Why Jews must have believed Jesus to be their Messiah?

[nPeace]

So, if the Jews saw miracles of Jesus, why they didnt believe Him?
Could God give power to false prophets to do miracles?

Recall the account in the book of Acts, shows that there were practices of divination (Acts 16:16), and even when Jesus walked the earth (Matthew 7:22, 23; 9:32-34; 13:54; Mark 6:14, 15).
The Jews were very familiar with these works.

Jesus' works were more powerful, and went beyond what diviners practiced (i.e. opening the eyes of the know blind; restoring withered hands; healing paralyzed; raising the dead). Similar to when Moses went beyond the magic arts of Pharaoh's priests.

Since practicing these arts was common, it was not something, everyone living at that time would have concluded without a doubt, to be proof of a Godsend.
Those who put all the facts together - Messiah arriving on time, born in the right place, speaking like no other, spearheading a ministry, taking up from where John the Baptist left of, and taught as much,etc., etc.
That's why Jesus said things such as are found in these verses...
(Matthew 11:15) Let the one who has ears listen.
(Matthew 13:15) For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes, so that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and get the sense of it with their hearts and turn back and I heal them.’
(John 9:39-41)
39 Jesus then said: “For this judgment I came into this world, that those not seeing might see and those seeing might become blind.” 40 Those of the Pharisees who were with him heard these things, and they said to him: “We are not blind also, are we?” 41 Jesus said to them: “If you were blind, you would have no sin. But now you say, ‘We see.’ Your sin remains.”

It was not just about seeing with physical eyes. Atheist do that. It was about seeing with a heart of discernment, wisdom and understanding.
His true followers had all of that.

 

[nPeace]

Could God give power to false prophets to do miracles?

Keeping in line with the command, not to go beyond the things written (1 Corinthians 4:6)... There is nowhere in scripture where God ever gave power to false prophets to do miracles.
So to say he could would not be based on scripture, but would be a human idea.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Yes.

They may very well have been true miracles. But miracles don't prove someone is right nor that someone is a prophet:
"And if thou say in thy heart: 'How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?' When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken; the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously, thou shalt not be afraid of him." (Deut.18:21-22)

So, now, I am just curious, according to Jewish Bible, what did Moses do to prove to people of His time that He was really prophet of God, conversing back and forth with God, and having commandments from God. I mean, whatever Moses did, perhaps if Jesus was also a true Prophet would have done, or similar things, to be fair.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Keeping in line with the command, not to go beyond the things written (1 Corinthians 4:6)... There is nowhere in scripture where God ever gave power to false prophets to do miracles.
So to say he could would not be based on scripture, but would be a human idea.

I remember there a verse though in Jewish Bible, saying God can allow a false prophet to show a miracle, to test your heart. Would that count?

 

[nPeace]

I remember there a verse though in Jewish Bible, saying God can allow a false prophet to show a miracle, to test your heart. Would that count?

Jewish Bible?
I would have to compare what it says with Hebrew manuscripts, and see if there are differences.
I won't just consider it, the true text, because it's a Jewish Bible, but you can show me.

When you asked the question though, which answer would you go with, if there is a conflict between the Jewish Bible, and what is in the Septuagint?

 

[Harel13]

So, now, I am just curious, according to Jewish Bible, what did Moses do to prove to people of His time that He was really prophet of God, conversing back and forth with God, and having commandments from God. I mean, whatever Moses did, perhaps if Jesus was also a true Prophet would have done, or similar things, to be fair.

It's important to remember that many things changed after the giving of the Torah in terms of law. With that being said, it's stated in the Torah that Israel simply believed Moses because they needed that hope that they'll leave Egypt. From a later verse, it's clear they didn't completely believe in his prowess as a prophet, for only after the drowning of the Egyptians in the sea, it says: "And Israel saw the great work which the LORD did upon the Egyptians, and the people feared the LORD; and they believed in the LORD, and in His servant Moses." (Exo.14:31) - this is commonly interpreted to mean that the splitting of the sea was such a tremendous and powerful event - more than all Ten Plagues put together (!) - that they realized that man can, in fact, converse with God, and Moses is one such man.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Jewish Bible?
I would have to compare what it says with Hebrew manuscripts, and see if there are differences.
I won't just consider it, the true text, because it's a Jewish Bible, but you can show me.

When you asked the question though, which answer would you go with, if there is a conflict between the Jewish Bible, and what is in the Septuagint?

I don't think there is discrepancies with regards to the verse I'm talking about. By Jewish Bible I mean what Christians call old testament.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It's important to remember that many things changed after the giving of the Torah in terms of law. With that being said, it's stated in the Torah that Israel simply believed Moses because they needed that hope that they'll leave Egypt. From a later verse, it's clear they didn't completely believe in his prowess as a prophet, for only after the drowning of the Egyptians in the sea, it says: "And Israel saw the great work which the LORD did upon the Egyptians, and the people feared the LORD; and they believed in the LORD, and in His servant Moses." (Exo.14:31) - this is commonly interpreted to mean that the splitting of the sea was such a tremendous and powerful event - more than all Ten Plagues put together (!) - that they realized that man can, in fact, converse with God, and Moses is one such man.

Well, here Bible says something, which can be interpreted similarly, that some years after Jews rejected Jesus, God, caused them to exile from israel to punish them for rejecting Jesus.
But, as regarding to Moses splitting the river, it would make more sense that, God would have done a non-destructive miracle to convince them, instead of killing many, if Gods purpose to do this miracle was to convince them.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Yes.

They may very well have been true miracles. But miracles don't prove someone is right nor that someone is a prophet:
"And if thou say in thy heart: 'How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?' When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken; the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously, thou shalt not be afraid of him." (Deut.18:21-22)

Is it possible that God promises to do something, but later changes His will, or is it possible God says, He will do something but later He posponds it and do it in a more future time than He had initially said will do? Are there any passages in Jewish Bible indicating such a thing?

 

[Harel13]

Is it possible that God promises to do something, but later changes His will, or is it possible God says, He will do something but later He posponds it and do it in a more future time than He had initially said will do?

Just for bad things. Not good things.

Are there any passages in Jewish Bible indicating such a thing?

Yeah. I'll get back to you tomorrow.

 

[nPeace]

I don't think there is discrepancies with regards to the verse I'm talking about. By Jewish Bible I mean what Christians call old testament.

I never saw it, so can you please give me book, Chapter, and verse.

 

[cataway]

I think the Jews expect a Messiah who conquers the east and west.

and he will in his God's do time

 

[cataway]

So, now, I am just curious, according to Jewish Bible, what did Moses do to prove to people of His time that He was really prophet of God, conversing back and forth with God, and having commandments from God. I mean, whatever Moses did, perhaps if Jesus was also a true Prophet would have done, or similar things, to be fair.

LEVITICUS
9:23
"Jehovah’s glory now appeared to all the people, 24 and fire came out from Jehovah and began consuming the burnt offering and the pieces of fat on the altar. When all the people saw it, they started shouting and they fell with their faces to the ground."
seems pretty convincing to me that he had God's backing

 

[stvdv]

I am talking about the Jews who lived at the time of Jesus, not the Jews in our time!

When Jesus appeared among nation of Jews, What did Jesus do for the Jews to prove to them that He was really their Messiah?

Obviously not enough.

If Jesus didnt do anything special to prove it to them, why should even the Jews put to blame for not recognizing Jesus?

Hypothetical: Jews got it wrong
I never blame someone who is blind for not seeing

Why should have the Jews believed Him?

Hypothetical: Jesus = God
The Wise from East could See; the Jews not

Hypothetical: Christians got it wrong
Then the Jews were Wise

Hypothetical: God directed this Drama
Nobody is right or wrong.
Just God's Drama (Leela)

etc...

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I never saw it, so can you please give me book, Chapter, and verse.

This:


Deuteronomy 13 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
The False Prophet
13 “If a prophet or someone who has dreams arises among you and proclaims a sign or wonder to you, 2 and that sign or wonder he has promised you comes about, but he says, ‘Let us follow other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us worship them,’ 3 do not listen to that prophet’s words or to that dreamer. For the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul. 4 You must follow the Lord your God and fear Him. You must keep His commands and listen to His voice; you must worship Him and remain faithful .....5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he has urged rebellion against the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the place of slavery...

 

[dybmh]

So, if the Jews saw miracles of Jesus, why they didnt believe Him?

Because miracles aren't the criteria for being the messiah.

Could God give power to false prophets to do miracles?

Being a prophet does not make someone Messiah. And having power does not make someone a prophet.

 

[Samantha Rinne]

I am talking about the Jews who lived at the time of Jesus, not the Jews in our time!

When Jesus appeared among nation of Jews, What did Jesus do for the Jews to prove to them that He was really their Messiah?
Did Jesus show miracles to all of them, and the Jews knowingly that those are miracles of God, yet they rejected them?
What special things did Jesus do, if any, that they must have known for sure He is their messiah?

If Jesus didnt do anything special to prove it to them, why should even the Jews put to blame for not recognizing Jesus?

After all any false messiah could come, and fail to fulfill prophecies, pospond it to a second time. Messiah was supposed to bring peace in His time, but that did not happen in Jesus time, then Jesus said He comes back to do the rest at the end time. Why should have the Jews believed Him?

???

First off, most of the Jews rejected Jesus.

Second off, seriously, why bother debating with us? Obviously, you've not read the Bible, and are taking the Quran's (or the Bahai book's) word for it. A theologian can tell you that each of the Gospels are how Jesus is proven to many things: King of the Jews (Matthew), Son of God (John), a servant (Mark), Son of Man (Luke).

The most important means of proving himself as Messiah was not miracles. It was that he fulfilled prophecy. Time and again, Matthew mentions "This was to fulfill the prophecy..." Now, you can debate that these prophecies were fulfilled if you want but that's why.

Jews rejected Jesus because they were looking for a different sort of Messiah than Jesus was. Not a Savior but a Liberator (someone to free them from Roman rule).

 

[firedragon]

I think the Jews expect a Messiah who conquers the east and west.

Well thats not correct. The messiah the Jews were waiting for was a man who would throw the rule of invaders and establish his leadership.

This "Conquers the east and west" thing is simply too vague and not quite right.

 

[nPeace]

This:


Deuteronomy 13 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
The False Prophet
13 “If a prophet or someone who has dreams arises among you and proclaims a sign or wonder to you, 2 and that sign or wonder he has promised you comes about, but he says, ‘Let us follow other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us worship them,’ 3 do not listen to that prophet’s words or to that dreamer. For the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul. 4 You must follow the Lord your God and fear Him. You must keep His commands and listen to His voice; you must worship Him and remain faithful .....5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he has urged rebellion against the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the place of slavery...

This verse does not say, God give power to the false prophet to do miracles. Where does it say that?

 

[sooda]

Recall the account in the book of Acts, shows that there were practices of divination (Acts 16:16), and even when Jesus walked the earth (Matthew 7:22, 23; 9:32-34; 13:54; Mark 6:14, 15).
The Jews were very familiar with these works.

Jesus' works were more powerful, and went beyond what diviners practiced (i.e. opening the eyes of the know blind; restoring withered hands; healing paralyzed; raising the dead). Similar to when Moses went beyond the magic arts of Pharaoh's priests.

Since practicing these arts was common, it was not something, everyone living at that time would have concluded without a doubt, to be proof of a Godsend.
Those who put all the facts together - Messiah arriving on time, born in the right place, speaking like no other, spearheading a ministry, taking up from where John the Baptist left of, and taught as much,etc., etc.
That's why Jesus said things such as are found in these verses...
(Matthew 11:15) Let the one who has ears listen.
(Matthew 13:15) For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes, so that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and get the sense of it with their hearts and turn back and I heal them.’
(John 9:39-41)
39 Jesus then said: “For this judgment I came into this world, that those not seeing might see and those seeing might become blind.” 40 Those of the Pharisees who were with him heard these things, and they said to him: “We are not blind also, are we?” 41 Jesus said to them: “If you were blind, you would have no sin. But now you say, ‘We see.’ Your sin remains.”

It was not just about seeing with physical eyes. Atheist do that. It was about seeing with a heart of discernment, wisdom and understanding.
His true followers had all of that.

Jesus wasn't a warrior or a king and he didn't rid Palestine of the Romans.