Why I CANNOT Believe in The Resurrection

[Trailblazer]

I disagree about that, but then I disagree with the Christians as well. You are all wrong and only I am write . . . oh darn . . right

Right about what?
You don't think you can ever discover the truth by investigating it for yourself?

 

[Trailblazer]

He also promised to return in person which hasn't happened.

No, Jesus never promised to return in person, and that's why it hasn't happened and never will, unless Jesus lied.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

And you know this because...? Because an ancient text written years after the fact by a non-eyewitness says so?

All I’m saying is that there’s a difference between verifiable fact, a “best guess” based on research, and belief. Nothing wrong with belief; I believe the resurrection. But I’m honest enough to say that it is belief and not try to torture it into fact.

Here's where we need to put a rabid believer in the resurrection on the couch and analyze WHY it's so important to them to convince others their version the right one when all the objective evidence screams at them, "YOU"RE WRONG!" One member here, even after I listed repeated references demonstrating there were no eyewitnesses to the resurrected Jesus, blatantly insisted the experts were wrong and kept insisting there were witnesses and that (s)he are right and the experts are wrong.

Fact: the archetype of gods rising from the dead is older than Christianity.

Fact: Many ancient Mediterranean societies told tales of gods born to virgins (some on December 25) before the time of Christ.

Fact: In human religions, gods often die and return to life. Dionysus was killed, descended into hell and was reborn.

Why should we be surprised Jesus' fable mimics many of the attributes of earlier dying/rising gods? The writers of the gospels were drawing on these pagan god myths for their own myth-.making of Jesus

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe the resurrection. But I’m honest enough to say that it is belief and not try to torture it into fact.

So you believe it even though you don't think it really happened, or you believe it really happened even though it cannot be proven as a fact? Is there a reason you believe it is not a myth when you believe other parts of the Bible are myths?

 

[Colt]

Look at the verses below and please note that Jesus did not say that the temple He was referring to was His body. The verse says But he spake of the temple of his body. The verse does not say But I spake of the temple of my body. Christians assumed that Jesus meant His body because they have confirmation bias, since they already believed what they were taught, that Jesus rose from the dead.

John 2

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

The Temple Jesus was referring to was the Word of God.

Baha'u'llah has explained to all that await a 3rd temple, or the rebuild of a temple:

".... Thus have We built the Temple with the hands of power and might, could ye but know it. This is the Temple promised unto you in the Book. Draw ye nigh unto it. This is that which profiteth you, could ye but comprehend it. Be fair, O peoples of the earth! Which is preferable, this, or a temple which is built of clay? Set your faces towards it. Thus have ye been commanded by God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Follow ye His bidding, and praise ye God, your Lord, for that which He hath bestowed upon you. He, verily, is the Truth. No God is there but He. He revealeth what He pleaseth, through His words “Be and it is”.

The 3 day period is a time of turmoil where the Disciples needed Faith to carry on, the body of Jesus had gone and they needed to find Faith in Spirit to carry on with what Jesus the Christ had instructed them to do.

That is a logical explanation, given by Abdu’l-Baha in the Baha'i Writings.

So his apostles also had confirmation bias after Jesus returned from the dead and confirmed it.

Your Abdu’l-Baha had an anti-Christ bias which causes you to make such ridiculous arguments.

 

[Colt]

No, Jesus never promised to return in person, and that's why it hasn't happened and never will, unless Jesus lied.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

He did and he will and you can make your contorted arguments then when you realize your prophet was a fraud.

 

[paarsurrey]

Here's where we need to put a rabid believer in the resurrection on the couch and analyze WHY it's so important to them to convince others their version the right one when all the objective evidence screams at them, "YOU"RE WRONG!" One member here, even after I listed repeated references demonstrating there were no eyewitnesses to the resurrected Jesus, blatantly insisted the experts were wrong and kept insisting there were witnesses and that (s)he are right and the experts are wrong.

Fact: the archetype of gods rising from the dead is older than Christianity.

Fact: Many ancient Mediterranean societies told tales of gods born to virgins (some on December 25) before the time of Christ.

Fact: In human religions, gods often die and return to life. Dionysus was killed, descended into hell and was reborn.

Why should we be surprised Jesus' fable mimics many of the attributes of earlier dying/rising gods? The writers of the gospels were drawing on these pagan god myths for their own myth-.making of Jesus

SeekingAllTruth said," Fact: the archetype of gods rising from the dead is older than Christianity.
Fact: Many ancient Mediterranean societies told tales of gods born to virgins (some on December 25) before the time of Christ.

Fact: In human religions, gods often die and return to life. Dionysus was killed, descended into hell and was reborn.

Why should we be surprised Jesus' fable mimics many of the attributes of earlier dying/rising gods? The writers of the gospels were drawing on these pagan god myths for their own myth-.making of Jesus. "

I agree with one here.

Regards

 

[Trailblazer]

So his apostles also had confirmation bias after Jesus returned from the dead and confirmed it.

That's all part of the mythical story.

Your Abdu’l-Baha had an anti-Christ bias which causes you to make such ridiculous arguments.

It won't work to call Baha'u'llah the anti-Christ, because the Bible proves He could not have been the anti-Christ.
#269 Trailblazer

This is hardly anti-Christ:
Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah wrote: Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

 

[Trailblazer]

He did and he will

Provide the verses, but don't waste your time on the Son of man in the clouds verses because those are not referring to Jesus.
Those are about Baha'u'llah, not about Jesus.

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

 

[Trailblazer]

He did and he will and you can make your contorted arguments then when you realize your prophet was a fraud.

Do you mean when Jesus comes swooping down from heaven in the clouds? But where is Jesus now that all the prophecies for the return of Christ have been fulfilled? William Sears, Thief in the Night

Talk is cheap but hope springs eternal, and that is all that Christians have, hope.

 

[Colt]

That's all part of the mythical story.

It won't work to call Baha'u'llah the anti-Christ, because the Bible proves He could not have been the anti-Christ.
#269 Trailblazer

This is hardly anti-Christ:
Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah wrote: Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

He attempts to discredit key elements of the Jesus narrative while pretending to believe the Bible. You rely on his thinking and did not arrive at these twisted rip offs of the scripture yourself.

 

[Colt]

Provide the verses, but don't waste your time on the Son of man in the clouds verses because those are not referring to Jesus.
Those are about Baha'u'llah, not about Jesus.

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

Your false prophet ripped off the Bible but you are incapable of seeing what you are in. We were warned by Jesus about the many charlatans that have come and gone.

 

[Trailblazer]

He attempts to discredit key elements of the Jesus narrative while pretending to believe the Bible. You rely on his thinking and did not arrive at these twisted rip offs of the scripture yourself.

Baha'u'llah does not do jack squat with the Bible, I am the one interpreting it.
What ripoffs, what do you think He was ripping off? Jesus is not coming back to earth, so that means it had to be someone else that the Bible was referring to, so even it it was not Baha'u'llah, it won't be Jesus, ever.

(John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4, John 19:30, John 18:36, John 18:37)

 

[Colt]

Baha'u'llah does not do jack squat with the Bible, I am the one interpreting it.
What ripoffs, what do you think He was ripping off? Jesus is not coming back to earth, so that means it had to be someone else that the Bible was referring to, so even it it was not Baha'u'llah, it won't be Jesus, ever.

(John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4, John 19:30, John 18:36, John 18:37)

Declaring Jesus isn’t literally returning to earth is a little above your rank.

 

[sojourner]

Here's where we need to put a rabid believer in the resurrection on the couch and analyze WHY it's so important to them to convince others their version the right one when all the objective evidence screams at them, "YOU"RE WRONG!" One member here, even after I listed repeated references demonstrating there were no eyewitnesses to the resurrected Jesus, blatantly insisted the experts were wrong and kept insisting there were witnesses and that (s)he are right and the experts are wrong.

Fact: the archetype of gods rising from the dead is older than Christianity.

Fact: Many ancient Mediterranean societies told tales of gods born to virgins (some on December 25) before the time of Christ.

Fact: In human religions, gods often die and return to life. Dionysus was killed, descended into hell and was reborn.

Why should we be surprised Jesus' fable mimics many of the attributes of earlier dying/rising gods? The writers of the gospels were drawing on these pagan god myths for their own myth-.making of Jesus

Many scholars posit that the myths of Jesus’ life, particularly his birth and resurrection are blatant ripoffs of the myths surrounding Augustus. He also had a virgin birth & c. Interesting that the oldest known piece of Christian art is a das-relief of a scene of Augustus in which the face of Jesus has been substituted for that of Augustus.

 

[Trailblazer]

Your false prophet ripped off the Bible but you are incapable of seeing what you are in.

You believe what the false prophets of the Church teach but you are incapable of seeing what you are in.

“It has long been generally believed that Jesus Christ was a unique incarnation of God such as had never before appeared in religious history and would never appear again. This tenet made the acceptance of any later Prophet impossible to a Christian. Yet there is nothing in Christ’s own statements, as recorded in the Gospel, to support this view, and it was not generally held during His lifetime.

Another opinion which Christians universally hold about Christ is that His teaching was absolute and final. They believe that if the Truth were partly withheld from them for a time because they could not bear it, it was divulged at Pentecost in its fullness and that now nothing remains to be revealed. But there is nothing in the account of Pentecost to suggest such an interpretation and there is no one who will believe that Jesus would have named the false prophets as characteristic of His age if this warning was to be followed by an immediate release of all Truth to the Church. What the Bible shows is rather a succession of teachers—Abraham, Moses and Christ, each measuring His Revelation to the needs and maturity of His authors….

Many of these false interpretations involve repudiation of the Word of God in favor of the word of man. This impious act is so craftily performed, with such an air of humility, that it might escape the notice of the most sincere and devout of worshippers. Probably few churchgoers realize today that the Gospel of Christ as known to the few in the pulpit is wholly different from the Gospel which Christ preached in Galilee as recorded in the Bible.

In spite of Christ’s promise of further revelation of Truth, through the Comforter, through His own return, through the Spirit of Truth, the Christian Church regards His revelation as final, and itself as the sole trustee of true religion. There is no room for the Supreme Redeemer of the Bible to bring in great changes for the establishment of the Kingdom of God. In fact this Kingdom is often described as a world-wide Church.

Having thus closed God’s Covenant with the Bible, sacred history—God-directed—came to an end, and secular history, having no sense of divine destiny nor unity, began…..

Well might Christ warn His followers that false prophets would arise and misinterpret His teachings so as to delude even the most earnest and intelligent of His believers: from early times Christians have disputed about Christian truth in councils, in sects, in wars.

To sum up, if Christians say “our acts may be wrong,” they say truly. If they say “however our Gospel is right” they are quite wrong. The false prophets have corrupted the Gospel as successfully as they have the deeds and lives of Christian people.”

Christ and Baha'u'llah, pp. 25-30

We were warned by Jesus about the many charlatans that have come and gone.

We were warned because they were many who came claiming to be Christ.
List of people claimed to be Jesus - Wikipedia

Matthew 24

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

But Baha'u'llah never claimed to be Christ, He came with another name just as the Bible says.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

 

[sojourner]

So you believe it even though you don't think it really happened, or you believe it really happened even though it cannot be proven as a fact? Is there a reason you believe it is not a myth when you believe other parts of the Bible are myths?

I think it most likely is mythic as a historic event, but I also think the mythic metaphor points to a larger truth about human spirituality and our own resurrection.

 

[Trailblazer]

Declaring Jesus isn’t literally returning to earth is a little above your rank.

It was not me who made the declaration, it was Jesus, and it is not above His rank.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

no more
phrase of more

1. nothing further.
   "there was no more to be said about it"
2. no further.
   "you must have some soup, but no more wine"
3. exist no longer.
   "the patch of ground was overgrown and the hut was no more"
4. never again.
   "mention his name no more to me"
5. neither.
   "I had no complaints and no more did Tom"

Translate no more to
Definitions from Oxford Languages

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Many scholars posit that the myths of Jesus’ life, particularly his birth and resurrection are blatant ripoffs of the myths surrounding Augustus. He also had a virgin birth & c. Interesting that the oldest known piece of Christian art is a das-relief of a scene of Augustus in which the face of Jesus has been substituted for that of Augustus.

Lots of these details get lost over 2000 years. What most Christians believe about Jesus today was spoon-fed to them in Sunday school like a propaganda pablum. Plant this stuff in a kid's head early enough and 99% of the time it's there for life, evidence to the contrary be damned.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think it most likely is mythic as a historic event, but I also think the mythic metaphor points to a larger truth about human spirituality and our own resurrection.

Are you referring to our own resurrection in a physical body?