WHY I LEFT ISLAM - The Story of An Apostate In Saudi

[Shadow Wolf]

There are many YEC who are non-violent and even scientifically minded, BUT that does not make it right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here's the real question: Why give a rats ***? So what if they believe in some form of creationism? It doesn't make their views correct, but the belief itself has zero bearing or impact on my life - not until a sub-culture of them start to believe their religious creation mythos should be taught as science fact. If not, it's really on par with Holmes not realizing the moon revolves around the Earth and not caring that it does because it has no bearing on what he does or who he is.

How would you like it if a religion flew jets into tall buildings murdering thousands of your own people, because of what many claim is adherence to mythology?

Religious extremists did this, a religion did not. And rather than invade their home and tell them what to do, I would deal with those responsible. There would be no boots or bombs, but covert assassinations and seeds of confusion planted.

Personal attack much?

I'm not the one who insisted someone learn a broken quote function, or the one who hasn't realized there are several posts here that look like his because the feature is broken.

Liberal rhetoric

Again, welcome to the club of baseless and mindless assumptions.
Incase you haven't heard, Liberals are known for even being reluctant of criticizing their culture. But when we have Muslims who were born and raised in America who act and behave more-or-less like any other American, and Muslims who were born and raised in the Middle East and act more-or-less like other Muslims there (and that is a major generalization), I am inclined to state there is far more than the religion at work causing these people to be radically conservative and sometimes violent extremists.
If Islam is the problem, then why have cities here, which have enough Muslims to even have Islamic Centers in town, why do we not have any problems with them? If their religion is such an threat, then why did my one blunder of ignorance that interrupted an evening prayer (I thought it was finished once they stood up) not cause an issue or scene (and this involved Middle Eastern Muslims)? If it's just the religion, then how do we account for the cultural differences that we see? And not just with Muslims, but even with Christians in the same area, such as the Lord's Resistance Army, we see handfuls of them that are bloodthirsty maniacs.

 

[Agnostic Religiophile]

Do you have someone or a group in mind we can blame for these Islamic problems besides islam itself?

How do you not interpret an Islamic problem, as not Islamic?

Well if we look at two cases of religious extremism: Islamic State and Saudi Arabia

I'm sure we can all agree that the root causes of Islamic State was the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Now the claim that IS does such abhorrent actions such as killing Shiites and using chemical weapons against civilians is becuase they are Islamic, for me does not stand up. If we compare the actions of the Shi'a militias (whose extreme actions e.g. burning people to death on an open pit, weren't religiously sanctioned), the Pro-Ba'ath party militais and what was at the time Al-Qa'eda in Iraq, we can see that their actions were very similar although one organisation was secular and the other saw themselves as the true Muslims.

I was also like to point out that Islamic State often relies on secondary sources in Islamic jurisprudence such as necessity through great public interest and public welfare to justify their killing, something that to someone with a clear mind is quite irrational. Another example of their irrational interpretation is their use of revenge that they inherited from Al-Qa'eda, it is based on chapter 5, verse 45 of the Qur'an and it reads:
"And we ordained for them (the Jews and Christians) therein a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, and for wounds is legal retribution. But whoever gives up his right as charity, it is an expiation for him. And whoever does not judge by what God has revealed – then it is those who are the wrongdoers"
Now all Islamic scholars were of the opinion that this is a type of legal punishment know as qisas and can only be applied (in the most liberal interpretation) to what is within the realm of permissibility, must be sanctioned by a judge, carried out only when the proper court proceedings have taken place and against the individual responsible; not as a collective or on the basis of a shared nationality. My point here is that we can see the verse they are using as evidence for murder of civilians (even by itself) is not rational, and I have heard one leading psychology expert say that the consensus amgonst professionals in his field is that one can't come to such conclusions without having many psychopathic traits and a thirst for revenge etc (although it should be noted that religion will help to build a strong identity and therefore make it somewhat easier)

So my point for Islamic State is that we see little difference with their conduct on the battlefield between them and secular groups and Islam is not the root cause, religion only helps to build an identity as a driving force (just as political ideology did in Syria). In short it did not come from a new learnt understanding of Islam during a golden age like Hanafism did but out of a brutal and violent world we cannot comprehend.

So as for your first question, I blame Saddam Hussein, the governments involved in the 2003 invasion of Iraq, Nouri al-Maliki and Iran as well as, of course, the murderers that join IS for whatever reason/s.

As for your second question, I think I've try my best to cover that above

Another example of Islamic extremism, is Saudi Arabia. In brief I would argue that the main driving force behind this is the Saudi royal family, using their alliance with the Wahhabi clergy, just as they did 200 years ago to grant them legitimacy. As for the the clergy itself, I don't know why the founder of Wahhabism decided to take such a literalist interpretation of Islam that was very foreign to his time and even after rebuttals by his close family but nowadays I can only blame the not so pious royal family of Saudi Arabia and yes, Wahhabism (a legitimate interpretation of Islam) that has been presented to people as the one and only true Islam, although the lack of an alternative ideology in the Arab world - in part due to monarchies and the cold war - could be another reason

 

[LuisDantas]

The Golden Age of Islam took place with the same Quran, and that's a fact. It is premature to presume that it wasn't beneficial in the Golden Age just because of negative feelings against it.

True. But that is not the issue here, not at all.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

True. But that is not the issue here, not at all.

It kind of is the point, because it indicates major cultural shifts. The Koran hasn't changed, but the places that generally follow it as a religion have. Much like how the Bible hasn't changed, but the cultures that generally follow it as a religion have. We still have Catholics and Episcopalians and Baptists and Lutherans and many others, but the cultures they are mostly practiced in no longer tolerate killing each other over such differences. We don't tolerate witch trials either, and even where Christianity is still the official state religion people are free to choose their own religion.

 

[icehorse]

Hey Agnostic Reliogiophile (AR?) -

Given your arguments, will you then concede that Islam offers the world no benefits?

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

The Golden Age of Islam took place with the same Quran, and that's a fact. It is premature to presume that it wasn't beneficial in the Golden Age just because of negative feelings against it.

Correlation does not equal causation. The Golden Age of Islam occurred because the Arabs encountered & conquered more advanced civilisations than their own and gained their accumulated knowledge & learning - as well as that of previous civilisations which had been preserved. One Abbasid Caliph is reputed to have said:

"The Persians ruled for a thousand years and did not need us Arabs even for a day. We have been ruling them for one or two centuries and cannot do without them for an hour."

Further, the Arab scholar Ibn Khaldun mentioned in 1377 the disparate relationship between the Arabs and Persians in pursuit of knowledge, learning & arts. Something the Arabs seem to disavow.

"It is a remarkable fact that, with few exceptions, most Muslim scholars ... in the intellectual sciences have been non-Arabs, thus the founders of grammar were Sibawaih and after him, al-Farsi and Az-Zajjaj. All of them were of Persian descent they invented rules of (Arabic) grammar. Great jurists were Persians. Only the Persians engaged in the task of preserving knowledge and writing systematic scholarly works. Thus the truth of the statement of the prophet (Muhammad) becomes apparent, 'If learning were suspended in the highest parts of heaven the Persians would attain it "... The intellectual sciences were also the preserve of the Persians, left alone by the Arabs, who did not cultivate them…as was the case with all crafts. ... This situation continued in the cities as long as the Persians and Persian countries, Iraq, Khorasan and Transoxiana (modern Central Asia), retained their sedentary culture."

Even historical Muslims recognised the societies they conquered were superior to their own.

 

[Smart_Guy]

True. But that is not the issue here, not at all.

Exactly!

I had the same in mind

Correlation does not equal causation. The Golden Age of Islam occurred because the Arabs encountered & conquered more advanced civilisations than their own and gained their accumulated knowledge & learning - as well as that of previous civilisations which had been preserved. One Abbasid Caliph is reputed to have said:

"The Persians ruled for a thousand years and did not need us Arabs even for a day. We have been ruling them for one or two centuries and cannot do without them for an hour."

Further, the Arab scholar Ibn Khaldun mentioned in 1377 the disparate relationship between the Arabs and Persians in pursuit of knowledge, learning & arts. Something the Arabs seem to disavow.

"It is a remarkable fact that, with few exceptions, most Muslim scholars ... in the intellectual sciences have been non-Arabs, thus the founders of grammar were Sibawaih and after him, al-Farsi and Az-Zajjaj. All of them were of Persian descent they invented rules of (Arabic) grammar. Great jurists were Persians. Only the Persians engaged in the task of preserving knowledge and writing systematic scholarly works. Thus the truth of the statement of the prophet (Muhammad) becomes apparent, 'If learning were suspended in the highest parts of heaven the Persians would attain it "... The intellectual sciences were also the preserve of the Persians, left alone by the Arabs, who did not cultivate them…as was the case with all crafts. ... This situation continued in the cities as long as the Persians and Persian countries, Iraq, Khorasan and Transoxiana (modern Central Asia), retained their sedentary culture."

Even historical Muslims recognised the societies they conquered were superior to their own.

Yup, that's one possible argument about it. Many assumptions can be said about it really. But which is the truth and what really happened, no one can tell for sure. But it's easy to take away credit from past generations for they are long gone

 

[Agnostic Religiophile]

Given your arguments, will you then concede that Islam offers the world no benefits?

I would argue it can be positive or negative, depending who uses it

So for example some Muslims put a lot of emphasis on character, they are very kind, patient etc. But just becuase they read the Qur'an did that make them kind and change their whole personality? I don't think so

Some Muslims put a lot of emphasis on killing Shiites. But just because they read the Qur'an did that make them into murders over night? I don't so

Now maybe in some cases it opens people's eyes to the very obvious practices that a society shares e.g. praying and giving charity, but 90% of it I believe is their choice, they choose how to interpret it becuase that's how they want to

But I should also add as a real affect I believe it does prevent societies from changing becuse it can make a people close minded, and I believe the Hanafi version of Islam and certain theological interpretations when compared to very liberal or so called ultra conservative interpretations are a more rational understanding and therefore Islam will always have certain characteristics (although 90% of it does change with the culture - for good OR bad)

So to answer your question briefly, yes, largely

 

[Kirran]

Worth highlighting for the sake of the discussion that there are extant and growing Muslim groups who are pro-secularism, non-exclusivist, pro-LGBT rights, anti-misogyny, OK with interreligious marriage featuring Muslim women, evolutionist, etc.

They're small, but are certainly growing, in particular in environments outside the traditionally Muslim world.

 

[icehorse]

I would argue it can be positive or negative, depending who uses it

So for example some Muslims put a lot of emphasis on character, they are very kind, patient etc. But just becuase they read the Qur'an did that make them kind and change their whole personality? I don't think so

Some Muslims put a lot of emphasis on killing Shiites. But just because they read the Qur'an did that make them into murders over night? I don't so

Now maybe in some cases it opens people's eyes to the very obvious practices that a society shares e.g. praying and giving charity, but 90% of it I believe is their choice, they choose how to interpret it becuase that's how they want to

But I should also add as a real affect I believe it does prevent societies from changing becuse it can make a people close minded, and I believe the Hanafi version of Islam and certain theological interpretations when compared to very liberal or so called ultra conservative interpretations are a more rational understanding and therefore Islam will always have certain characteristics (although 90% of it does change with the culture - for good OR bad)

So to answer your question briefly, yes, largely

I'm not 100% sure I've interpreted your answer as you intended.. I think I'm hearing you say that Islam - mostly - offers the world no benefits. Is that correct?

If so, then when we see misogyny, homophobia, anti-semitism, supremacist-behavior and so on, where do you lay the blame? Culture? Because Islam is dominant across many cultures that demonstrate similar behaviors?

 

[Fateme]

This:

Is not a high status for women, putting them in high regards, or even respecting them.

sorry it is bad?

 

[Agnostic Religiophile]

I'm not 100% sure I've interpreted your answer as you intended.. I think I'm hearing you say that Islam - mostly - offers the world no benefits. Is that correct?

If so, then when we see misogyny, homophobia, anti-semitism, supremacist-behavior and so on, where do you lay the blame? Culture? Because Islam is dominant across many cultures that demonstrate similar behaviors?

Yes I do believe it offers little benefit, but also little harm, I believe religion only helps solidify people's chosen interpretation

But regarding homophobia, anti-Semitism etc... I do view them as largely cultural, the anti-Semitism came about after the Arabs were humiliated in their wars against Israel and have now become the opium of the Arabs. As for homophobia, if it is a dislike of homosexual intercourse and somewhat negative feelings surrounding gays then I would blame Islam for that but I don't think it's an excuse or reason why some Muslims hate or mistreat LGBT people, if that were the case then surely Hindus (being polytheists) and people with credit cards (engaging in usury) would too be discriminated against

Also just to clarify, as an example, when forced conversations and exile were being endorsed by the clergy in Europe, I wouldn't blame Christianity itself for what happened.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

sorry it is bad?

It's not bad, it's terrible and degrading. Women shouldn't have to cover up every inch of their body. They shouldn't have to have a man accompanying them. They should be allowed to drive.
Saudi, Iran, Iraq, those places do not respect women, they do not hold them in high regards, and they aren't even good enough to testify in court to bring up rape charges unless she has male witnesses.
I'd much rather prefer wearing jeans, t-shirts, have the freedom to have a higher education, live without a man, and be able to live in accordance with self-determination rather than being so heavily oppressed I can't even show off a cute hair cut.

 

[Agnostic Religiophile]

Women shouldn't have to cover up every inch of their body

To be fair in that case I don't think they were forced too, nor does Islam require a woman to cover every inch of her body, if the issue is freedom then surely it's their right to wear a fancy dress custome or cover their face in plain clothing?

And can you give me a few examples of Iraq disrespecting women?

Also I'm sure girls everywhere now can get a higher education and don't have to live with a man

I apologise if I came across as a bit brash but I think your point would have been a lot better put if you had limited mistreating women to Saudi Arabia and not entered into the realm of stereotypes and generalisations.

 

[Fateme]

It's not bad, it's terrible and degrading. Women shouldn't have to cover up every inch of their body. They shouldn't have to have a man accompanying them. They should be allowed to drive.
Saudi, Iran, Iraq, those places do not respect women, they do not hold them in high regards, and they aren't even good enough to testify in court to bring up rape charges unless she has male witnesses.
I'd much rather prefer wearing jeans, t-shirts, have the freedom to have a higher education, live without a man, and be able to live in accordance with self-determination rather than being so heavily oppressed I can't even show off a cute hair cut.

What? i say again please update your information. i live in Iran and none of this is not true.i have drive`s license and i drive.
why should not cover up every inch of my body??
my religion told me to cover my self so i do it and ofcource everyone do not have to cover themselves.
here in IRAN if done rape Rapist sentenced to death and Her claim is sufficient. it does not matter witnesses is male or female. please go and search
you know what? when i read your post at first i tought it is really about IRAN? It might be true on other countries because Islam in Iran is different with Islam in Saudi Arabia or Iraq or other countries.
I do not care that my hair to show others Because it makes others enjoy So what's in it for me?
I keep myself just for one person.someone i love and he loves me.

 

[icehorse]

AR said:

Yes I do believe it offers little benefit, but also little harm, I believe religion only helps solidify people's chosen interpretation

That's a generous interpretation. My take is that religion acts as a sort of cultural flywheel, helping to keep last generation's worldview in place for the new generation to assimilate. 1,500 - 2,000 years ago, in a very information-poor, primitive world, it wasn't a bad strategy. Today, it's a horrible strategy that causes a lot of unnecessary pain and suffering.

 

[illykitty]

Perfectly clear and very well said. For some reason some people do not wanna see this clear idea and they demonize religions and think a religion, a non living thing, can reform itself, instead of the people following it.

By the way, the Quran does not mention stoning at all

Thanks, I'm glad it was clear.

And I know it doesn't I just couldn't think of an example at the time. Perhaps lashing would be a better example? I remember seeing it when I read the Qu'ran. I know not every Muslim would apply lashing today (or well, I know a few living in the West that are perfectly happy with prison sentences, some converts and some born into the religion). I mean, it's not like lashing is obligated, is it?

And also, since most Muslims follow at least some Hadith to various degrees, some are more... Devoted to them? To the point I think some forget the Qu'ran or use certain Hadith to justify their acts? It seems they regard them as important or more important than the Holy Book. So hence harsh things such as stoning or beheading lots of people. I feel that's quite relevant to many criticism towards Islam. But that's my opinion. I know that you or more reasonable people tend to value the Qu'ran and use their intellect and hearts to know what's right... Well that's how I see you anyway.

 

[icehorse]

AR said:

I'm sure we can all agree that the root causes of Islamic State was the 2003 invasion of Iraq.

Nope, I don't agree. To be clear, I would like Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and the whole gang tried for war crimes, I'm in no way an apologist for that war.

But I'd say it's quite plausible that the moment Hussein was unseated - by any means - we'd have seen chaos in the region. The region was inherently unstable.

 

[paarsurrey]

Why touch unstable to make it most unstable?
Regards

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What? i say again please update your information. i live in Iran and none of this is not true.i have drive`s license and i drive.
why should not cover up every inch of my body??
my religion told me to cover my self so i do it and ofcource everyone do not have to cover themselves.
here in IRAN if done rape Rapist sentenced to death and Her claim is sufficient. it does not matter witnesses is male or female. please go and search
you know what? when i read your post at first i tought it is really about IRAN? It might be true on other countries because Islam in Iran is different with Islam in Saudi Arabia or Iraq or other countries.
I do not care that my hair to show others Because it makes others enjoy So what's in it for me?
I keep myself just for one person.someone i love and he loves me.

I had the wrong country. My mistake.
You can't run for president, you must cover yourself up entirely, divorce laws are heavily stacked in favor of men, inheritance laws heavily favor men, women are held accountable for sex crimes, and some in your government believe you are a part of an enemy conspiracy to subvert the Iranian government.