Why I CANNOT Believe in The Resurrection

[F1fan]

I find the whole resurrection story implausible for a number of reasons. First of all the whole point of it was to pay for the sins of mankind. The payment was the death of the flesh of Jesus, and he was born in the first place to be sacrificed to the God that caused the pregagncy. Let's be aware that the sin is likely the original sin of Adam and Even so the A&E myth has to be true and real for this whole thing to work. And even if it was true the fall of A&E was arguably caused by God itself. If the creator REALLY wanted obedient humans in the Garden wouldn't it have created them with the capacity for obedience? If God had created Buddhist monks they sure as hell would have had the discipline to be obedient to the rules. But God didn't, it made them easily duped by a temptation it put in the Garden. So the Fall, and the resulting sin, was all a set up.

But it doesn't stop there. The sin that came about got way out of hand apparently. It was so bad that God couldn't redeem the people so decided to kill off the whole planet, even animals. The global flood was supposed to cleanse the planet and create a do-over. Do you follow along here, God either didn't foresee the problems his creation would bring or it is cruel and just wanted to drown a lot of people and animals.

So God saves 7 people. The world starts over, but in a pretty dubious moral situation, if you know the Noah story and his daughters. What happens next? Well damn, sin gets going once again. So the flood fixed nothing, and thousands of years later God decides to remedy things by getting a woman pregnant with a miracle child, and this child was destined to be sacrificed to the God for the sins that God created, and couldn't fix.

So what did the resurrection fix? Well apparently not much. As the story goes Jesus was executed, but then came back to life three days later, so where's the actual sacrifice? It sounds like a huge theological bounced check to me. So if Jesus came back to life when did he actually die, I ask because we hear many Christians expecting Jesus' return. Is he on holiday somewhere, or coming back as a whole new person? This is all Rube Goldberg theology, way too complex, and it doesn't really work.

Realistically the resurrection is absurd. There's no causal benefit to believe in "Jesus the savior" because the payoff supposedly comes after death. So the believer can't test this claim unless, well, you die. Who wants to risk that to find out? Coming back to life is not something that humans do (once brain death occurs). So it's not a plausible thing to believe is true. Now is it a miracle? Why is that a miracle but we see children on the planet starving to death, get diagnosed with deadly genetic diseases, suffer in poverty, etc. If a God wants to perform miracles do it in a way that we can observe, shows mercy and morality, and is practical. But on top of that resurrection isn't rare in historical mythic lore. Pagan gods resurrected. Even Lazarus was resurrected, so why is it unique?

I hear Christians insist Jesus is coming back. Why? If Jesus has to come back what was the point of the last 2000 years? If there's something to fix (yet again) why didn't it get fixed then? This whole theology is one where this God just can't get things done right, nor fixed. The resurrection surely looks to be a huge failure as it served no purpose if Jesus has to come back for another service call.

 

[Colt]

This also applies to you since you have no empirical facts to prove it happened as you believe it did.

Of coarse, it was thousands of years ago. That's belief. But you go further and twist what is plainly written (because in truth the Baháʼu'lláh guru guy informs your opinion). It would be a strait forward story to you if you weren't influenced by pessimists that you have faith in.

 

[F1fan]

“So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:16-26‬ ‭NIV‬‬
Being a believer isn’t about theology but a new nature where you walk in the Spirit and not according to the flesh. If a person doesn’t have this change/born again then they aren’t a believer. You can say you’re a Christian all day long but you aren’t until you’re born again.

I would expect this "walk" to be represented by decency and moral ideals, don;'t you agree? If so explain why we see Christians "walking" like they have very weak moral attitudes, and are often literally immoral. You tell us what is wrong with these Christians.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I find the whole resurrection story implausible for a number of reasons. First of all the whole point of it was to pay for the sins of mankind. The payment was the death of the flesh of Jesus, and he was born in the first place to be sacrificed to the God that caused the pregagncy. Let's be aware that the sin is likely the original sin of Adam and Even so the A&E myth has to be true and real for this whole thing to work. And even if it was true the fall of A&E was arguably caused by God itself. If the creator REALLY wanted obedient humans in the Garden wouldn't it have created them with the capacity for obedience? If God had created Buddhism monks they sure as hell would have had the discipline to be obedient to the rules. But God didn't, it made them easily duped by a temptation it put in the Garden. So the Fall, and the resulting sin, was all a set up.

But it doesn't stop there. The sin that came about got way out of hand apparently. It was so bad that God couldn't redeem the people so decided to kill off the whole planet, even animals. The global flood was supposed to cleanse the planet and c create a do-over. Do you follow along here, God either didn't foresee the problems his creation would bring or it is cruel. So God saves 7 people. The world starts over, but in a pretty dubious moral situation, if you know the Noah story and his daughters. What happens next? Well damn, sin gets going once again. So the flood fixed nothing, and thousands of years later God decides to remedy things by getting a woman pregnant with a miracle child, and this child was destined to be sacrificed to the God for the sins that God created, and couldn't fix.

So what did the resurrection fix? Well apparently not much. As the story goes Jesus was executed, but then came back to life three days later, so where's the actual sacrifice? It sounds like a huge theological bounced check to me. So if Jesus came back to life when did he actually die, I ask because we hear many Christians expecting Jesus' return. Is he on holiday somewhere, or coming back as a whole new person? This is all Rube Goldberg theology, way too complex, and it doesn't really work.

Realistically the resurrection is absurd. There's no causal benefit to believe in "Jesus the savior" because the payoff supposedly comes after death. So the believer can't test this claim unless, well, you die. Who wants to risk that to find out? Coming back to life is not something that humans do (once brain death occurs). So it's not a plausible thing to believe is true. Now is it a miracle? Why is that a miracle but we see children on the planet starving to death, get diagnosed with deadly genetic diseases, suffer in poverty, etc. If a God wants to perform miracles do it in a way that we can observe, shows mercy and morality, and is practical. But on top of that resurrection isn't rare in historical mythic lore. Pagan gods resurrected. Even Lazarus was resurrected, so why is it unique?

I hear Christians insist Jesus is coming back. Why? If Jesus has to come back what was the point of the last 2000 years? If there's something to fix (yet again) why didn't it get fixed then? This whole theology is one where this God just can't get things done right, nor fixed. The resurrection surely looks to be a huge failure as it served no purpose if Jesus has to come back for another service call.

And let's not forget the basis for this thread. One has to jump through all sorts hoops to justify the failed prophecies (same prophecy, several gospels) in the OP. Jesus predicted his return in the lifetime of at least some of the disciples. Not back yet, and that was close to 2,000 years ago. Them are some long lived disciples.

 

[Colt]

And let's not forget the basis for this thread. One has to jump through all sorts hoops to justify the failed prophecies (same prophecy, several gospels) in the OP. Jesus predicted his return in the lifetime of at least some of the disciples. Not back yet, and that was close to 2,000 years ago. Them are some long lived disciples.

That's not true, Jesus consistently referred to his kingdom as spiritual and he said his spirit would return to guide believers .Concerning his actual return he said that day was known only in paradise. Atheist consistently misrepresent this section of the Jesus story.

 

[F1fan]

And let's not forget the basis for this thread. One has to jump through all sorts hoops to justify the failed prophecies (same prophecy, several gospels) in the OP. Jesus predicted his return in the lifetime of at least some of the disciples. Not back yet, and that was close to 2,000 years ago. Them are some long lived disciples.

I've seen a list of how many times Christians believed the return was going to happen. It's in the hundreds. the Great Disappointment is probably the most famous. Every generation wants to be special, the last people, the one's to see this theology demonstrated true conclusively. To my mind the desperation for Jesus' return is because the theology is so absurd that they secretly just want verification. They must be suffering huge doubts that they cannot share. OUCH.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That's not true, Jesus consistently referred to his kingdom as spiritual and he said his spirit would return to guide believers .Concerning his actual return he said that day was known only in paradise. Atheist consistently misrepresent this section of the Jesus story.

And this is an example of such jumping through hoops. Where does he claim that his return would be "spiritual"?

You are partially right. He did say that the day of his return was unknown, even to him. He said that only God knew that. Another indicator that Jesus was not God by the way. But I do not know of any verse that claimed that his return would be only spiritual.

 

[sojourner]

Therefore you have no basis to call it myth on the same grounds. You have no empirical facts to discredit it, just an onboard bias.

Sure I do! That’s the type of literature it is. It has nothing to do with whether it contains fact. But since it has all the hallmarks of mythic literature, and there are no corroborating facts to consider, what we can know is that the account is mythic. What we can believe is something else entirely. Does that mean it didn’t happen? No! What it means is that it is a “less likely” scenario.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I've seen a list of how many times Christians believed the return was going to happen. It's in the hundreds. the Great Disappointment is probably the most famous. Every generation wants to be special, the last people, the one's to see this theology demonstrated true conclusively. To my mind the desperation for Jesus' return is because the theology is so absurd that they secretly just want verification. They must be suffering huge doubts that they cannot share. OUCH.

And it is amazing how end of the world predictors can always find a good number of believers. The Jehovah's Witnesses are infamous for their failed predictions. And more recently some of the followers of Harold Camping believed him twice!!

 

[sojourner]

Whereas that is true, what's being said can mean more than one thing.
All scriptures present this problem, not only the Bible.

Of course. Many interpretations are possible from any given exegesis. But the exegesis has to be there first.

 

[Trailblazer]

Of coarse, it was thousands of years ago. That's belief. But you go further and twist what is plainly written (because in truth the Baháʼu'lláh guru guy informs your opinion). It would be a strait forward story to you if you weren't influenced by pessimists that you have faith in.

No, that interpretation was not because I believe in Baha'ul'lah, it was because I believe in logic and rationality, and I know that humans do not come back to life after being dead for days.

And actually, the explanation that sojourner gave you is better than my explanation: "It’s a mythic story about Jesus."
Since sojourner is a Christian you cannot say that he was influenced by Baha'ul'lah.

 

[Colt]

And this is an example of such jumping through hoops. Where does he claim that his return would be "spiritual"?

You are partially right. He did say that the day of his return was unknown, even to him. He said that only God knew that. Another indicator that Jesus was not God by the way. But I do not know of any verse that claimed that his return would be only spiritual.

Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”



16 “All this I have told you so that you will not fall away. 2 They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. 3 They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. 4 I have told you this, so that when their time comes you will remember that I warned you about them. I did not tell you this from the beginning because I was with you, 5 but now I am going to him who sent me. None of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ 6 Rather, you are filled with grief because I have said these things. 7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”



The Holy Spirit Comes at Pentecost

2 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”

13 Some, however, made fun of them and said, “They have had too much wine.”

The return in spirit and the literal future return are 2 different things.



.

 

[ElishaElijah]

I would expect this "walk" to be represented by decency and moral ideals, don;'t you agree? If so explain why we see Christians "walking" like they have very weak moral attitudes, and are often literally immoral. You tell us what is wrong with these Christians.

“This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:5-10‬ ‭NIV‬‬
There is a difference between habitually sinning as a lifestyle and someone who gives in to temptation and repents.

 

[Colt]

Sure I do! That’s the type of literature it is. It has nothing to do with whether it contains fact. But since it has all the hallmarks of mythic literature, and there are no corroborating facts to consider, what we can know is that the account is mythic. What we can believe is something else entirely. Does that mean it didn’t happen? No! What it means is that it is a “less likely” scenario.

It was even a less likely scenario to those who witnessed it according to the story itself. The apostles were demoralized and shocked after the death.............but then comes the resurrection. Trying to apply logic and science to it 2000 years later doesn't work.

What's remarkable is that we believe ANY of it! He is here now, bearing witness to his flock!

 

[Subduction Zone]

Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”



16 “All this I have told you so that you will not fall away. 2 They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. 3 They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. 4 I have told you this, so that when their time comes you will remember that I warned you about them. I did not tell you this from the beginning because I was with you, 5 but now I am going to him who sent me. None of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ 6 Rather, you are filled with grief because I have said these things. 7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”



The Holy Spirit Comes at Pentecost

2 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”

13 Some, however, made fun of them and said, “They have had too much wine.”

The return in spirit and the literal future return are 2 different things.



.

So there is some support, though it takes a skewed interpretation in the most magical of Gospels. In the others, not so much.

Though the verse about Pentecost does not support your claim. At best that was about the Holy Spirit. Not the Jesus part of the Trinity.

 

[Trailblazer]

So what did the resurrection fix? Well apparently not much. As the story goes Jesus was executed, but then came back to life three days later, so where's the actual sacrifice? It sounds like a huge theological bounced check to me.

I love it, bounced check.
So what was the sacrifice if Jesus came back to life? The resurrection spoils the whole thing about the cross sacrifice which I believe has some merit.

So if Jesus came back to life when did he actually die, I ask because we hear many Christians expecting Jesus' return. Is he on holiday somewhere, or coming back as a whole new person?

FYI, Christians do not believe that Jesus ever died after He came back to life. They believe that Jesus ascended into the clouds (Acts 1:9-11) in a glorified physical body and that Jesus will return in the clouds just as he went up. They believe that Jesus has been in heaven for 2000 years and that he plans to come back to earth even though there is not one single verse in the Bible where Jesus says he is coming back.

Obviously, Christians have to believe that the physical body of Jesus rose from the dead and is still alive in heaven on order to entertain the belief that Jesus is coming back to earth, so without the resurrection belief they lose their belief that Jesus is coming back. Do you see how these beliefs are connected?

I hear Christians insist Jesus is coming back. Why? If Jesus has to come back what was the point of the last 2000 years? If there's something to fix (yet again) why didn't it get fixed then?

Jesus does not have to come back and Jesus never said He was coming back. Jesus said that his work was finished here and he was no more in the world, so Jesus did fix what God gave him to fix. The belief that Jesus is "coming back" is just a Christian hope and in order to keep hoping and waiting they have to completely disregard what Jesus actually said:

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

 

[Colt]

So there is some support, though it takes a skewed interpretation in the most magical of Gospels. In the others, not so much.

Though the verse about Pentecost does not support your claim. At best that was about the Holy Spirit. Not the Jesus part of the Trinity.

So there is some support, though it takes a skewed interpretation in the most magical of Gospels. In the others, not so much.

Though the verse about Pentecost does not support your claim. At best that was about the Holy Spirit. Not the Jesus part of the Trinity.

Geeze, I shouldn't have assumed that "Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you." would be "vague"

What they called "the Holy spirit" would be the advocate Jesus promised. Besides, how would they be able to distinguish between the Holy spirit and the comforter???


But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you;

 

[Subduction Zone]

Geeze, I shouldn't have assumed that "Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you." would be "vague"

What they called "the Holy spirit" would be the advocate Jesus promised. Besides, how would they be able to distinguish between the Holy spirit and the comforter???


But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you;

No, the "Holy Spirit" is only your interpretation because it seems to fit. It is hardly an advocate. This is creative reinterpretation.

 

[Colt]

No, the "Holy Spirit" is only your interpretation because it seems to fit. It is hardly an advocate. This is creative reinterpretation.

Ok, fair enough, then what was the "he" that Jesus sent after he was dead?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Ok, fair enough, then what was the "he" that Jesus sent after he was dead?

Who knows? It is really to vague to come up with a solid answer. As worded it would be a person.