Why I don't 'support our troops' (and why no religious person should)

[prometheuspan]

They are not "victims" they are not "stuck in the machine" they are not "scapegoats".

They willingly knowingly put themselves in their positions.

They went out of their way to become part of the machine.
They desired to be a part of the machine.

willingly?

how can you call mass hypnosis and social conditioning willing?

knowingly? if you knew what i know about public education you wouldn't say things like that.

I will make it very simple. Your civilization has systemic problems. any one persons problems are only a symptom of wider systemic problems. You can't fix a system problem by treating the people; that turns into oh yes bureaucracy and then accidental fascism.

The overcaste pits people against each other via these assorted 101 issues
and paradigms.

Us fighting over it is us not seeing the connections and falling into the trap of fighting instead of building something together.

whatever else you may think or believe; those are human beings trapped in a matrix and only your right action not demonization of them can ever help the situation and that means you must see them as clients; not demons;
or your game is over before its even started.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

They are doing it to support their families, a lot of them are. Jobs are hard to find now, and I can't blame them for the decisions our government makes.

 

[kai]

at the end of the day if you don't support your own troops ,then that's up to you isn't it ,your entitled to support or not support , that's your right, a right that people have fought and died for ,so use it. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it

 

[linwood]

willingly?

Yes, willingly.
Ignorance is not an excuse in this day and age.

how can you call mass hypnosis and social conditioning willing?

Mass hypnosis?
I think you`ll need to supply some evidence to support such an accusation.
As far as social conditioning goes I and millions of others seem to have been able to see beyond it.

knowingly? if you knew what i know about public education you wouldn't say things like that.

Yes, knowingly.
I`m more than aware of how public education conditions our children when it`s not directly confronted.
Again, ignorance is no excuse in this day and age.

I will make it very simple. Your civilization has systemic problems. any one persons problems are only a symptom of wider systemic problems. You can't fix a system problem by treating the people; that turns into oh yes bureaucracy and then accidental fascism.

Agreed, but the people don`t have to voluntarily play the game if they don`t want to.
Many of us don`t.

whatever else you may think or believe; those are human beings trapped in a matrix and only your right action not demonization of them can ever help the situation and that means you must see them as clients; not demons;
or your game is over before its even started.

Whatever else you think these human beings trapped themselves when they signed their conscience away on the dotted line.
You cannot get around the fact that they "Volunteered"

It`s really that simple.

They are doing it to support their families, a lot of them are. Jobs are hard to find now, and I can't blame them for the decisions our government makes.

I`m not blaming them for the decisions our government makes.
I`m blaming them for trusting our government.

It doesn`t matter where you are raised in this culture you are taught not to trust the government when considering even insignificant things.
Why trust them when considering war?

 

[Kathryn]

I was thinking about responding to some of the posts here, but after reading through all the diatribe, I just feel too tired to do so.

People need to quit basing their ideas of our military on Hollywood's versions, that's for sure.

 

[zaph'nath-paan'eah]

Peace be upon you.

If you are walking in Christ it do not matter if more anti-christ are in the world.

Millions of Godly living people died with Hitler and Musulini but they will leave in Christ after resurrection.

Revelation 20:1-27
6.Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:

ON SUCH THE SECOND DEATH HATH NO POWER, BUT THEY SHALL BE PRIEST OF GOD AND OF CHRIST, AND SHALL REIGN WITH HIM A THOUSAND YEARS.

5. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION.

Revelation 14:1-20

13. AND I HEAR A VOICE FROM HEAVEN SAYING UNTO ME, WRITE :

BLESSED ARE THE DEAD WHICH DIED IN THE LORD FROM HENCEFORTH:

YEA, SAITH THE SPIRIT, THAT THEY MAY REST FROM THEIR LABORS:

AND THEIR WORK DO FOLLOW THEM.

 

[JMorris]

I was thinking about responding to some of the posts here, but after reading through all the diatribe, I just feel too tired to do so.

People need to quit basing their ideas of our military on Hollywood's versions, that's for sure.

agreed. their certainly not all the selfless heroes their portrayed as.

 

[Kathryn]

agreed. their certainly not all the selfless heroes their portrayed as.

Some of them are and some of them aren't. The issue I have is with the generalities and propagandized stereotypes of soldiers, both overly positive and overly negative.

Each soldier brings with him (or her) their own individual strengths and weaknesses, and their own moral compass. American soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen are not required to check any of those at the door.

I've lived my entire life surrounded by active duty military personnel. Sure there are some jerks in the military. Sure there are some people who cannot handle the stress of military service or the military lifestyle. But in my extensive experience with our military for the past 48 years(military brat, wife, and now mother), I have found that overall, military service tends to improve most people over time.

Career military members offer a better picture of these effects than 21 year old single soldiers. ANY group of college age people let loose on the world with money in their pockets, a stressful day job, and no family responsibilities will tend to raise hell both off and on the clock. And unfortunately, those individuals often "define" the term "soldier" in many people's minds. Not that they can't or don't act responsibly - because they certainly can.

Our military is made up of individuals, who are allowed to remain individuals and to think for themselves and express themselves. That being said, the military also teaches the importance of discipline, teamwork, selflessness, and respect for leadership and experience. It's a fine balance that comes more naturally as a soldier matures.

 

[seraphim81]

I'm a little torn between supporting our troops and not supporting them. However, I will NEVER support the war. I think it is a waste of time and not really getting us anywhere.

 

[logician]

Joining the military does not automatically elevate one to sainthood.

Also, there are several other occupations more dangerous than being a soldier, in percent of people killed. Soldiers are trained to become callous to the act of killing other people. That's their job.

 

[Mr Cheese]

maybe if the troops did nudey calendars we could support them better

especially the female officers if they had small boobs

 

[Gunfingers]

That post looks awfully familiar...

Edit: Talking about logician, not cheese. Lousy ninjas!

 

[Mr Cheese]

Peace be upon you.

If you are walking in Christ it do not matter if more anti-christ are in the world.

Millions of Godly living people died with Hitler and Musulini but they will leave in Christ after resurrection.

Revelation 20:1-27
6.Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:

ON SUCH THE SECOND DEATH HATH NO POWER, BUT THEY SHALL BE PRIEST OF GOD AND OF CHRIST, AND SHALL REIGN WITH HIM A THOUSAND YEARS.

5. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION.

Revelation 14:1-20

13. AND I HEAR A VOICE FROM HEAVEN SAYING UNTO ME, WRITE :

BLESSED ARE THE DEAD WHICH DIED IN THE LORD FROM HENCEFORTH:

YEA, SAITH THE SPIRIT, THAT THEY MAY REST FROM THEIR LABORS:

AND THEIR WORK DO FOLLOW THEM.

great post~!

Remind me to put my nadgers in a blender tonight

 

[Mr Cheese]

Joining the military does not automatically elevate one to sainthood.

Also, there are several other occupations more dangerous than being a soldier, in percent of people killed. Soldiers are trained to become callous to the act of killing other people. That's their job.

Its the 21st century..I suspect they have drugs in their food too prolly

 

[Duck]

I will put an exception right at the top of this post. If you're drafted, most of what I say here does not apply.

Why support a volunteer soldier?

I've been faced with this question quite a bit coming to age in the Bush years. The conclusion that I've finally landed on is, there is no reason.

A volunteer soldier signs up to be an agent of the state's war machine. In doing so, he/she allows the state to demand him/her to kill another human being. Questioning said authority is a crime, and is understood to be so when the soldier signs on the dotted (or is it solid) line. I don't believe that an individual soldier is responsible for the greater evil of said war machine, but the willingness to do exactly what that entity demands nullifies their innocence. In the modern war era, the soldier is aware of what he/she is getting into. With the abundance of media the terrors of war can actually be seen with merely a click of the mouse. The days of soldiers not knowing exactly what they are getting into are over.

Most major religions have a rule against murder as a top priority, but it seems that their followers take the 'patriotic' stance of 'murdering one person is a bad thing, but murder in mass for the sake of [national security/protecting national business interests/protecting culture] is required and in some cases God's will. This is contradictory to the very ethics of the religions of these 'patriots'.

Being in the United States, I am surrounded by Christian war-culture, but I have yet to hear a solid argument for what I hear termed a 'just war'. It is simple:
If killing is wrong in one case, it is wrong in all cases.

So, from the title of the thread I take it that people whose religions have no particular prohibitions against warfare are not religious? I personally take exception, and resent the implications of, your title. I realize that Heathenry is a minority religion, in part due to the militant actions of past christians (granted, a 1000+ years ago), but to imply that one is 'not religious' if one is not a pacifist or for that matter a christian is blatantly insulting.

 

[dust1n]

So, from the title of the thread I take it that people whose religions have no particular prohibitions against warfare are not religious?

The title does not say that.

I personally take exception, and resent the implications of, your title. I realize that Heathenry is a minority religion, in part due to the militant actions of past christians (granted, a 1000+ years ago), but to imply that one is 'not religious' if one is not a pacifist or for that matter a christian is blatantly insulting.

1.) No one implied that.

2.) 1000+ years ago? :biglaugh: Did you forget the last 1000 years of history?

3.) But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

 

[Kathryn]

3.) But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

“Blessed be the Lord my Rock, who trains my hands for war, and my fingers for battle – my lovingkindness and my fortress, my high tower and my deliverer, my shield and the One in whom I take refuge, who subdues my people under me.” (Psalm 144:1)


“It is God who arms me with strength, and makes my way perfect. He makes my feet like the feet of deer, and sets me on high places. He teaches my hands to make war, so that my arms can bend a bow of bronze … I have pursued my enemies and overtaken them; neither did I turn back again till they were destroyed. I have wounded them, so that they were not able to rise; they have fallen under my feet. For You have armed me with strength for the battle; You have subdued under me those who rose up against me.” (Psalm 18:32,37)

“The Lord is a man of war; the Lord is His name … Your Right Hand, O Lord, has become glorious in power; Your right hand, O Lord, has dashed the enemy in pieces. And in the greatness of Your excellence you have overthrown those who rose against You; You sent forth Your wrath which consumed them like stubble.” (Exodus 15:3,6)

Many Roman soldiers and centurions in the New Testament are praised for their character, and there are no instances in which their career is critisized or they are encouraged to leave their careers as soldiers:

Matthew 8:5-13

When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6 “Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed and in terrible suffering.”

7 Jesus said to him, “I will go and heal him.”
8 The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
10 When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, “I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! It will be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that very hour.

Luke 7:
7 When Jesus had finished saying all this in the hearing of the people, he entered Capernaum. 2 There a centurion’s servant, whom his master valued highly, was sick and about to die. 3 The centurion heard of Jesus and sent some elders of the Jews to him, asking him to come and heal his servant. 4 When they came to Jesus, they pleaded earnestly with him, “This man deserves to have you do this, 5 because he loves our nation and has built our synagogue.” 6 So Jesus went with them.
He was not far from the house when the centurion sent friends to say to him: “Lord, don’t trouble yourself, for I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. 7 That is why I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. 8 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
9 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, “I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel.” 10 Then the men who had been sent returned to the house and found the servant well.

Acts 10:
10 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. 2 He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly. 3 One day at about three in the afternoon he had a vision. He distinctly saw an angel of God, who came to him and said, “Cornelius!”
4 Cornelius stared at him in fear. “What is it, Lord?” he asked.
The angel answered, “Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God. 5 Now send men to Joppa to bring back a man named Simon who is called Peter. 6 He is staying with Simon the tanner, whose house is by the sea.”
7 When the angel who spoke to him had gone, Cornelius called two of his servants and a devout soldier who was one of his attendants. 8 He told them everything that had happened and sent them to Joppa.

Finally - Ephesians 6 - the imagery of a soldier is hard to miss - or dismiss - and is certainly not derogatory.

10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.
​

 

[sandandfoam]

Hi Kathryn,
I imagine there's an argument that when Christianity became the religion of empire it was necessary for it to accomodate imperialistic war.
Disentangling the influence of empire from Christianity I imagine is an impossible task. The evidence is that individually we can construct a Christianity that either embraces or rejects violence.
I imagine that argument is not one which can be settled but I choose the latter. Not a more valid choice, but my choice.

 

[Mr Cheese]

“Blessed be the Lord my Rock, who trains my hands for war, and my fingers for battle – my lovingkindness and my fortress, my high tower and my deliverer, my shield and the One in whom I take refuge, who subdues my people under me.” (Psalm 144:1)


“It is God who arms me with strength, and makes my way perfect. He makes my feet like the feet of deer, and sets me on high places. He teaches my hands to make war, so that my arms can bend a bow of bronze … I have pursued my enemies and overtaken them; neither did I turn back again till they were destroyed. I have wounded them, so that they were not able to rise; they have fallen under my feet. For You have armed me with strength for the battle; You have subdued under me those who rose up against me.” (Psalm 18:32,37)

“The Lord is a man of war; the Lord is His name … Your Right Hand, O Lord, has become glorious in power; Your right hand, O Lord, has dashed the enemy in pieces. And in the greatness of Your excellence you have overthrown those who rose against You; You sent forth Your wrath which consumed them like stubble.” (Exodus 15:3,6)

Many Roman soldiers and centurions in the New Testament are praised for their character, and there are no instances in which their career is critisized or they are encouraged to leave their careers as soldiers:

Matthew 8:5-13

When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6 “Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed and in terrible suffering.”

7 Jesus said to him, “I will go and heal him.”
8 The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
10 When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, “I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! It will be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that very hour.​

Luke 7:
7 When Jesus had finished saying all this in the hearing of the people, he entered Capernaum. 2 There a centurion’s servant, whom his master valued highly, was sick and about to die. 3 The centurion heard of Jesus and sent some elders of the Jews to him, asking him to come and heal his servant. 4 When they came to Jesus, they pleaded earnestly with him, “This man deserves to have you do this, 5 because he loves our nation and has built our synagogue.” 6 So Jesus went with them.
He was not far from the house when the centurion sent friends to say to him: “Lord, don’t trouble yourself, for I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. 7 That is why I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. 8 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
9 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, “I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel.” 10 Then the men who had been sent returned to the house and found the servant well.​

Acts 10:
10 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. 2 He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly. 3 One day at about three in the afternoon he had a vision. He distinctly saw an angel of God, who came to him and said, “Cornelius!”
4 Cornelius stared at him in fear. “What is it, Lord?” he asked.
The angel answered, “Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God. 5 Now send men to Joppa to bring back a man named Simon who is called Peter. 6 He is staying with Simon the tanner, whose house is by the sea.”
7 When the angel who spoke to him had gone, Cornelius called two of his servants and a devout soldier who was one of his attendants. 8 He told them everything that had happened and sent them to Joppa.​

Finally - Ephesians 6 - the imagery of a soldier is hard to miss - or dismiss - and is certainly not derogatory.​

10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.​

You actually think Psalms and taking on the armor of God should be taken literally?

The Mahabharata, ancient blue skinned indians with bows, arrows and flying chariots...how their tale relates to perpetual war...and really isnt a spiritual epic of the soul........NEXT on Oprah

 

[Duck]

The title does not say that.



1.) No one implied that.

2.) 1000+ years ago? :biglaugh: Did you forget the last 1000 years of history?

3.) But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Does the title not read "Why I don't 'support our troops' (and why no religious person should)"? That alone implies that people not agreeing with the premise and the contents of the OP are not religious in the eyes of the original poster.

As for point 2 and my reference of 1000+ years ago:

Timeline of Icelandic history - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Olaf I of Norway - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Admittedly Wiki is not the most authoritative of sources, but accurate as far as I can tell (agreeing with most other sources I have seen). So, for the Heathen (aka Norse Pagan, Asatru, Troth etc) some of the more important dates regarding christian militancy fall just over 1000 years ago with the conversion of Olaf I of Norway (and the subsequent 'convert or die' mentality adopted by Olaf and his followers), and the nearly concurrent vote in the Icelandic Althing to officially convert to christianity (in order to continue trade relationships with the now christian europe).

As for point 3, why would I NOT resist evil? Pacifism is a noble path, but not one that I think I could follow, particularly in the face of evil.