Why Partisans Look At The Same Evidence On Ukraine And See Wildly Different Things

[sun rise]

I suspect most of us will react to reading this in a couple of ways. Some, such as me, will react by thinking "yes, it's a bit true about me but THEY are much much worse". Another way is "I'm really ok but they do this all the time."

Why Partisans Look At The Same Evidence On Ukraine And See Wildly Different Things

This is not true only for the US but much more generally which is why I put the thread up a level.

“People who are strong partisans will tend to have the blinkers on,” said Elisabeth Gidengil, professor of political science at McGill University in Canada. “They’ll try to discount what’s happening and say it’s not that serious. All the parties do this.” And she does mean all. Gidengil has found evidence of this effect in Canadian politics. Anduiza has seen it in Spain. Vivyan in the U.K. If it’s happening in multiple countries to many different political parties, you might be forced to accept that it’s also something you and your fellow partisans might be doing right here in the good old US of A.

 

[Nakosis]

I suspect most of us will react to reading this in a couple of ways. Some, such as me, will react by thinking "yes, it's a bit true about me but THEY are much much worse". Another way is "I'm really ok but they do this all the time."

Why Partisans Look At The Same Evidence On Ukraine And See Wildly Different Things

This is not true only for the US but much more generally which is why I put the thread up a level.

“People who are strong partisans will tend to have the blinkers on,” said Elisabeth Gidengil, professor of political science at McGill University in Canada. “They’ll try to discount what’s happening and say it’s not that serious. All the parties do this.” And she does mean all. Gidengil has found evidence of this effect in Canadian politics. Anduiza has seen it in Spain. Vivyan in the U.K. If it’s happening in multiple countries to many different political parties, you might be forced to accept that it’s also something you and your fellow partisans might be doing right here in the good old US of A.

Different morality I think. Actions that one person might find acceptable, under certain circumstances, someone else may not.

So one person, "Oh my God, how could he get away with that!" Won't even register as a Meh.. to someone else.

That's why we have laws and a court system to effect some kind of standard.

 

[leov]

I suspect most of us will react to reading this in a couple of ways. Some, such as me, will react by thinking "yes, it's a bit true about me but THEY are much much worse". Another way is "I'm really ok but they do this all the time."

Why Partisans Look At The Same Evidence On Ukraine And See Wildly Different Things

This is not true only for the US but much more generally which is why I put the thread up a level.

“People who are strong partisans will tend to have the blinkers on,” said Elisabeth Gidengil, professor of political science at McGill University in Canada. “They’ll try to discount what’s happening and say it’s not that serious. All the parties do this.” And she does mean all. Gidengil has found evidence of this effect in Canadian politics. Anduiza has seen it in Spain. Vivyan in the U.K. If it’s happening in multiple countries to many different political parties, you might be forced to accept that it’s also something you and your fellow partisans might be doing right here in the good old US of A.

Ukraine. Both sides lie that is why they can twist this issue anyway they want.

 

[metis]

According to federal law, any attempt to solicit foreign intervention in our electioneering system is illegal and is not dependent on what the response of those in another country may or may not do. It's like giving a secret note to a bank teller demanding cash or else, it's that action, not what the bank teller may or may not do, that's the crime.

To put it simply, Trump clearly broke federal law, which is why even some Pubs are upset.

 

[Augustus]

Different morality I think. Actions that one person might find acceptable, under certain circumstances, someone else may not.

Not really. Were the boot on the other foot and the President was a Dem, most partisan Dems would be 'nothing to see here, move along', and Pubs would be citing it as treasonous depravity and evidence the Dems are uniquely evil.

 

[Revoltingest]

Different morality I think. Actions that one person might find acceptable, under certain circumstances, someone else may not.

So one person, "Oh my God, how could he get away with that!" Won't even register as a Meh.. to someone else.

That's why we have laws and a court system to effect some kind of standard.

Morality is greatly affected by which side is doing what.

 

[Revoltingest]

Not really. Were the boot on the other foot and the President was a Dem, most partisan Dems would be 'nothing to see here, move along', and Pubs would be citing it as treasonous depravity and evidence the Dems are uniquely evil.

Aye, tis similar to Trump's vs Bill Clinton's womanizing.
Or "Lock her up!" vs "Lock him up!".
So many examples.

 

[leov]

Not really. Were the boot on the other foot and the President was a Dem, most partisan Dems would be 'nothing to see here, move along', and Pubs would be citing it as treasonous depravity and evidence the Dems are uniquely evil.

Both types of neocons took part in creating Ukrainian crisis and nobody will speak about the roots, taboo.

 

[Nakosis]

Morality is greatly affected by which side is doing what.

You mean like if my "side' is getting some extra benefit out of the shenanigans.

How could that be? Isn't equality the foremost important aspect of anyone's morals?!!!

 

[leov]

Morality is greatly affected by which side is doing what.

Casualties of the Ukrainian crisis - Wikipedia

 

[Revoltingest]

You mean like if my "side' is getting some extra benefit out of the shenanigans.

How could that be? Isn't equality the foremost important aspect of anyone's morals?!!!

Equality?
What have you been smoking!

 

[Nakosis]

Equality?
What have you been smoking!

Hey, California... It's totally legal man.

 

[Jose Fly]

I suspect most of us will react to reading this in a couple of ways. Some, such as me, will react by thinking "yes, it's a bit true about me but THEY are much much worse". Another way is "I'm really ok but they do this all the time."

Why Partisans Look At The Same Evidence On Ukraine And See Wildly Different Things

This is not true only for the US but much more generally which is why I put the thread up a level.

“People who are strong partisans will tend to have the blinkers on,” said Elisabeth Gidengil, professor of political science at McGill University in Canada. “They’ll try to discount what’s happening and say it’s not that serious. All the parties do this.” And she does mean all. Gidengil has found evidence of this effect in Canadian politics. Anduiza has seen it in Spain. Vivyan in the U.K. If it’s happening in multiple countries to many different political parties, you might be forced to accept that it’s also something you and your fellow partisans might be doing right here in the good old US of A.

While I agree that partisanship definitely can influence how people process and interpret stories and issues, I didn't see anything in that article specific to the Ukraine scandal. From what I can tell, pretty much every right-wing talking point on this is either wrong, deliberately misleading, or just plain made-up. While on the liberal side, I don't see anything equivalent.

So yeah, partisanship can cloud some people's thinking....but that doesn't mean that's the case with everyone on every issue. To think it does is just lazy.

 

[Augustus]

While I agree that partisanship definitely can influence how people process and interpret stories and issues, I didn't see anything in that article specific to the Ukraine scandal. From what I can tell, pretty much every right-wing talking point on this is either wrong, deliberately misleading, or just plain made-up. While on the liberal side, I don't see anything equivalent.

Were the situation reversed and Fox News was howling for blood the Dems would be finding the same excuses. It's not like they'd just say "it's a fair cop, Hannity's right on this one. Best start the impeachment quick smart".

So yeah, partisanship can cloud some people's thinking....but that doesn't mean that's the case with everyone on every issue. To think it does is just lazy.

Just most people on most issues...

 

[Jose Fly]

Were the situation reversed and Fox News was howling for blood the Dems would be finding the same excuses. It's not like they'd just say "it's a fair cop, Hannity's right on this one. Best start the impeachment quick smart".

Just most people on most issues...

That's exactly the sort of lazy thinking I was talking about.

 

[Augustus]

That's exactly the sort of lazy thinking I was talking about.

You actually believe if the situation was reversed most Dems would have agreed with Hannity and called for Obama/Hillary/Biden be impeached for asking for Trump to be investigated

You don't seem to understand either US partisan politics or humans in general very well. Bless.

 

[metis]

The "smoking gun" was again made obvious yesterday when Trump repeated that he was asking both the Ukraine and the Chinese to investigate the Biden's, which is in violation of federal law regardless of whether the Ukrainians did anything. Also, documents released last night show that Giuliani and some others in Trump's staff were compliant in pressuring the president of the Ukraine to get involved in investigating the Biden's.

Either we are a "nation of laws" or we aren't, so partisan politics should not come into play. I felt that Bill Clinton and Al Franken should have resigned, and the latter did.

 

[Jose Fly]

You actually believe if the situation was reversed most Dems would have agreed with Hannity and called for Obama/Hillary/Biden be impeached for asking for Trump to be investigated

You don't seem to understand either US partisan politics or humans in general very well. Bless.

I have never seen anything from Dems that's the equivalent of what's going on now. We actually have conservatives arguing that when one person says "I'd like to buy this from you" and the other person says "I need a favor though", there's absolutely no connection at all between the purchase and the favor, and only people who hate the second person would ever see it that way.

That's so fundamentally disconnected from reality, there really isn't much else to say.

 

[Augustus]

I have never seen anything from Dems that's the equivalent of what's going on now. We actually have conservatives arguing that when one person says "I'd like to buy this from you" and the other person says "I need a favor though", there's absolutely no connection at all between the purchase and the favor, and only people who hate the second person would ever see it that way.

That's so fundamentally disconnected from reality, there really isn't much else to say.

Excusing Bill Clinton's alleged sexual assaults, but not Trump's?

When people are deeply emotionally committed to a zero-sum partisan cause, particularly when they have made a public commitment to the cause they will almost never admit error and will shape reality to support their view.

Studies have shown people can even literally lose the ability to process information that shows they are wrong, and also that people who score higher on scientific understanding and reasoning ability are less likely to change their minds than the average person (because they are better at creating reasons why they are still).

Do you *actually* believe that in an alternate world with the exact same situation reversed and Obama facing impeachment for asking Ukraine to investigate Donald Trump Jr that Dems would simply say "it's a fair cop, he's guilty". That if Trump was grandstanding on Hannity about birtherism and Obama's elitist arrogance, and insufferable Republicans were crowing on social media about how Dems were always evil and corrupt the average, highly partisan Dem would look at the situation from a position of detached objectivity rather trying to 'win' by any means necessary?

 

[Jose Fly]

Excusing Bill Clinton's alleged sexual assaults, but not Trump's?

You're conflating two different things. I never said there was absolutely no hypocrisy among liberals (to be clear, there is and there always will be hypocrisy in politics). Rather, my point was about the wide-ranging disconnect from reality that conservatives have been undergoing for some time now, and the positively crazy version of reality they're living in.

Go back to my original post that started this line of discussion and you'll see that I was specifically talking about the Ukraine scandal.

Understand? Hypocrisy and delusion are two different things.

When people are deeply emotionally committed to a zero-sum partisan cause, particularly when they have made a public commitment to the cause they will almost never admit error and will shape reality to support their view.

Studies have shown people can even literally lose the ability to process information that shows they are wrong, and also that people who score higher on scientific understanding and reasoning ability are less likely to change their minds than the average person (because they are better at creating reasons why they are still).

I agree. But to blindly apply that to every political scandal and issue, and use it as an excuse to simply say "well, both sides do it, so I'm done here" is extremely lazy. Sometimes one side of an issue really is right.

Do you *actually* believe that in an alternate world with the exact same situation reversed and Obama facing impeachment for asking Ukraine to investigate Donald Trump Jr that Dems would simply say "it's a fair cop, he's guilty".

I would hope so. Actually, I would hope Obama would know better than to use the power of his office to shake down a foreign leader to help himself get reelected.

I mean, we can argue over hypothetical, imaginary scenarios all day and it won't get us anywhere. The reality before us right now is that President Trump did do those things and it's up to all of us to hold him accountable.

That if Trump was grandstanding on Hannity about birtherism and Obama's elitist arrogance, and insufferable Republicans were crowing on social media about how Dems were always evil and corrupt the average, highly partisan Dem would look at the situation from a position of detached objectivity rather trying to 'win' by any means necessary?

????????? That's pretty much what happened. Trump's political career was launched with his advocacy of birtherism.