WHY I LEFT ISLAM - The Story of An Apostate In Saudi

[Agnostic Religiophile]

I signed up to this forum to discuss religion and I think I've spent too much time on this thread and it's turned into a debate about Islam (as expected) from what was supposed to be a story about an apostate in Saudi and serve as an eye opener into the culture of coming out as a non-Muslim

So just to add something that might be helpful, may I suggest we leave simply quoting the Qur'an (without any further explanation) to justify your positions for the EDL Facebook page? I don't think it really serves any purpose

And to clear things up, God for Muslims is not in the sky, I think it can offend people of all religions to think of their God/s as sitting on a cloud looking like a human male and all Muslims see the majority of Islamic scripture as not being subject to time or place but that didn't stop the works of reformers such as Abdul-Wahhab, Sayyid Qutb, Muhammad Abduh and Rashid Rida gaining prominence and influence

Also icehorse, that's basically what I meant, the invasion rather than the conduct and decisions made during the occupation

 

[Smart_Guy]

I signed up to this forum to discuss religion and I think I've spent too much time on this thread and it's turned into a debate about Islam (as expected) from what was supposed to be a story about an apostate in Saudi and serve as an eye opener into the culture of coming out as a non-Muslim

So just to add something that might be helpful, may I suggest we leave simply quoting the Qur'an (without any further explanation) to justify your positions for the EDL Facebook page? I don't think it really serves any purpose

And to clear things up, God for Muslims is not in the sky, I think it can offend people of all religions to think of their God/s as sitting on a cloud looking like a human male and all Muslims see the majority of Islamic scripture as not being subject to time or place but that didn't stop the works of reformers such as Abdul-Wahhab, Sayyid Qutb, Muhammad Abduh and Rashid Rida gaining prominence and influence

Also icehorse, that's basically what I meant, the invasion rather than the conduct and decisions made during the occupation

Just in case, I'm Muslim

Yes, thread do have so much twists here. A human is a collection of thoughts, feelings and understandings, which make us so complicated. Give members a chance in saying what they fell (following the rules, of course) and try to listen to them and interact with them with composure. In the end we are all human beings with different statuses.

Let's be understanding with each other as much as possible

 

[Agnostic Religiophile]

Just in case, I'm Muslim

Yes, thread do have so much twists here. A human is a collection of thoughts, feelings and understandings, which make us so complicated. Give members a chance in saying what they fell (following the rules, of course) and try to listen to them and interact with them with composure. In the end we are all human beings with different statuses.

Let's be understanding with each other as much as possible

I understand, sorry if it came off as brash but I feel some people are just coming on this thread to attack Islam without much thought and offending people in the process, so it's best to leave it as it is I thought

 

[Smart_Guy]

I understand, sorry if it came off as brash but I feel some people are just coming on this thread to attack Islam without much thought and offending people in the process, so it's best to leave it as it is I thought

This happens all the time, really. Don't let it bother you much. Islam teaches to argue in a good way with those don't believe in it. Let's be understanding in how we interact with people, and hopefully they would understand how we feel one day

 

[icehorse]

I understand, sorry if it came off as brash but I feel some people are just coming on this thread to attack Islam without much thought and offending people in the process, so it's best to leave it as it is I thought

AR and Smart_Guy,

Please remember this thread started in a debate forum. During the course of a debate, people will make claims. Any claim made is subject to scrutiny. This is not about "attacking Islam" specifically or "offending people". The whole idea of debates is to analyze ideas. In this case, Islam is a set of ideas, and as such, it is not mean to attack these ideas, it's debate! It's just normal debate!

If you hold an idea so near and dear that you can't bear for your idea to be criticized, don't go in a debate forum.

It's simple: We should attack ideas, not people.

 

[psychoslice]

Thank you
God in the past, present and future
Whatever your attitude towards God
Thou a man loves peace and love
This is the essence of God as I know
As I believe in
Accept my friendship

Yes you can have all those things also without bringing the belief of a god.

 

[paarsurrey]

This happens all the time, really. Don't let it bother you much. Islam teaches to argue in a good way with those don't believe in it. Let's be understanding in how we interact with people, and hopefully they would understand how we feel one day

I agree with you.
Regards

 

[Smart_Guy]

AR and Smart_Guy,

Please remember this thread started in a debate forum. During the course of a debate, people will make claims. Any claim made is subject to scrutiny. This is not about "attacking Islam" specifically or "offending people". The whole idea of debates is to analyze ideas. In this case, Islam is a set of ideas, and as such, it is not mean to attack these ideas, it's debate! It's just normal debate!

If you hold an idea so near and dear that you can't bear for your idea to be criticized, don't go in a debate forum.

It's simple: We should attack ideas, not people.

I know. I tried to imply that too with my posts to AR

 

[Agnostic Religiophile]

Sorry guys but it didn't feel like a proper debate from my point of view, I'm not even a Muslim. If somebody came on here and said something like "Jews think they're better than gentiles and killed Jesus" without any further explanation or trying to make clear their point, I'd say the same. Icehorse it wasn't aimed at you, sorry about that

I don't have a problem with people criticising orthodox Islam, then making a point against the ban on alcohol, the death penalty, the ban on proselytising to Muslims in an Islamic state, stoning to death for adultery etc
But the niqab, death for apostasy, blasphemy and homosexuality, the ban on women driving, FGM, all non-muslims going to hell etc are not agreed upon within Islam, so I think it's just misleading to treat it as a monolithic religion, rather than saying Salafism or whatever school of thought or sect you're talking about

 

[icehorse]

Sorry guys but it didn't feel like a proper debate from my point of view, I'm not even a Muslim. If somebody came on here and said something like "Jews think they're better than gentiles and killed Jesus" without any further explanation or trying to make clear their point, I'd say the same. Icehorse it wasn't aimed at you, sorry about that

I don't have a problem with people criticising orthodox Islam, then making a point against the ban on alcohol, the death penalty, the ban on proselytising to Muslims in an Islamic state, stoning to death for adultery etc
But the niqab, death for apostasy, blasphemy and homosexuality, the ban on women driving, FGM, all non-muslims going to hell etc are not agreed upon within Islam, so I think it's just misleading to treat it as a monolithic religion, rather than saying Salafism or whatever school of thought or sect you're talking about

Hey AR, Don't worry, I don't take any offense, it's a debate forum

I will say I find the "not monolithic" argument a bit evasive (I've heard it often, btw). If this was the case, then it wouldn't be fair to say that any argument "offends Muslims". That is eating your cake and having it too. I'd also say that if a substantial percentage of the Muslim world believes and behaves in a similar way, then even if it's not 100%, we have to still be able to label such beliefs and behaviors as "Islamic". The FGM example is a good one. This is a problem that occurs from West Africa through to Indonesia. The overlap between high occurrence of FGM and countries with large Muslim populations is high. The number of cultures and geographic regions is high. It strikes me that the common thread for this problem is Islam. That's just following the data. And while it might not specifically be a command in Islamic scripture, such practices (FGM), are consistent with parsimonious interpretations of the scripture.

 

[Agnostic Religiophile]

Icehorse I largely agree with you regarding FGM, in Shafi fiqh it is obligatory and always has been so in Somalia and Indonesia that would explain it. But in Egypt for example, it is forbidden by Hanafis and always has been, the Hanafis have been dominate in Egypt for the past 500 years at least and today make up about 80% of Muslims in Egypt. Although 50% of people in Egypt believe it to be a religious requirement I don't know who has wrongly told them that, this should change to 17% of people. The Al-Azhar have tried and many other scholars Imams etc have, as well as NGOs to combat this myth (in the case of Egypt). I believe in Egypt it will change slowly over time.

So my point is I can explain Somalia and Indonesia but not Egypt (the only reason being the culture I guess - for most)

 

[Muffled]

This video is a little more personal than my others, but I feel like I need to get this off my chest as it's something I've been walking around with for a long time.
Coming out as an ex Muslim is something that many people compare to coming out as gay in the 70's. Apostasy is a crime in every theocracy remaining, and Muslim apostates face threats, torture, and discrimination in those countries for their entire lives.
Today, I want to talk to y'all about my experience with Islam, and how I was able to finally escape it. Hope you enjoy.

I believe your reasons for leaving Islam are inadequate. I believe you still will have to deal with the issue of God and sin. The teaching of Jesus is that you overcome sin by having Him as Lord and Savior.

 

[Muffled]

I just watched this video...

I must say that I never have seen anyone who claim to be an ex Muslim really criticizing the Islamic belief system and the foundations of the Islamic overall system...

They tend to be unhappy about some Islamic Laws that they don't like...

As this video is!

Its message is that: I am not happy about the Islamic law regarding apostasy, and that is why i will apostate!

The message in this video is not consistent ...it is clear that it was put by an outsider from the religion of Islam...

He claim that at the beginning he was not happy about Islam..then he read about evolution(?!) ..and then he re-read Islam and because of terrorism he left Islam and is calling for Islam to be reformed!

This is surely not a Saudi mentality...

And finally, we must say that Islam has many sects and schools, and most of the victims of the "Islamic" terrorism are Muslims...

Shia In particular are the first target of the terrorists.

I believe there is no law of God saying to kill apostates or to treat people badly for minor infractions. I believe these things are made up by the evil in men's hearts.

 

[Muffled]

For what it is worth, the video has a single audio narration in the first person. The video proper is a montage from various thematically-chosen other videos. The narrator himself is never shown in the video.

Although I must say, this matter of he not "being real" sure unsettles me.

I believe someone fearing persecution would be wise not to show himself in the video. I believe the video was and narration was not slick enough to appear contrived.

 

[LuisDantas]

I agree.

 

[icehorse]

Icehorse I largely agree with you regarding FGM, in Shafi fiqh it is obligatory and always has been so in Somalia and Indonesia that would explain it. But in Egypt for example, it is forbidden by Hanafis and always has been, the Hanafis have been dominate in Egypt for the past 500 years at least and today make up about 80% of Muslims in Egypt. Although 50% of people in Egypt believe it to be a religious requirement I don't know who has wrongly told them that, this should change to 17% of people. The Al-Azhar have tried and many other scholars Imams etc have, as well as NGOs to combat this myth (in the case of Egypt). I believe in Egypt it will change slowly over time.

So my point is I can explain Somalia and Indonesia but not Egypt (the only reason being the culture I guess - for most)

And I'm not trying to oversimplify the situation. I think that FGM is widespread due to several factors. But it seems clear to me that Islam itself is one of those factors. What we frequently hear in the world, is all sorts of obfuscating arguments that attempt to completely dissociate Islam from FGM, and that's both disingenuous and dangerous.

 

[Agnostic Religiophile]

And I'm not trying to oversimplify the situation. I think that FGM is widespread due to several factors. But it seems clear to me that Islam itself is one of those factors. What we frequently hear in the world, is all sorts of obfuscating arguments that attempt to completely dissociate Islam from FGM, and that's both disingenuous and dangerous.

Yes it is disingenuous to say FGM isn't Islamic, they is no such thing as "Islamic" in my eyes, only different interpretations (some that I personally see as more correct than others)

The point I was trying to make really is that 80+% of Muslims in Egypt follow the hanafi madhab, FGM is classed as forbidden in the hanafi madhab. 87% of Egyptian girls have undergone FGM. They are aware of this, the Al-Azhar is highly influential in Egypt and they have condemned it publicly. My point being that Egyptians are aware it is religiously forbidden under their interpretation but they still do it, so it must be a cultural practice that has never died out (for 83% of Egyptians)

I'm simply stating that to blame Islam as a factor in Somalia and Indonesia is correct, to blame Islam in Egypt as a factor is incorrect (for 83%). It is wrong to say that "Islam" (as if it has one interpretation), is the problem.

 

[NewChapter]

This video is a little more personal than my others, but I feel like I need to get this off my chest as it's something I've been walking around with for a long time.
Coming out as an ex Muslim is something that many people compare to coming out as gay in the 70's. Apostasy is a crime in every theocracy remaining, and Muslim apostates face threats, torture, and discrimination in those countries for their entire lives.
Today, I want to talk to y'all about my experience with Islam, and how I was able to finally escape it. Hope you enjoy.

A problem for me with Islam is that it teaches wife-beating:

Another problem is that it teaches that "men are a degree above women."

Lastly, it teaches that "marriage is half of faith."

These are three reasons why I see myself as not having anything to do with Islam anytime soon.