estimated that what has been created is 'good' in His eyes." A believer can't even deny that statement if they believe in the creation and an all-knowing God. That statement would be "the truth". I'm not exactly sure where your issue with the word "apparently" lies.

I just told you.

] I notice you mentioned "If a baby dies", but nothing about the suffering part. The issue doesn't sit with the individual dying - death by natural means is not an "evil" or injustice committed against a being. Creating a being for the sole purpose of it suffering for a time before that natural death however? Not sure how nice or "caring" that is.

God does not cause anyone to suffer. When Adam sinned, evil came into the world. Now all must live under the same conditions.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Never said bigger is better, I believe quite the opposite.



You are assuming that modern religions destroy the older through brute force, they do not. Yes they destroy the older religions by aggressions but they also gain strength through appeal. For example Greece was ripe with monotheisms of various degrees being promoted by the philosophers and having man deities being reduced to henotheistic cults.

Polytheism existed out of a need to identify what was sacred to the culture. This formulated a heavy symbolism and allowed deities to have practical effects on the human mind. But there was always favoritism and the fact that not enough gods could be created to explain the world and its ever increasing obstacles.

I will be honest and say that ancient polytheism is outdated and the current polytheism of the Abrahamic faiths are more practical in their model. These same "monotheisms" take heavily after the top-down pantheons of the later era of ancient cultures.
"For example Greece was ripe with monotheisms of various degrees being promoted by the philosophers"

I agree with what I have colored in magenta, above.
Belief in ONE-GOD, is a natural phenomenon and existed world-wide in the continents, and some of them if not many of them, got a Converse from ONE-GOD.
Monotheism - Wikipedia
Please
Regards
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Take a course in elementary reading comprehension. I did not say God kills babies.
My mistake: you only acknowledged that God stands by and does nothing as babies suffer and die:

A baby is born prematurely, suffers a great deal, and then dies. This exact thing has happened countless times throughout human existence. How can anyone claim that God is anything but indifferent to that child? How can it be claimed that he cares? His knowledge of all of man's future laid out before him would have included all of these suffering and dying babies - and yet the creation is "good". It seems to me more that His vast indifference is among God's chief attributes.

That is sill letting Adam cause operate. If a baby dies, it goest to heaven. How is that indifference? You are judging God by your standard of caring. I will stick with the Bible's description of God
Still: your implication is that it's good for babies to die and go to Heaven. IOW, if a baby will go to Heaven, it's good for him to die... right?
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
My mistake: you only acknowledged that God stands by and does nothing as babies suffer and die:




Still: your implication is that it's good for babies to die and go to Heaven. IOW, if a baby will go to Heaven, it's good for him to die... right?


No. It will cause a great deal of grief for the parents. It is good for the baby. It will never have a worry for the res of its life. If there is a heaven as describe in the Bible, would you not like to go there and never have any pain or sorrow, and be with someone who loves you unconditionally?

I have never met a non-believer who wanted to die. Thaa is their chance to live for ever in Paradise.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
God does not cause anyone to suffer. When Adam sinned, evil came into the world. Now all must live under the same conditions.

But only because God chose the punishment. It is not as if "suffering" is some immutable law of the universe. It was (supposedly) a choice God made for us. Adam couldn't have been expected to know what suffering was - nor could Eve - so it isn't as if they "chose" it. What they chose was disobedience. God chose the suffering. I mean, let's be honest with ourselves - He could have simply just spanked them instead. That could have been what He did - but it wasn't. He chose to make their progeny for the rest of time suffer.

I love how it is just okay with Christians that they are punished for the sins of their forebears. As if that sort of tyranny played out by a "leader" is okay. If the government told you that everyone was to inherit the debt of their parents when they passed on, would this be okay? What if, instead, life was setup such that you inherited any and all physical conditions and disease from your parents when they died? Would that be okay with you as long as God was the one who forced the issues upon you? Would you say "Thank you God, may I please have another?" and continue to worship?
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
But only because God chose the punishment. It is not as if "suffering" is some immutable law of the universe. It was (supposedly) a choice God made for us. Adam couldn't have been expected to know what suffering was - nor could Eve - so it isn't as if they "chose" it. What they chose was disobedience. God chose the suffering. I mean, let's be honest with ourselves - He could have simply just spanked them instead. That could have been what He did - but it wasn't. He chose to make their progeny for the rest of time suffer.

I love how it is just okay with Christians that they are punished for the sins of their forebears. As if that sort of tyranny played out by a "leader" is okay. If the government told you that everyone was to inherit the debt of their parents when they passed on, would this be okay? What if, instead, life was setup such that you inherited any and all physical conditions and disease from your parents when they died? Would that be okay with you as long as God was the one who forced the issues upon you? Would you say "Thank you God, may I please have another?" and continue to worship?


I just love it when skeptics criticize something they don't understand.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
I just love it when skeptics criticize something they don't understand.

The very reason I do not believe, summed up quite succinctly. I could never worship something I am unable to understand - regardless the threat of punishment - regardless the testimony of "witnesses" - regardless the number of unsubstantiated books written on the subject. Going the lengths of actual "worship", let alone just belief? Not going to happen.

You can be skeptical of my skepticism all you want, and comment that you think my behavior is fun to witness, and that you "love it". My beliefs do not come lightly - you can pretend that they do all you want. You can pretend that I care what you think of it. You can pretend that I'll suffer some dire fate for not believing as you do. You can pretend pretty much whatever you want to. Realities are the only thing that sway me. Not pretend.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
I did that. I found a mix of unsubstantiated claims and self-fulfilling prophecies. Do you have any in mind that are actually compelling?

Keep in mind that I'm not going to find a prophecy compelling unless it meets a few criteria:

For a statement to be Biblical foreknowledge, it must fit all of the five following criteria:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biblical_prophecies

And I'd add one more:

6. It can't be self-fulfilling. If the prophecy was "fulfilled" by a wilful act by people who knew about the prophecy, then it doesn't count as foreknowledge. Examples would be the foundation of modern Israel or the story about the donkey and the colt in the Gospels ("go get me a donkey and a colt so that I can fulfil the prophecy that says the Messiah will come into the city on a donkey and a colt.").

So... do you have any that pass the test?

There are prophecies, more than once in Tanakh, that state that the Jewish people will reject a great prophet, go into diaspora in many lands and return to their homeland in Israel.

WHILE THEY ARE IN MANY LANDS, IN EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THOSE LANDS THEY WILL BE THE CREAM, THE INTELLIGENTSIA, BLESSING THAT NATION, AND ALSO, IN EACH OF THOSE LANDS THEY WILL BE HATED, REJECTED AND PERSECUTED.

You can say all you like that we Jews will work hard to be educated, win Nobel prizes at a ratio of 48:1 (0.25% of the world, win 12% of the prizes) and etc. but if you say it was a self-fulfillment to be hated without a good reason (jealousy, perhaps?) and then persecuted, pogromed, expelled, raped and murdered in dozens of nations I will call you out as some kind of psychotic anti-Semite!

There is NO WAY Jews decided to self-fulfill Tanakh prophecies by being hated without any reason in 100 lands. NONE. The fact that we Jews since the diaspora have often said the Tanakh is man's word and not perhaps God's Word underscores how crazy, how sick, how insane it would be to say we self-fulfilled prophecy to be hated in 100 lands. Jews aren't motivated to self-fulfill prophecies they think are open to interpretation and perhaps not God's Word at all. Christians, however, noticed that the Jewish people fulfilled prophecy, again with little Jewish motivation to self-fulfill it.

The Bible is the Word of God.

It can't be self-fulfilling. If the prophecy was "fulfilled" by a wilful act by people who knew about the prophecy, then it doesn't count as foreknowledge. Examples would be the foundation of modern Israel or the story about the donkey and the colt in the Gospels ("go get me a donkey and a colt so that I can fulfil the prophecy that says the Messiah will come into the city on a donkey and a colt.

Unfortunately, Jesus self-fulfilled the prophecies regarding the Messiah's resurrection by rising from the dead, willfully, intentionally, forever. So we can eliminate THOSE prophecies . . . I can see how "rational" rationalist denials of prophecy are. :)

Once you come to measure, I mean, measure it with data analysis, how extraordinary it is for a people to remain culturally and ethnically distinct for two millennia and return to their homeland, you will not any longer say "a mix of unsubstantiated claims and self-fulfilling prophecies".
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Please quote the verses.
Regards[/QUOTE]

Gen 3:15 - I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, and you shall bruise him on the heel.

Ex 3:8 - I(God( have come down to deliver you from the power of the Egyptians, and to bring them up from the land to good and spacious , to a land flowing with milk and honey, the the place of the Canaanite, and the Hittite...a land

Lev 26:9 - So I(God) will turn toward you and make you fruitful and multiply you, and I will l confirm my covenant with you.

If you don't have a bible, if you will send me a private message with your address, I will send you one.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Please quote the verses.
Regards

Gen 3:15 - I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, and you shall bruise him on the heel.

Ex 3:8 - I(God( have come down to deliver you from the power of the Egyptians, and to bring them up from the land to good and spacious , to a land flowing with milk and honey, the the place of the Canaanite, and the Hittite...a land

Lev 26:9 - So I(God) will turn toward you and make you fruitful and multiply you, and I will l confirm my covenant with you.

If you don't have a bible, if you will send me a private message with your address, I will send you one.[/QUOTE]

One did not mention the prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:15 now though its reference was given in one's earlier post #57 :

Deuteronomy 18:15
15 A prophet will the LORD thy God raise up unto thee, from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
Deuteronomy 18 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre

It has been fulfilled with the advent of Muhammad in a very glorious way. Please
Regards
 
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omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Gen 3:15 - I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, and you shall bruise him on the heel.

Ex 3:8 - I(God( have come down to deliver you from the power of the Egyptians, and to bring them up from the land to good and spacious , to a land flowing with milk and honey, the the place of the Canaanite, and the Hittite...a land

Lev 26:9 - So I(God) will turn toward you and make you fruitful and multiply you, and I will l confirm my covenant with you.

If you don't have a bible, if you will send me a private message with your address, I will send you one.

One did not mention the prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:15 now though its reference was given in one's earlier post #57 :

Deuteronomy 18:15
15 A prophet will the LORD thy God raise up unto thee, from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
Deuteronomy 18 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre

It has been fulfilled with the advent of Muhammad in a very glorious way. Please
Regards[/QUOTE]

I wasn't about to list ever prophecy that has been fulfilled.

The verse you quoted can't point to Muhammad. He was not brethren to the Jews.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Gen 3:15 - I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, and you shall bruise him on the heel.

Ex 3:8 - I(God( have come down to deliver you from the power of the Egyptians, and to bring them up from the land to good and spacious , to a land flowing with milk and honey, the the place of the Canaanite, and the Hittite...a land

Lev 26:9 - So I(God) will turn toward you and make you fruitful and multiply you, and I will l confirm my covenant with you.

If you don't have a bible, if you will send me a private message with your address, I will send you one.

One did not mention the prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:15 now though its reference was given in one's earlier post #57 :

Deuteronomy 18:15
15 A prophet will the LORD thy God raise up unto thee, from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
Deuteronomy 18 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre

It has been fulfilled with the advent of Muhammad in a very glorious way. Please
[/QUOTE]

I wasn't about to list ever prophecy that has been fulfilled.
The verse you quoted can't point to Muhammad. He was not brethren to the Jews.
Then in whom this prophecy has been fulfilled. Please
Regards
 

Kirran

Premium Member
The Jews took line of birth from their fathers:
"in the Bible the line always followed the father, including the cases of Joseph and Moses, who married into non-Israelite priestly families."[10]
Who is a Jew? - Wikipedia
Jesus had no father so he was nobody's brother. The prophecy is therefore not fulfilled in Jesus but in Muhammad. Please
Regards

Doesn't say they took their status as Jews from their fathers.

You can have a brother without having a father.

Muhammad wasn't a Jew.
 
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