Why I CANNOT Believe in The Resurrection

[sojourner]

First.. the bible isn't composed of one source.. the new testament is a collection of the documented evidence available to the community forming it at the time.. If one takes all the historical accounts from those who witness and put them in one book called the bible.. then obviously you won't find any elsewhere.. the thing is.. people who really witnessed it.. became Christian, and the best of their documented accounts became the new testament..

it's like if someone had plenty of evidence that Joebob committed the murder.. and the defense says: isn't there any evidence outside of what the prosecution has? I can't trust it if they are the only source.. but the prosecution isn't the source.. it's just organizing the sources.. the evidence was collected from multiple sources and compiled in one place for convenience..

So the entire concept of there being a lack of evidence outside the bible is just MORONIC .. only someone that doesn't think things through and investigate would draw such a brain-dead conclusion that there is a lack of sources just because we put all the best ones together in a book.

So yes.. it's hard to find evidence outside of the main stack of collection of evidence.. yeah. know.. cause that's where mankind makes an effort to keep it.. all together in one book called the bible.. why is it surprising that most the evidence is where we actually try to keep it??

“Most” is not the same as “all.” Scholars look for evidence that corroborates the biblical collection, because the biblical collection was frankly biased. And “what made it into the Bible” isn’t always automatically the “best.” In fact, the biblical canon isn’t what most folks have been taught. It’s not the standard of “what’s inspired,” it’s the standard of “stuff that’s OK to read in church.” That means that there may be lots of extra-biblical sources that are quite compelling — and they should be consulted. Thomas, for example, is a great resource for helping to determine the corpus of Jesus quotes that are authentic.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Yeah, scholars use the abundant manuscripts that mention a Jesus to determine there was somebody behind the gospel character. Remember, though there were thousands of Yeshuas in Palestine at that time. Which one was the real one?

Ha-Nozri, presumably.

 

[sojourner]

I will speak for what I’ve experienced and what God has shown me personally

Who’s going to speak for everyone else of the household of God? What “you’ve experienced” is not the sum total of truth,

What He has done in my life and the reason I’m a believer has nothing to do with what a scholar or anyone else thinks

Good. But what has this to do with what we know about the Bible?

I’ve tested the Word of God for myself and found it true and reliable

But you, yourself, claim to not be a scholar. Therefore, you’re really not in a position to test the texts adequately.

God has proven faithful to me

Great! But this has nothing to do with what the Bible says.

It’s clear to me, but as far as what people communicate on these forums about what the Bible teaches, Gods character, how to tell a believer from a non believer or pretender, a lot of false information and ignorance

It may be clear to you, with limited resources, but its not so clear to those who look with a really critical eye.

 

[sojourner]

But that's just not the case.. The scriptures of the bible are pulled from sources spanning many generations, all working together to create one big complete image.. and if you remove the new testament.. it's missing what the old testament predicts.. The key to seeing the big picture is found in viewing it all through the lens of the teaching Jesus provides in the Gospel.. legitimating the Gospel accounts.. which have multiple sources themself. - then we have the remaining church leadership that Jesus left behind and the accounts of them setting up the church.. and the church histories all come back to that same point that they claim to come from..

Except that the Bible doesn’t “work together to create one complete image.” The Bible isn’t a collage of images that create a bigger image. It’s extremely disparate in scope, theology, culture, literature. It’s a library. The OT doesn’t predict what the NT shows. Just ask any Jew. This just isn’t How It Works.

 

[sojourner]

Being a believer isn’t about theology but a new nature where you walk in the Spirit and not according to the flesh. If a person doesn’t have this change/born again then they aren’t a believer. You can say you’re a Christian all day long but you aren’t until you’re born again.

You speak as if this is a one-time event. But it’s not. it’s process. It’s not about arriving at “heaven.” It’s about journeying through a resurrection life. Those pilgrims “not yet arrived” are Christians. Those who have are “saints.”

 

[ElishaElijah]

Who’s going to speak for everyone else of the household of God? What “you’ve experienced” is not the sum total of truth,


Good. But what has this to do with what we know about the Bible?

But you, yourself, claim to not be a scholar. Therefore, you’re really not in a position to test the texts adequately.

Great! But this has nothing to do with what the Bible says.


It may be clear to you, with limited resources, but its not so clear to those who look with a really critical eye.

It will never be clear to a person until they are born again. You will continue to stumble in the dark. A spiritually blind, spiritually dead person will not be able to understand what the Spirit of God is communicating. You can argue till the end of time, as for me I found a treasure and sold everything and bought the field. I know where I’m going and positive about it.
“Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:2-3‬ ‭NIV‬‬
I think we are living in this time right now.

 

[ElishaElijah]

You speak as if this is a one-time event. But it’s not. it’s process. It’s not about arriving at “heaven.” It’s about journeying through a resurrection life. Those pilgrims “not yet arrived” are Christians. Those who have are “saints.”

Being born again is the beginning where a person passes from death to life, eternal life that I’m living right now with other believers who’ve been born again.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Who’s going to speak for everyone else of the household of God? What “you’ve experienced” is not the sum total of truth,


Good. But what has this to do with what we know about the Bible?

But you, yourself, claim to not be a scholar. Therefore, you’re really not in a position to test the texts adequately.

Great! But this has nothing to do with what the Bible says.


It may be clear to you, with limited resources, but its not so clear to those who look with a really critical eye.

You say I’m not in a position to test the text? God says I am because I have the Holy Spirit who teaches me. That’s who you need to understand the Scriptures.

 

[Colt]

There’s no evidence the original apostles wrote anything— or dictated anything. They lived in an oral transmission culture.

There is no evidence that they didn't either. The writings began after Jesus left which is common sense.

 

[Colt]

What has this to do with the post?

I wasn't asking you but I will, do you even believe in God at all?

 

[sojourner]

It will never be clear to a person until they are born again. You will continue to stumble in the dark. A spiritually blind, spiritually dead person will not be able to understand what the Spirit of God is communicating

But that’s not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about reading the texts critically.

I know where I’m going and positive about it

Me too.

I think we are living in this time right now

We always have been.

Being born again is the beginning where a person passes from death to life, eternal life that I’m living right now with other believers who’ve been born again.

So... you’re on the journey. As I said.

You say I’m not in a position to test the text?

You’re not in a position to read the texts. Testing is another matter completely. You can’t test them until you can read them critically.

God says I am because I have the Holy Spirit who teaches me.

You’re conflating interpretation with critical reading.

That’s who you need to understand the Scriptures.

No, you need critical thinking to understand what’s written. Interpretation (as I said) comes later.

 

[sojourner]

There is no evidence that they didn't either

You ever hear the phrase “pictures, or it didn’t happen?” If there’s no evidence, we assume it didn’t happen. That’s our whole system of jurisprudence, and it carries over into things like anthropology. We make assumptions based on the evidence we have — not on what we want to believe.

 

[sojourner]

I wasn't asking you but I will, do you even believe in God at all?

Why does it matter? However, you can read my description as well as the next person. What does it say? Do you think I’m lying? If so, why would you assume that? “Belief in God” =/= “in possession of the facts at hand.”

 

[ElishaElijah]

But that’s not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about reading the texts critically.


Me too.


We always have been.

So... you’re on the journey. As I said.


You’re not in a position to read the texts. Testing is another matter completely. You can’t test them until you can read them critically.

You’re conflating interpretation with critical reading.


No, you need critical thinking to understand what’s written. Interpretation (as I said) comes later.

Where does the God say use critical thinking to understand what’s written and interpretation comes later?

 

[RestlessSoul]

You ever hear the phrase “pictures, or it didn’t happen?” If there’s no evidence, we assume it didn’t happen. That’s our whole system of jurisprudence, and it carries over into things like anthropology. We make assumptions based on the evidence we have — not on what we want to believe.

Who is this “we” making these assumptions?

 

[sojourner]

Where does the God say use critical thinking to understand what’s written and interpretation comes later?

Where does God say that the texts are written in our own languages and from our own cultural perspectives, without layers of redacting and Amish-mash of beliefs about them having taken place? But that’s what happened. This isn’t about “what God said about the Bible.” It’s about “what the Bible says.”

 

[sojourner]

Who is this “we” making these assumptions?

Anyone who wants to exegete the texts.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Anyone who wants to exegete the texts.

Really? There’s only one way to read and interpret texts? Says who?

 

[Colt]

You ever hear the phrase “pictures, or it didn’t happen?” If there’s no evidence, we assume it didn’t happen. That’s our whole system of jurisprudence, and it carries over into things like anthropology. We make assumptions based on the evidence we have — not on what we want to believe.

Jesus didn't come in a time when pictures were being taken. He left no writings himself. His enemies were trying to make Jesus vanish, they had no interest in preserving a record of his activities or sayings. It appears the apostles thought Jesus would "soon return" to finish the expectations of the Jewish Messiah. So naturally it would be some time before an evolving "church" required the writings for its scripture books.

There is no undeniable proof of God, that's why I asked you if you believed in God.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Where does God say that the texts are written in our own languages and from our own cultural perspectives, without layers of redacting and Amish-mash of beliefs about them having taken place? But that’s what happened. This isn’t about “what God said about the Bible.” It’s about “what the Bible says.”

You sound confused because God gave us the Holy Spirit to lead us in all Truth and teach us.