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Why is it Only those who "Walk with God" have Encountered Satan?

Salad

Member

Because in monotheistic religion there is a balance of good and evil and thus, there is a balance of God and Satan. They are connected. It would be irrational to find truth in one and not the other and therefore if you have to accept that Satan exists, then you accept that God exists.
 
Why is it always those who "walk with god" who have some sort of personal experience with Satan? Why doesn't he ever present himself in any way to Atheists? If I'm on his team, why doesn't he ever show up to kick my *** for slacking off on my duty to persecute christians? Shouldn't your personal relationship with jesus protect you from Satan? I've been an atheist for over 15 years and I've never encountered even the slightest evidence for satan.

I think Satan is basically a representation of anything and everything that's considered bad, evil or "sinful". Also, if God is the one who makes all the great stuff happen, then it stands to reason that someone should make the bad stuff happen. Satan is used as a representation that allows God to be seen as good, while Satan is seen as bad, so the believers can still love God without blaming him for the bad events. In other words, both the idea of a controlling God and Satan allow for the believer to have less responsibility on themselves, especially when something bad happens. Satan becomes a scapegoat and so the believer still feels good about themselves because they perceive themselves to not be at fault. Furthermore, any "sinful" acts, which normally would lower one's chances of getting to heaven, are not due to the believer, they're due to Satan, which allows the believer to continue believing both by blaming Satan and by having a greater desire to get to heaven in order to defeat Satan.

It's akin to having 3 people: A,B and C. A is the believer and anytime anything good happens, B gets praised whereas anytime something bad happens, C is blamed. This allows A to feel no responsibility for the bad events because it wasn't their fault. They still want good things to happen, so they praise and praise B more and more, while blaming C more and more.
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
Because in monotheistic religion there is a balance of good and evil and thus, there is a balance of God and Satan. They are connected. It would be irrational to find truth in one and not the other and therefore if you have to accept that Satan exists, then you accept that God exists.

If one digs deep enough into monotheism there is balance of good and evil though...
there is just "God"..

one has to go beyond the exoteric though
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
I think Satan is basically a representation of anything and everything that's considered bad, evil or "sinful". Also, if God is the one who makes all the great stuff happen, then it stands to reason that someone should make the bad stuff happen. Satan is used as a representation that allows God to be seen as good, while Satan is seen as bad, so the believers can still love God without blaming him for the bad events. In other words, both the idea of a controlling God and Satan allow for the believer to have less responsibility on themselves, especially when something bad happens. Satan becomes a scapegoat and so the believer still feels good about themselves because they perceive themselves to not be at fault. Furthermore, any "sinful" acts, which normally would lower one's chances of getting to heaven, are not due to the believer, they're due to Satan, which allows the believer to continue believing both by blaming Satan and by having a greater desire to get to heaven in order to defeat Satan.

It's akin to having 3 people: A,B and C. A is the believer and anytime anything good happens, B gets praised whereas anytime something bad happens, C is blamed. This allows A to feel no responsibility for the bad events because it wasn't their fault. They still want good things to happen, so they praise and praise B more and more, while blaming C more and more.

and you'd be wrong....

satan is the tester, the advercary....

of course for simplistic stereotypical non thinking poorly informed christians, of which there are no doubt over a billion, I am sure...

then yes, satan is the "boogey" man....

but if we look to Judaism, satan is a loyal servant of God, here to test mankind.
 

Mestemia

Advocatus Diaboli
Premium Member
Because in monotheistic religion there is a balance of good and evil and thus, there is a balance of God and Satan. They are connected. It would be irrational to find truth in one and not the other and therefore if you have to accept that Satan exists, then you accept that God exists.
Huh?

I know of not one single Christian who would say that Satan is Gods equal opposite.
Seems to me that this here kinda pokes a huge hole in your theory.

And this is assuming that Christians follow your particular standards for balance.
Seems to me that the trinity also pokes a rather large hole in your theory.

In fact, I know several Christians (a whole church full in fact) who believe in god as a separate entity, yet also believe that satan is merely the bad side of man.
Seems to me that this also pokes a hole in your theory.


And what of the religions that believe that there is God and nothing other?
that god is both the good and evil balance all in one?

If these religions can exist, then why can't it exist a religion that believes in satan et not in god?



Seems to me that you seriously underestimate the imaginations of those who believe.
 

Salad

Member
For example
Christians believe in a God.
Yes?
Christians believe that there is an evil force known as Satan.
Yes?
If an Atheist expects to have an experience of Satan, they therefore accept a possibility of Satan existing.
To accept a possibility of Satan existing they also have to accept a concept of God existing.
Yes?


I know of not one single Christian who would say that Satan is Gods equal opposite.

I was using a basic understanding, of course it is terrible to over generalise, however when one becomes too specific the argument may end up taking a different angle and I wanted to avoid that :)

And this is assuming that Christians follow your particular standards for balance.

I admit that my area of knowledge does not include Christianity, however, I was using my experience of philosophy to add to the argument, which is not as developed as may be desired :)


In fact, I know several Christians (a whole church full in fact) who believe in god as a separate entity,

I never said they were a part of the same entity...

yet also believe that satan is merely the bad side of man.

Different views of the manifestations of Satan never entered my argument, as I considered it unimportant to the discussion. I thought that the debate merely called upon Satan as being.

And what of the religions that believe that there is God and nothing other?
that god is both the good and evil balance all in one?

That does enter my argument if you read carefully :)

If these religions can exist, then why can't it exist a religion that believes in satan et not in god?

Because Satan is an all-evil concept that has developed as an opposite to the concept of an all-good God.
 
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Mestemia

Advocatus Diaboli
Premium Member
Because Satan is an all-evil concept that has developed as an opposite to the concept of an all-good God.
So basically you are saying that you have no intentions of having an actual discussion, just a "drive by" commentating?
 

Salad

Member
So basically you are saying that you have no intentions of having an actual discussion, just a "drive by" commentating?

If I was writing an actual critique, I would be far more informed in the classical concept of Satan and God.
I joined this forum in order to receive critique in an attempt to develop my argument skills.
I do intend to have an actual discussion of course, because of the above reasons. Its just your critique of my point caught me off guard!! :eek:
 
and you'd be wrong....

satan is the tester, the advercary....

Is it not possible for every bad event to be considered a test of one's faith, and so Satan is now the "tester" or the being conjuring up these malicious events? Or, is Satan merely the "tester" but some other being is conjuring up the events?

of course for simplistic stereotypical non thinking poorly informed christians, of which there are no doubt over a billion, I am sure...

Agreed and happily I'm not one of them.

but if we look to Judaism, satan is a loyal servant of God, here to test mankind.

So is God conjuring up the bad events or is Satan the one conjuring them up?
 

MSizer

MSizer
For example
Christians believe in a God.
Yes?
Christians believe that there is an evil force known as Satan.
Yes?
If an Atheist expects to have an experience of Satan, they therefore accept a possibility of Satan existing.

Yes, but my point was between the lines. My point is that atheists don't ever seem (at least to my knowledge) "know" satan, so satan's existence is as unlikely as god's IMO. Especially since atheists are considered by some believers as tools of satan.

To accept a possibility of Satan existing they also have to accept a concept of God existing.
Yes?

I'm not so sure I agree with that. I can't think of any logic that proves "IF god THEN satan OR IF satan THEN god, ELSE god or satan <> 1". Seems fallacious to me.
 

blueman

God's Warrior
Why is it always those who "walk with god" who have some sort of personal experience with Satan? Why doesn't he ever present himself in any way to Atheists? If I'm on his team, why doesn't he ever show up to kick my *** for slacking off on my duty to persecute christians? Shouldn't your personal relationship with jesus protect you from Satan? I've been an atheist for over 15 years and I've never encountered even the slightest evidence for satan.
Satan's mission is to vigorously oppose God and His people and will do this through the attack of the mind. This is a place where people tend to have the most vulnerability. He wants to capture the heart of man (mind, will and emotions) with the goal of (1) Surpressing the central truth of God's purpose for mankind and to distract those of the Christian faith in focusing on earthly, secular things, rather than spiritual growth. You may think Satan has never visited you, but I would venture to say that he has already influenced your paradigm.
 

MSizer

MSizer
Satan's mission is to vigorously oppose God and His people and will do this through the attack of the mind. This is a place where people tend to have the most vulnerability. He wants to capture the heart of man (mind, will and emotions) with the goal of (1) Surpressing the central truth of God's purpose for mankind and to distract those of the Christian faith in focusing on earthly, secular things, rather than spiritual growth. You may think Satan has never visited you, but I would venture to say that he has already influenced your paradigm.

So then we have no option to reject him? If I don't even know I've been affected by him, how can I be held responsible for not rejecting him? Seems pretty damning to me (literaly). God wants me to come to him (which I don't understand, since he could have skipped the whole earthly life in the first place, but anyway) yet he doesn't afford me the tools to recognize when I am astray of his wishes?
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
600px-galanthus_nivalis.jpg




So is God conjuring up the bad events or is Satan the one conjuring them up?

my opinion?

God is....

God creates both good and evil...read the bible....
God is both Good and evil...see kabbalah, texts like "treatise on the left emanation"

Treatise on the Left Emanation: Part 1
I have noted your tremendous desire to ascend to the ladder of wisdom and perceive enigmas and grasp the cunning ways of the ancient Sages, the masters of inscriptions, those who expounded upon the secrets of the souls. And having noted that the Lord God, may He be blessed, bestowed upon you an attentive and understanding heart, I have decided with much fondness to answer your question and fulfill your request.
I will do this for you even though you are quite aware that this path was not trod upon except for "two or three berries in the top of the uppermost bough" (Isaiah 17:6) -- these are the ancient elders, the scholars of Spain who delved in the palace of Samael. It is a long and deep path and it eludes all masters of wisdom of the hidden emanation, the "depth of good and the depth of evil." (Sefer Yetzirah 1:4) It is known only to those few solitary individuals, "the remnant who the Lord shall call" (Joel 3:5). Moreover, to the best of my ability I will not stray my steps from the path in order to grant your wish and quench a bit of your thirst. May His most beloved assist me in His mercy and Loving kindness.


Satan is of course the self....
Perhaps the greatest book of satan is the Baghavad Gita....
the "hindu" war book outlines the war for the soul, for the self...

Jesus is tempted in the desert, Buddha was tempted by the tree
Satan, the tester came to them....Satan gave them the easy way..the way of power
the way of the self.

Christ and Buddha rejected this....and chose the path of ALL, not the self....

Thus satan is what we place before ourselves and our true selves....

Berfore enlightenment carry water chop wood....

as we progress, we can think of using a chainsaw, building a dam

after enlightenment carry water chop wood

It is in the act of chainsaws, damming water...that we have satan...
satan is the tempter, the one that sees if we are worthy

The greatest battle a person will ever face
Is to overcome themselves

.............
One day during a storm a heavy branch fell onto a little snowdrop plant. Later when the branch was removed the small tender stems, unharmed, were seen to have spread out and curled around as if to embrace the log. Less than an hour later, the little shoots had all but straightened out and, unimpeded, were growing upward toward their fulfillment.


–Murshida Sitara Brutnell


It is easy to confuse this principle of keeping within proper bounds with mediocrity, with being neither one thing nor an&shy;other. In reality there is a vast difference. What the Jewish sages recommend is not only a middle way, it is a rejection of ex&shy;tremes in terms of a clear knowledge of how to keep everything, including the extreme, in its proper place. Consequently, in general, there are no preconceptions about what is the correct conduct for all situations, since the correctness of a way of be&shy;ing is itself only measurable in terms of a specific set of circum&shy;stances that may or may not recur. There is therefore no possibility of fixing a single standard of behavior. If anything is clear, it is that a rigid, unchanging way is wrong. Furthermore, this principle of movement, of constant change, is the principle manifested by the soul itself in its life on earth. To be sure, a person needs a special teacher or a great deal of guidance in or&shy;der to be able always to find the right measure; usually choosing the correct way grows out of the soul’s continual oscillation from one extreme to another. This pendulum swing of experi&shy;ence brings about a certain synthesis somewhere in the mid&shy;dle-although too often it is an artificial middle, merely halfway between good and evil and neither one nor the other.

–The 13 petalled rose (Adin Steinsaltz)




 
my opinion?

God is....

God creates both good and evil...read the bible....

I'm aware of that. The concern though is that if god makes all the stuff happen, then how does Satan "test" people? Does he tell god to go and make something happen and god obliges, or does Satan make the events occur? If god has made all the evil that there is in the world from the beginning, then what does Satan do to test people? Does he somehow pick some event from a long, predefined list that god kindly made? The bible professes that Satan makes the events occur and tests people in that way, and he knows what people want or what will encourage them to sin. Has God provided him with this strength or is Satan a rising force in power? These were all the implications of my question I asked.


Satan is of course the self....
Perhaps the greatest book of satan is the Baghavad Gita....
the "hindu" war book outlines the war for the soul, for the self...

Jesus is tempted in the desert, Buddha was tempted by the tree
Satan, the tester came to them....Satan gave them the easy way..the way of power
the way of the self.

Christ and Buddha rejected this....and chose the path of ALL, not the self....

Thus satan is what we place before ourselves and our true selves....

Berfore enlightenment carry water chop wood....

as we progress, we can think of using a chainsaw, building a dam

after enlightenment carry water chop wood

It is in the act of chainsaws, damming water...that we have satan...
satan is the tempter, the one that sees if we are worthy

The greatest battle a person will ever face
Is to overcome themselves

All of this shows Satan has similar power and function as god, but yet, people have free will, and yet god somehow was able to create all the evil and good necessary that would encompass what people would do. So how does Satan know what the people will be sinful for? The only way is if he has the knowledge that god does of knowing what people will do in order to have the pre-defined evil events. If god only has the power to make good and evil, then the question becomes, if Satan has the knowledge to know what people may be sinful for ahead of time, then why can he not make the evil? If God gives half of what he made to Satan along with the ability to know what people will do ahead of time and makes him the ruler of his domain, then it seems rather odd that Satan is so powerful yet cant make a single thing himself. It doesn't make any sense. This is what I was alluding to before.
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
I'm aware of that. The concern though is that if god makes all the stuff happen, then how does Satan "test" people? Does he tell god to go and make something happen and god obliges, or does Satan make the events occur? If god has made all the evil that there is in the world from the beginning, then what does Satan do to test people? Does he somehow pick some event from a long, predefined list that god kindly made? The bible professes that Satan makes the events occur and tests people in that way, and he knows what people want or what will encourage them to sin. Has God provided him with this strength or is Satan a rising force in power? These were all the implications of my question I asked.




All of this shows Satan has similar power and function as god, but yet, people have free will, and yet god somehow was able to create all the evil and good necessary that would encompass what people would do. So how does Satan know what the people will be sinful for? The only way is if he has the knowledge that god does of knowing what people will do in order to have the pre-defined evil events. If god only has the power to make good and evil, then the question becomes, if Satan has the knowledge to know what people may be sinful for ahead of time, then why can he not make the evil? If God gives half of what he made to Satan along with the ability to know what people will do ahead of time and makes him the ruler of his domain, then it seems rather odd that Satan is so powerful yet cant make a single thing himself. It doesn't make any sense. This is what I was alluding to before.

there's no such thing as satan

the test, the tester are the self

satan is like cheating on a test...
you can surely cheat on a test

but down the line, if you didnt do the work..and have to apply thwe knowledge to the workplace you're up a creek without a paddle

but it is far nicer for some, to take the easy way out....and cheat
 
there's no such thing as satan

By that logic, there's no such thing as god.

the test, the tester are the self

Before you mentioned:

satan is the tester

I'm not understanding how someone can be Satan or the "tester" as well as being the tests that are produced by the "tester" to test the individual, which is apparently Satan. That's akin to saying that every person is Satan, and if that is so, then who governs the domain of hell?

satan is like cheating on a test...
you can surely cheat on a test

Now you've really lost me. So Satan is now the tester AND the test AND every single person is Satan. :confused:

So if Satan is all these things and if people are all Satan, then what is God? I was under the impression Satan is one distinct being who can affect other people but if this is not so, then if evil is everyone, then is good everyone also? :confused:
 

blackout

Violet.
By that logic, there's no such thing as god.



Before you mentioned:



I'm not understanding how someone can be Satan or the "tester" as well as being the tests that are produced by the "tester" to test the individual, which is apparently Satan. That's akin to saying that every person is Satan, and if that is so, then who governs the domain of hell?



Now you've really lost me. So Satan is now the tester AND the test AND every single person is Satan. :confused:

So if Satan is all these things and if people are all Satan, then what is God? I was under the impression Satan is one distinct being who can affect other people but if this is not so, then if evil is everyone, then is good everyone also? :confused:

gOd is satan too.

and satan is gOd.

Oh yes. All people are gOd as well.
 

blackout

Violet.
I do agree that everyone can be their own god, however, I'm thinking this is going to conflict with the biblical views. Oh well.


It's not something that concerns me.
People have all kinds of views.

There are even biblical views that witness my assertion.
(of course those views would be my own--
and they're no longer important, even to me.)
 
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