Why or/and how does a language become sacred, or almost "God's language"??

[Aupmanyav]

I am actually not speaking about the power of prayer. In fact, I have no belief in the power of prayer. I am agnostic in that arena. But you could be right.

My question is, how did a language develop to such a divine status in some religions? How did it develop like that? I think @Aupmanyav has given a good analysis in a simple format. Interesting.

Same here. Atheists like me do not say prayers, Especially when one is an 'advaitist' (believer in 'non-duality'). So, whom to pray?
Bulle Shah of Kasur said 'Awwal aakhir aapnu jaana, naa koi dooja hor pichhaanaa' (I have understood, I am the beginning and I am the end, never accepted any one else).
(Syed Abdullah Shah Qadri, 1680–1757)

 

[Clara Tea]

In this discussion what I mean by sacred is in the most basic terms where it is used as a language that is understood by God. There are some languages used by some religions where chanting or making supplications in that particular language has either become a ritual or almost a language that is divine where God listens to you when you use that language.

E.g.

In Buddhism, at least in some of the countries people chant in the Pali language. Like Namo Thassa, Bhagavatho, Arahatho, Samma, Sambuddhassa.

In Islam, predominantly people recite Arabic chants like sentences in mosques and at home though they do acknowledge that praying in any language is fine and God understands everything. But there is a sense of divinity in the arabic language.

In the Catholic Church they say In nomine patris et feeliet spirithus Sankthus. I understand worldwide one could do their prayer in their own language, but why hold on to a language like this?

What do you have to say?

Opinion of Clara Tea:

When Moses went to the mountain to get the 10 Commandments from God, his band of Jews made a "golden calf" idol. God commanded that they do not worship this graven image (idolatry) because they would start to worship the object, and they must not worship anything other than God.

Apparently a graven image doesn't have to be a solid object. Rather, the worship of words is exactly the same thing.as the worship of a golden calf. When the words become sacred, people worship them.

"Star Trek" The Omega Glory (TV Episode 1968) - William Shatner as Capt. Kirk - IMDb

On Star Trek (Original series, season 2, episode 34, The Omega Glory: We the People--website above), they showed how a primative tribe could worship words and lose their meaning. The aliens brought out an American flag, and said "Ay plegli ianectu flaggen, tupep like for stahn. . . ," which means "I pledge alliegence to the flag, one nation under God...."

This is very similar to first grade children pledging to the flag. They get the wrong words, and they don't understand what they are saying, but they go through a ceremony and somewhere in the back of their minds that ceremony means something about patriotism (but they don't know what).

King James I of Great Britain (who had been King James VII of Scotland, as well) created the King James Version of the bible. It was the first english language version. Prior to that, the bible had been in Latin (primarily), and only those well versed in Latin could read it. Thus priests had a lock on the religion. If someone had wanted to know God's words, they had to go to a priest to find out. This new translation (often highly regarded as the first English translation, therefore likely to be the most accurate) became the standard around the world. There had been other English translations prior to KJV, but not well accepted because they didn't have the king backing them.

King James I, by the way, had inherited the kingdom after the heirs of King Henry VIII died, then the kingdom passed to his sister, Margaret Tudor, who had been, when she was alive, married to King James V of Scotland. James V, by this time, had died. Their son, King James VI of Scotland had been killed, but James VII was still alive (so inherited the kingdom of Great Britain). Some had shunned a Scot king on the British throne, but they had no choice but to accept his leadership and the dynasty of Scot/English kings who followed. This also expanded the extent of Great Britain by including Scotland. Brits also resented the Scot kings, because, while drunk, drove the economy into ruin. James I's heir, Charles I, was publicly beheaded by Parliament having insisted that Parliament was merely the king's advisor. His son, Charles II, was forced by an angry mob to sign the Great Petition, which made the Exclusionary Act (in the wake of numerous civil wars...the Poppish Plot, the Ryehouse Rebellion, etc). That Exclusionary Act was meant to end they tyrrany that ensued with each monarch murdering priests (protestant or Catholic) by preventing a Catholic from sitting on the British throne. Bloody Mary (dau of Henry VIII) chopped the heads of 150 Protestant priests who had adhered to Henry VIII's Anglican religion, so refused to change their robes. Highly religious, as the daughter of Queen Catherine of Aragon of Spain (and therefore highly Catholic), she felt that Henry VIII had destroyed the true religion. Though Charles II had signed the Exclusionary Act (excluding a Catholic from the throne, to end the bloody conflict between religions), when he died he had willed the throne to his Protestant (Anglican) brother, James II. This aimed yet two more civil wars at Britain (the Monmouth Rebellion, to put the Protestant illegitimate son (James Scott) of Charles II in power...the Duke of Monmouth was drawn and quartered, dipped in tar, and hung in the public squares of 4 separate towns to make sure that his immortal soul would not escape his corpse nor be sanctified by any one priest, thus denying him heaven for all eternity) (then the Glorious Rebellion, because Great Britain, at that time, also owned France, including a small Kingdom of Orange in the south of France, which King James II had refused to give back to his son in law (married to his daughter Mary), so William of Orange had a successful rebellion, driving his father-in-law, James II, into exile, and took the British empire. That short-lived rule ended with the death of William and Mary, and accession of James II's other daughter, Queen Anne, who had ordered exile for the various rebels who had displaced her father.

All this drama and bloodshed over religion, all in the name of Christ.

 

[RabbiO]

@Clara Tea -

The KJV - whatever one thinks of it - was not the first English translation of the Bible.

 

[firedragon]

Languages in South India also are heavily influenced by Sanskrit. Tamils are some exception due to political reasons. Government has declared Kannada, Malayalam, Odia, Sanskrit, Tamil and Telugu, as 'classical languages'.
You understand correctly. In time - deities, rituals and language of the victors became secondary though they were not lost. Indra is an example.

I think someone told me there were something like 900 languages in India. Somehow, you are so right. I dont know how but Tamil does have some similarity to Sanskrit. Maybe the other languages you mentioned also does.

You see Aup. What an interesting topic is this, though I am clueless about it. Thanks.

 

[firedragon]

Same here. Atheists like me do not say prayers, Especially when one is an 'advaitist' (believer in 'non-duality'). So, whom to pray?
Bulle Shah of Kasur said 'Awwal aakhir aapnu jaana, naa koi dooja hor pichhaanaa' (I have understood, I am the beginning and I am the end, never accepted any one else).
(Syed Abdullah Shah Qadri, 1680–1757)

What is that language? There are some words similar to arabic. So fascinating.

 

[pearl]

Prior to that, the bible had been in Latin (primarily), and only those well versed in Latin could read it.

Before Latin wasn't the language of the people Greek?, as was the Bible? The Church translated the Bible from Greek to Latin as did the language of the common people.
What Is the Vulgate? The Beginner's Guide - OverviewBible

 

[firedragon]

Opinion of Clara Tea:

When Moses went to the mountain to get the 10 Commandments from God, his band of Jews made a "golden calf" idol. God commanded that they do not worship this graven image (idolatry) because they would start to worship the object, and they must not worship anything other than God.

Apparently a graven image doesn't have to be a solid object. Rather, the worship of words is exactly the same thing.as the worship of a golden calf. When the words become sacred, people worship them.

"Star Trek" The Omega Glory (TV Episode 1968) - William Shatner as Capt. Kirk - IMDb

On Star Trek (Original series, season 2, episode 34, The Omega Glory: We the People--website above), they showed how a primative tribe could worship words and lose their meaning. The aliens brought out an American flag, and said "Ay plegli ianectu flaggen, tupep like for stahn. . . ," which means "I pledge alliegence to the flag, one nation under God...."

This is very similar to first grade children pledging to the flag. They get the wrong words, and they don't understand what they are saying, but they go through a ceremony and somewhere in the back of their minds that ceremony means something about patriotism (but they don't know what).

King James I of Great Britain (who had been King James VII of Scotland, as well) created the King James Version of the bible. It was the first english language version. Prior to that, the bible had been in Latin (primarily), and only those well versed in Latin could read it. Thus priests had a lock on the religion. If someone had wanted to know God's words, they had to go to a priest to find out. This new translation (often highly regarded as the first English translation, therefore likely to be the most accurate) became the standard around the world. There had been other English translations prior to KJV, but not well accepted because they didn't have the king backing them.

King James I, by the way, had inherited the kingdom after the heirs of King Henry VIII died, then the kingdom passed to his sister, Margaret Tudor, who had been, when she was alive, married to King James V of Scotland. James V, by this time, had died. Their son, King James VI of Scotland had been killed, but James VII was still alive (so inherited the kingdom of Great Britain). Some had shunned a Scot king on the British throne, but they had no choice but to accept his leadership and the dynasty of Scot/English kings who followed. This also expanded the extent of Great Britain by including Scotland. Brits also resented the Scot kings, because, while drunk, drove the economy into ruin. James I's heir, Charles I, was publicly beheaded by Parliament having insisted that Parliament was merely the king's advisor. His son, Charles II, was forced by an angry mob to sign the Great Petition, which made the Exclusionary Act (in the wake of numerous civil wars...the Poppish Plot, the Ryehouse Rebellion, etc). That Exclusionary Act was meant to end they tyrrany that ensued with each monarch murdering priests (protestant or Catholic) by preventing a Catholic from sitting on the British throne. Bloody Mary (dau of Henry VIII) chopped the heads of 150 Protestant priests who had adhered to Henry VIII's Anglican religion, so refused to change their robes. Highly religious, as the daughter of Queen Catherine of Aragon of Spain (and therefore highly Catholic), she felt that Henry VIII had destroyed the true religion. Though Charles II had signed the Exclusionary Act (excluding a Catholic from the throne, to end the bloody conflict between religions), when he died he had willed the throne to his Protestant (Anglican) brother, James II. This aimed yet two more civil wars at Britain (the Monmouth Rebellion, to put the Protestant illegitimate son (James Scott) of Charles II in power...the Duke of Monmouth was drawn and quartered, dipped in tar, and hung in the public squares of 4 separate towns to make sure that his immortal soul would not escape his corpse nor be sanctified by any one priest, thus denying him heaven for all eternity) (then the Glorious Rebellion, because Great Britain, at that time, also owned France, including a small Kingdom of Orange in the south of France, which King James II had refused to give back to his son in law (married to his daughter Mary), so William of Orange had a successful rebellion, driving his father-in-law, James II, into exile, and took the British empire. That short-lived rule ended with the death of William and Mary, and accession of James II's other daughter, Queen Anne, who had ordered exile for the various rebels who had displaced her father.

All this drama and bloodshed over religion, all in the name of Christ.

I really cannot understand the relevance of any of this.

And you should know, KJV was NOT the first translation. I dont know why so many Christians have this kind of understanding. So many.

This one, is absolutely absurd. But I appreciate your effort.

 

[Aupmanyav]

You see Aup. What an interesting topic is this, though I am clueless about it. Thanks.

The latest is this:
"2011 Census
According to the most recent census of 2011, after thorough linguistic scrutiny, edit, and rationalization on 19,569 raw linguistic affiliations, the census recognizes 1369 rationalized mother tongues and 1474 names which were treated as ‘unclassified’ and relegated to ‘other’ mother tongue category. Among, the 1369 rationalized mother tongues which are spoken by 10,000 or more speakers, are further grouped into appropriate set that resulted into total 121 languages. In these 121 languages, 22 are already part of the Eighth Schedule to the Constitution of India and the other 99 are termed as "Total of other languages" which is one short as of the other languages recognized in 2001 census."
Languages of India - Wikipedia
31 of the other languages have more than one million speakers, 29 have more than one hundred thousand speakers.
List of languages by number of native speakers in India - Wikipedia,
List of languages by number of native speakers in India - Wikipedia
Also, List of endangered languages in India - Wikipedia

 

[Aupmanyav]

What is that language? There are some words similar to arabic. So fascinating.

This is Punjabi, which has Persian and Arabic words.
Awwal: first, Aakhir: last, Aapnu: myself, Jaana: to know, Naa: did not, Koi: any, Dooja: second, Hor: other, Pichhana: recognize.
Awwal aakhir aapnu jaana, naa koi dooja hor pichhaanaa - that makes it:
I have understood, I am the beginning and I am the end, never recognized any one else.

Listen as it is sung by Rabbi Shergill*:
A Sikh. Poems of Bulle Shah make a part of the Sikh scripture, Adi Granth (First/original Book).

 

[firedragon]

The latest is this:
"2011 Census
According to the most recent census of 2011, after thorough linguistic scrutiny, edit, and rationalization on 19,569 raw linguistic affiliations, the census recognizes 1369 rationalized mother tongues and 1474 names which were treated as ‘unclassified’ and relegated to ‘other’ mother tongue category. Among, the 1369 rationalized mother tongues which are spoken by 10,000 or more speakers, are further grouped into appropriate set that resulted into total 121 languages. In these 121 languages, 22 are already part of the Eighth Schedule to the Constitution of India and the other 99 are termed as "Total of other languages" which is one short as of the other languages recognized in 2001 census."
Languages of India - Wikipedia
31 of the other languages have more than one million speakers, 29 have more than one hundred thousand speakers.
List of languages by number of native speakers in India - Wikipedia,
List of languages by number of native speakers in India - Wikipedia
Also, List of endangered languages in India - Wikipedia

Wohow. Fascinating isn't it?

India is such a huge country. I have not been there in many many years. Unbelievable there are so many languages there. What I have seen there is that Indians value their heritage a lot. I think that is the reason all of these languages still exist. But I cant say for sure, its just my opinion. They value their parents, their grandparents, and their languages so much, very much unlike other countries around the world. I think that kind of influence is good for the world.

Anyway, what I am saying is completely irrelevant.

 

[firedragon]

This is Punjabi, which may have Persian and Arabic words.
Awwal: first, Aakhir: last, Aapnu: myself, Jaana: to know, Naa: did not, Koi: any, Dooja: second, Hor: other, Pichhana: recognize.
Awwal aakhir aapnu jaana, naa koi dooja hor pichhaanaa - that makes it:

Oh I see. Punjabi? This is unbelievable. Really. But I can recognise many words that have some inkling to Sanskrit. Like Aapnu, Jaana, Koi, Dhoo or Dhooja, Awwal and Aakhir are direct arabic. I mean absolutely. It is not related to Sanskrit I think. Well, it doesn't seem like it.

See how much there is to learn in this world!!!! How fascinating.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Anyway, what I am saying is completely irrelevant.

However, Firedragon, thanks for your kind words. India, sure, is a huge country (perhaps we have the largest population in the world now. 1405 million, if you go by World-o-meter. Many people don't believe Chinese statistics), and with a mind-boggling diversity, like a kaleidoscope.
We still have tribes which hardly have had contact with the outside world. It is illegal to contact them. If contacted, they may not survive.
Hindi, Punjabi and Urdu have a huge component of Sanskrit. All verbs in Urdu are from Sanskrit. After all, Urdu had its birth in India.

The Sentinelese.

 

[firedragon]

However, Firedragon, thanks for your kind words. India, sure, is a huge country (perhaps we have the largest population in the world now. 1405 million, if you go by World-o-meter. Many people don't believe Chinese statistics), and so very varied, like a kaleidoscope.
Hindi, Punjabi and Urdu have a huge component of Sanskrit. All verbs in Urdu are from Sanskrit. After all, Urdu had its birth in India.

I dont know the difference between Urdu and Hindi. But many say there are big differences. I just cant see it. The problem is, I am ignorant. I have not heard Punjabi much and if I did, I might not know it is what it is. But I do see many similarities with Sanskrit in Hindi and Urdu. But I am speaking very superficially without any knowledge.

Is it 1.4 billion now. Wow. Well, you maybe right. China is a closed country while India has stats openly. Man. India is a crazy diverse country. One really has to travel there to truly see. I have never in my life seen another country where like in Goa, you walk into a building that looks like someones house, someone tells you to take the stairs and go to the next floor, you open a door, and there are 100s of young people listening to an alternative type of band singing some 90's songs that kills your mind. And its so different to Madras. There is no point. This rhetoric could go on forever.

The thing with me is I would like to learn languages in depth. But for languages like Hindi or Urdu, I think I will just learn to speak. Soon soon. I shall put that as a project plan.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Talking of Hindi and Urdu, if you learn one, you have nearly learnt the other also. The largest commonly spoken language in India is Hindustani - Hindi/Urdu mix.

 

[QuestioningMind]

I dont understand your post QM.

It's the answer to the question posed in this thread's title.

 

[firedragon]

It's the answer to the question posed in this thread's title.

Maybe you have a great point. But I just didnt understand it. It could be my deficiency.

 

[firedragon]

Talking of Hindi and Urdu, if you learn one, you have nearly learnt the other also. The largest commonly spoken language in India is Hindustani - Hindi/Urdu mix.

Well. I am going to make a plan to learn the language. And if I trouble you for some information you cannot get agitated. Its a law in India that when someone has questions about an Indian language, you cannot stop helping. It was stipulated in the 20th century. And I am joking.

Cheers.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

In this discussion what I mean by sacred is in the most basic terms where it is used as a language that is understood by God. There are some languages used by some religions where chanting or making supplications in that particular language has either become a ritual or almost a language that is divine where God listens to you when you use that language.

E.g.

In Buddhism, at least in some of the countries people chant in the Pali language. Like Namo Thassa, Bhagavatho, Arahatho, Samma, Sambuddhassa.

In Islam, predominantly people recite Arabic chants like sentences in mosques and at home though they do acknowledge that praying in any language is fine and God understands everything. But there is a sense of divinity in the arabic language.

In the Catholic Church they say In nomine patris et feeliet spirithus Sankthus. I understand worldwide one could do their prayer in their own language, but why hold on to a language like this?

What do you have to say?

In the case of Judaism, we simply acknowledge that any translation of the original tongue of the Torah, Hebrew, will be inferior. For us, only the Hebrew manuscript is authoritative.

Some Jews, but not all, believe that Hebrew was the first language, that indeed it is the language spoken by the Angels. I don't ascribe to that.

 

[firedragon]

In the case of Judaism, we simply acknowledge that any translation of the original tongue of the Torah, Hebrew, will be inferior. For us, only the Hebrew manuscript is authoritative.

Yes I understand that.

Some Jews, but not all, believe that Hebrew was the first language, that indeed it is the language spoken by the Angels. I don't ascribe to that.

I have heard of this from a guy. But the majority does not hold to this belief right? Please correct me if I am wrong.

I have a question. In Judaism, is it a general view that prayers are better made in Hebrew? Like the recitations?

Ill give you an example. In Islam it is generally understood that anyone can pray in any language. But, recitation of the arabic text is highly valued. Some would recite a ritualistic prayer in Arabic, like a key to a door and then they might make a prayer in English. This is generally practiced all over the world.

Is it similar in Judaism?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yes I understand that.



I have heard of this from a guy. But the majority does not hold to this belief right? Please correct me if I am wrong.

I have a question. In Judaism, is it a general view that prayers are better made in Hebrew? Like the recitations?

Ill give you an example. In Islam it is generally understood that anyone can pray in any language. But, recitation of the arabic text is highly valued. Some would recite a ritualistic prayer in Arabic, like a key to a door and then they might make a prayer in English. This is generally practiced all over the world.

Is it similar in Judaism?

Yes you are correct, the view that Hebrew is the language of angels is held by a minority of Jews.

The way I was taught, praying in Hebrew was supposed to be superior although the reasons for that are different depending on what group of Jews. Personally, I don't think that God cares what language we talk to him in, so long we just talk to him. But I think having our common prayers shared in Hebrew is one of the things that holds the People of Israel together as a group.