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Why I don't 'support our troops' (and why no religious person should)

A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
“Blessed be the Lord my Rock, who trains my hands for war, and my fingers for battle – my lovingkindness and my fortress, my high tower and my deliverer, my shield and the One in whom I take refuge, who subdues my people under me.” (Psalm 144:1)....

Respectfully, I disagree.

Remember Psalm 137:

7 Remember, O LORD, what the Edomites did
on the day Jerusalem fell.
"Tear it down," they cried,
"tear it down to its foundations!"

8 O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction,
happy is he who repays you
for what you have done to us- 9 he who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks
.

The good soldier is a model for good in the NT, but the indifference to earthly kingdoms (made by war) in favor of the kingdom of God (explained in terms of war) lead early Christians to exclude themselves from military service and not to admit soldiers into their churches without an extended time of repentance. The good soldier - the one who obeys and the good commander who is respectful and generous points more toward the goodness and terrors of God rather than a call to arms.
 

silvermoon383

Well-Known Member
I think Shepherd Book said it best:

Zoe: "Preacher, don't the Bible have some pretty specific things to say about killing?

Book: "Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps."
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Does the title not read "Why I don't 'support our troops' (and why no religious person should)"? That alone implies that people not agreeing with the premise and the contents of the OP are not religious in the eyes of the original poster.

No it doesn't. If what you were saying was true, then he wouldn't be addressing anyone at all. In fact, he calls them 'religious' first, and then makes a claim why doesn't shouldn't 'support the troops'.


Oh, that's my fault, I thought we were talking about Christianity..


As for point 3, why would I NOT resist evil? Pacifism is a noble path, but not one that I think I could follow, particularly in the face of evil.

Well, I think what the OP is getting at, is that this 'war' that the 'troops' are fighting isn't self-defense, but as aggressor. At least with such a strong duality of perception, anyone fighting American troops thinks they are doing the exact same thing as the Christian solider.
 

Duck

Well-Known Member
No it doesn't. If what you were saying was true, then he wouldn't be addressing anyone at all. In fact, he calls them 'religious' first, and then makes a claim why doesn't shouldn't 'support the troops'.



Oh, that's my fault, I thought we were talking about Christianity..




Well, I think what the OP is getting at, is that this 'war' that the 'troops' are fighting isn't self-defense, but as aggressor. At least with such a strong duality of perception, anyone fighting American troops thinks they are doing the exact same thing as the Christian solider.

I think that I am reading the title of the thread differently than you. I read it ETA: particularly the part in parenthesis in the title as implying that support for the military (regardless of the nature (as aggressor) of this particular war) is incompatible with being religious. What I am trying to say is that there are religions and religious people which don't have any particular requirements to 'turn the other cheek' or behave in a pacifistic way. The implication of the title, to me, dismisses out of hand persons falling within that criteria, and that is what I was chiding the original poster for when I first posted. To me his post also seemed to assume that christianity was the only religion that counted. That also riled me up somewhat. Apparently, I read these things differently than you did.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
I think that I am reading the title of the thread differently than you. I read it ETA: particularly the part in parenthesis in the title as implying that support for the military (regardless of the nature (as aggressor) of this particular war) is incompatible with being religious. What I am trying to say is that there are religions and religious people which don't have any particular requirements to 'turn the other cheek' or behave in a pacifistic way. The implication of the title, to me, dismisses out of hand persons falling within that criteria, and that is what I was chiding the original poster for when I first posted. To me his post also seemed to assume that christianity was the only religion that counted. That also riled me up somewhat. Apparently, I read these things differently than you did.

That may be fair enough, but the title in and of itself suggests that there are religious people who do 'support the troops', and that an argument is coming up why a religious person shouldn't 'support the troops'.

Granted, I don't think he had the Heathens in mind, nor Kemetics, etc. in mind when he made the OP.

To some degree, Christianity is the only religion in America that matters, seeing how it's the only one capable of heavily effecting politics.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
You actually think Psalms and taking on the armor of God should be taken literally?:facepalm:

NO - why would you assume that I think that?

I have to wonder why you ignored the PLETHORA of scriptures I posted on the topics of warfare, soldiering, etc, and instead threw a crazy question out based on one verse I posted.

My point in posting such a wide variety of scriptures was to give an idea of the various ways that these topics are discussed in the Bible.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Respectfully, I disagree.

The good soldier is a model for good in the NT, but the indifference to earthly kingdoms (made by war) in favor of the kingdom of God (explained in terms of war) lead early Christians to exclude themselves from military service and not to admit soldiers into their churches without an extended time of repentance. The good soldier - the one who obeys and the good commander who is respectful and generous points more toward the goodness and terrors of God rather than a call to arms.

Some early Christians may have excluded military from their congregations, but it was hardly a blanket edict.

Besides that, I'm not as concerned about early church practice as I am about the topics of war and soldiering as addressed in the Bible. I believe it is clear that neither war nor being a soldier or centurion are forbidden, or even discouraged, in the Old or New Testaments.

Not only that - good soldiers are held up as role models in the bible.
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
Some early Christians may have excluded military from their congregations, but it was hardly a blanket edict.

Besides that, I'm not as concerned about early church practice as I am about the topics of war and soldiering as addressed in the Bible. I believe it is clear that neither war nor being a soldier or centurion are forbidden, or even discouraged, in the Old or New Testaments.

Not only that - good soldiers are held up as role models in the bible.

And we haven't progressed beyond that tribal mindset, our society still glorifies war and views soldiers as heroes.
 

kai

ragamuffin
Some early Christians may have excluded military from their congregations, but it was hardly a blanket edict.

Besides that, I'm not as concerned about early church practice as I am about the topics of war and soldiering as addressed in the Bible. I believe it is clear that neither war nor being a soldier or centurion are forbidden, or even discouraged, in the Old or New Testaments.

Not only that - good soldiers are held up as role models in the bible.

And we haven't progressed beyond that tribal mindset, our society still glorifies war and views soldiers as heroes.

maybe? just maybe the old and new testaments have had an influence on that tribal thinking?
 

blackout

Violet.
That may be fair enough, but the title in and of itself suggests that there are religious people who do 'support the troops', and that an argument is coming up why a religious person shouldn't 'support the troops'.

Granted, I don't think he had the Heathens in mind, nor Kemetics, etc. in mind when he made the OP.

To some degree, Christianity is the only religion in America that matters, seeing how it's the only one capable of heavily effecting politics.


Isn't that special.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Some early Christians may have excluded military from their congregations, but it was hardly a blanket edict.

Besides that, I'm not as concerned about early church practice as I am about the topics of war and soldiering as addressed in the Bible. I believe it is clear that neither war nor being a soldier or centurion are forbidden, or even discouraged, in the Old or New Testaments.

Not only that - good soldiers are held up as role models in the bible.

Respectfully, I believe that you're wrong about this.

You are making a significant error in interpreting these Scriptures. As I pointed out earlier, the whole point of the NT is the establishment of a heavenly kingdom rather than an earthly one. On top of this, all of the Christians who interpreted and preserved the texts of the OT and NT for Christian use did not use the Scriptures that you cite as a justification or glorification of soldiers or war. In fact, they have unanimously done the opposite.

I've pointed out how your interpretation of the Scriptures regarding war and soldiers is incorrect, and all of the early Christians prohibited soldiers from membership, and to become a soldier while a member of a church meant exclusion from the fellowship.

I don't think that you can find a single example of Christians supporting soldiers until Constantine.

For books and articles on how to interpret the NT passages concerning this topic, as well as early Christian interpretation of war, see http://www.emu.edu/cjp/spi/readings/PAX-559-reading-3-Megivern-on-military.pdf
 
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Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I've pointed out how your interpretation of the Scriptures regarding war and soldiers is incorrect.

Respectfully, I believe that you're wrong about this.

You are making a significant error in interpreting these Scriptures.

I respect your right to your opinion, but please bear in mind that it is just that - your opinion. You may share this opinion with other people, but there are many other scholars and historians who would not share this same opinion with you, and for every factoid that you pull out - they'd have one supporting their opposing view.

...all of the Christians who interpreted and preserved the texts of the OT and NT for Christian use did not use the Scriptures that you cite as a justification or glorification of soldiers or war. In fact, they have unanimously done the opposite.

Not sure where you're getting this. Let me point something historical out: The early church was formed during the Roman occupation of the middle east and most of Europe. Naturally, the early church members would have been suspicious and cautious of anyone who was employed by the Roman government, which was actively persecuting them. Soldiers were employed by the Roman government. The early church was persecuted by a "war machine" and their interpretations of scripture are surely influenced by their fear of the Roman government. Even so, history is full of examples of Roman soldiers and officers who were also members of Christian congregations.


I don't think that you can find a single example of Christians supporting soldiers until Constantine.


all of the early Christians prohibited soldiers from membership, and to become a soldier while a member of a church meant exclusion from the fellowship.

I'd like to see your source(s) supporting your assertion that ALL early church congregations excluded soldiers from their congregations - and I'd like to know where your sources derived their reasons for doing so. Specifically, were their reasons biblical or societal?

I gave several examples in the NT that were positive regarding soldiers - not simply examples of positive statements about armour and defense, but accounts of positive statements about actual, individual soldiers.

I do not see one single reference to soldiers being excluded from congregations in the bible - that is, not because they were soldiers. Like anyone else, individual soldiers can of course be jerks, or exhibit behavior that would bar them from membership in a congregation, but I don't find any biblical support for the assertion that soldiers were excluded from membership in Christian churches simply because they were soldiers.

In Acts 1 we learn of the conversion to christianity of Cornelius, who was a centurion in the Roman army. There is no indication that his conversion included an order or even a suggestion to leave his profession.

The tradition of the Christian Church also records the conversion of the Roman soldier who speared Christ in the side as He hung on the cross. Longinus is said to have converted and was later martyred for his faith. Perhaps his words after Jesus gave up the ghost are a sign of his impending conversion, “Truly this was God’s Son.”

Speaking of the history of the early church:

St Estidus was a Roman soldier who was executed for his Christian faith in ad 60. He had been christened by St Peter.

St Eustace was a Roman general who was executed, along with his wife and children, by Hadrian in ad 118.

St Marcellus of Tangier, a Roman soldier, was executed for his faith in ad 298.

St Mercurius was a Roman officer martyred in ad 250.

St Florian was a general of the Roman Imperial Army and was executed for his faith in ad 304.

St Martin de Tours was an officer in the Roman army (born in about 316 ad). He served in the military for two years after his baptism into the church.

St Sebastion was an officer in the Praetorium guard (he was executed in 286 ad - pretty "early church" I'd say). In fact, he's the patron saint of the Swiss guard and the Spanish national police force.

The 40 martyrs of Sebaste are a famous example of Roman soldiers who preferred to be executed rather than deny Christ. The Eastern army of Licinius had resolved to ‘purge his army of all Christians” and forced sacrifice and apostasy.

St Agathius is the patron saint of soldiers and was a Roman soldier himself. He was executed for his Christian faith in 303 ad.

St Adrian was a Herculian guard and roman soldier and was martyred for his Christian faith in 306 ad.

St Crescentinus was a Roman soldier and is depicted as a "warrior saint." He was executed for his Christian faith in 303 ad.

St Demetrius was a Roman soldier who was martyred for his faith in the early 4th century as well.


St Basil placed on all returning soldiers who had been involved in active wars to abstain from Holy Communion for three years as a penitent. This confirms the Orthodox ideal that ‘killing always involves sin’ even legitimate/legal state approved wars or executions. However, it shows grace that killing in war and executions is -not- to be called ‘murder’ which is referred to in the Ten Commandments “Thou shall not murder.” Yet again, if the Christian had involved himself in denying Christ or sacrificing to Roman idols in order to gain military service again he was imposed a most severe 13 years ban from Holy Communion and could only be re-admitted before that time at the point of imminent death.

However, you see that even these soldiers were not excommunicated or banned from church membership or fellowship.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Some early Christians may have excluded military from their congregations, but it was hardly a blanket edict.

Besides that, I'm not as concerned about early chu34rch practice as I am about the topics of war and soldiering as addressed in the Bible. I believe it is clear that neither war nor being a soldier or centurion are forbidden, or even discouraged, in the Old or New Testaments.

Not only that - good soldiers are held up as role models in the bible.
IMO, it mainly does this metaphorically. The New Testament also uses the metaphor of treasure to describe reward in Heaven, but at the same time speaks out rather strongly against against earthly riches.

Personally, while I acknowledge that there are some passages that can be used to support your argument, I still can't reconcile it with the message of, for example, Matthew 6:25-34. If you're supposed to trust in God for all things and not worry even for the necessities of life, then what possible motive could you ever have to go to war? Won't God provide you and everyone else with everything you truly need?

I respect your right to your opinion, but please bear in mind that it is just that - your opinion. You may share this opinion with other people, but there are many other scholars and historians who would not share this same opinion with you, and for every factoid that you pull out - they'd have one supporting their opposing view.
Seeing how he's a PhD candidate studying the history of early Christian communities specifically (right, angellous?), when it comes to this matter, I'm personally inclined to give his opinion more weight than yours.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Seeing how he's a PhD candidate studying the history of early Christian communities specifically (right, angellous?), when it comes to this matter, I'm personally inclined to give his opinion more weight than yours.

Yes.

I was talking about religious leaders and their texts. Some congregations did allow soldiers as long as they did not kill.
 
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