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Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Rival, May 13, 2019.

  1. Rival

    Rival Noachide
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    This is beginning to irk me. There seems to be this trend for news reporters to latch to the stories of random people who leave their religions. I've not noticed the same for the other way. It's always couched in this sort of language:

    'How I escaped the Ultra Orthodox Life.'

    'How I Freed Myself From The Church.'

    'My Life After Wahabism.'

    It goes on and on. Has it never occurred to these journalists that some people are, oh I don't know, happy in their fundamentalist religious communes? Where are all the 'I found happiness in the Charedi community' stories? I notice it's all good when someone's religious views match current social values, when people 'escape into modernity'. G-d forbid a woman could be happy with 8 kids and a husband who prays every day, right? She'll only be happy when she realises how oppressed she is and frees herself, goes to university and becomes an engineer, then someone can write an editorial all about how her childhood was terrible and all she ever knew was making babies (eventually, because she didn't know that sex existed before this, amirite?).

    I put to you, the damned foolish opinion, that some people are happy in tight-knit, traditionalist religious communities and they don't need your enlightenment.
     
    #1 Rival, May 13, 2019
    Last edited: May 13, 2019
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  2. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
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    That's silly.
    Girls don't become engineers.
    (Too much social awareness & skill.)
     
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  3. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member
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    Great post !

    There is hostility to people of faith from the modern social movement. As always, anyone who doesn´t agree to the new social order is excoriated.

    Your observation regarding their snipers at work is spot on
     
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  4. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member
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    Train engineers ?
     
  5. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
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    The manliest of all engineers?
    Pish posh!
     
  6. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    The story is not about those who are happy in these groups. The story is about those who broke free of it because it was harming them in someway. It's a story about those who typically underwent an ordeal and how they got away.

    These people do exist within these communities too.
    Would you rather their voices be not heard, because that might lead to others feeling empowered to do the same for themselves?


    "Everything is fine" stories typically aren't considered news, regardless if its about religion or politics or any other area of life. "Did you hear the news about Betty? She's as normal as always". That's not news.

    Do you believe that a woman who breaks away from a group that she feels oppresses her, is saying all the women of the community should leave too? Do you not think that she maybe was doing that for herself, and recognizes that while that may be fine for others, it wasn't for her?

    But aren't you saying they shouldn't leave, and they need your enlightenment?
     
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  7. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    As long as you are aware of an opposite and much
    stronger hostility to people who do not subscribe
    to the local faith.

    Though really, I am not sure that "hostility" to
    faith is really what is going on. Unless, of course.
    the "faith" happens to be Islam.
     
  8. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    This is too easy.

    Happy contented people don't generate the kind of copy that draws viewers to the advertising. So, of course, capitalistic media will gravitate towards the drama. The stories that you're talking about are out there on the internet. They just don't get much attention because not that many people care.

    Tom
     
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  9. Rival

    Rival Noachide
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    No, you have misunderstood. I have a problem with how it's worded most of the time. Most of the articles and videos I watch seem to paint these communities as backwards, vile, woman hating places and the secular world as some kind of freedom utopia. I have a problem with how they paint fundamentalist religious communities.

    What about all the wedding stories? All the 'look at what so-and-so wore to such-and-such event' stories? They're not exactly thrilling reads either. I'm just asking that, if you're going to write articles about people who leave, why not flip the coin for a change?

    No, I'm blaming the journalists who write these pieces for making out these communities are like lockdown prisons.

    No, I'm saying I wish news treatment would not paint religious communities as antithetical to the modern world and making the general public think that religious fundamentalists are all nutcases.
     
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  10. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    I dunno. Could you give some examples of what you mean? I could give you a thousand headline articles in magazines that are complete trash about all sorts of topics, but those particular magazines function mostly as poor quality toilet paper, near as I can tell.

    I watched this fairly recently. It was interesting, if a little tough for my delicate secular sensibilities...ahem...

    {{ meta.ogTitle }}

    Pretty sure that will only stream for Aussies, but the series is American.
    I also enjoy Louis Theroux sometimes.
     
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  11. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    How do you define 'the modern world'?
    Religion is a broad umbrella..I'd hazard that some are indeed antithetical to the modern world...
     
  12. ImmortalFlame

    ImmortalFlame Well-Known Member

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    Maybe it's worth reading past the headlines and seeing why they put it in those terms. Often, those people don't come from communities that treated them well or were healthy to be in, and since they have left they have become happier and healthier. Is that impossible for you to comprehend? That some religious communities are harmful and people can express happiness after leaving them? It doesn't necessarily mean ALL religious communities are - don't be so defensive.
     
  13. Rival

    Rival Noachide
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    This, for a start,

    "He told BBC World Service how his life has been transformed since breaking free."

    He just left, really.

    The man mentions that there is 'no internet, no social media'. This a lie. A brazen lie. Many Haredim use the internet! Some of them have blogs, some visit fora, some post on youtube, many use it to study.

    'Why I had to leave my ultra-Orthodox life'

    And this

    They left Islam and now tour the US to talk about it

    Muhammad remembers "one guy going to the bathroom for a really long time".

    "I was half-joking to Sarah that he's probably assembling a gun," he says.

    Half-joking but half-thinking…?

    "Could be," he says. "Could be."

    There are so many leaving Islam and Christianity stories and some are linked halfway through this article. This is the kind of language I am talking about though.

    (Sorry I took so long, I was trying to find good examples of exactly the language and smear I meant)
     
  14. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    I'd have to see some examples of what you are referring to. If they are reporting what the woman or man who left these communities is saying about what they are like, then it is reporting what they were told by someone who had been part of it. That's part of the story. Are you saying they are doing a actual report on the community itself and saying only negative things?



    I have seen reports about religious communities that are traditionalists, as well as those who are fundamentalists (there is a distinction to be made between these). Typically it shows both the good sides of it for those within them, as well as the problems. But balanced perspectives are typically more the duty of documentaries, not news reporting.

    Aren't they reporting what the person leaving it told them? If so, then it's clear why they feel they needed to leave. When you have scores of people leaving and all saying the same things, then that is newsworthy.

    I need to make a distinction between traditionalism and fundamentalism for what I am about to say to make sense. Traditionalism is a system of beliefs and practices that are followed from generation to generation, and it has certain values and modes of thinking which are part of it. This is a powerful "engine" that has worked to keep communities together and strong through a cohesion of values and beliefs. There are core truths within it which are brought forward into Modernity, transcending but including it.

    Fundamentalism on the other hand, is a reactionary response to modernity. Fundamentalism is a direct response to modernity, saying NO. It is a modern phenomenon. Traditionalism is ancient. Fundamentalism is to modernity, what atheism is to theism. A negative response to it. It is anti-modernity. As such fundamentalism tends to be anti-intellectual, anti-science, anti-others. It's not truly conservative. It's reactionary. And that's different.

    As such, fundamentalism is by definition a negative, being a negative response to modernity. It's not a healthy form or traditionalism. It's not even truly traditionalist. While you may have those within fundamentalist groups who find some sense of belonging and connection, as whole it's not a healthy system, as it is defining itself as "against" progress and modernization. It forces isolation within itself away from others. This is the opposite of love. Traditionalists are about establishing love, not isolationism.
     
  15. Rival

    Rival Noachide
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    In the context, I mean how the secular/western style of living is often promoted as the most desirable and anyone who doesn't want that must be mental, or have childhood issues, or something.

    No, I totally understand that some people are unhappy in their communities, I'm not arguing against that. I'm arguing about broad brushes used to paint fundamentalist religious communities as horrible places to be and making the public afraid of them.
     
  16. Rival

    Rival Noachide
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    I'm saying that the language they use is slanted towards giving the reader or viewer a negative mental image. I do not know if this is what the person in the story said or not, because journalists often, if not always, use some poetic license to beef stories up - another issue I have. Perhaps I am just complaining about journalists!

    Unfortunately. This is exactly my issue, I suppose.

    I don't know, that's half the problem. Is most of it true, or just more propaganda against these communities? These people seem to be being congratulated for leaving.

    There are fundamentalist communities that interact with the modern world. There are fundamentalists who go to universities, work in secular jobs, use the internet and so on. I will have to disagree with you here.
     
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  17. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    As opposed to what? How conservative religionists describe secularism and the secular style of living? How we're all hell bound sinners who hate God?
    Tom
     
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  18. Rival

    Rival Noachide
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    No, mostly promoting socially liberal values that go against conservative religious ones. 'You'll be happier if you have a career', 'You'll be happy if you sleep around', 'You should get an abortion you already have 3 kids,' 'Marriage is out-dated' and so forth.
     
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  19. Rival

    Rival Noachide
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    To be honest I think that about most papers/magazines.

    Possibly this thread should be 'Why does Journalism Suck?'
     
  20. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    Well, actually I agree with you there.
    But then, I don't really consider myself particularly liberal.
    Of course, I also commonly find conservative values pretty disgusting as well. I'm just difficult.
    Tom
     
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