That has nothing to do with your accusation that the Catholic Church doesn't want its members reading the Bible, which is bigoted anti-Catholic nonsense.
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Why I believe in Christ
- Thread starter mmarco
- Start date
Mitty
Active Member
Whilst the RC church may have changed it's policies recently to attract more customers, historically it discouraged it's customers from reading the bible for themselves, and seeing that biblical morality including the 10 commandments is obviously just man-made, and that the bible even commands the pregnancies of adulteresses to be aborted (Numbers 5:20-28) etc.
No, it didn't. It's just that most people were totally illiterate for the majority of Christian history so there was no point in most people having one until the modern era. You don't need to read the Bible in order to be a Christian, so that was irrelevant. That's one reason why we have such grand stained glass art - to teach Bible stories to those who can't read. Catholic Church released its English translation of the Bible before the KJV came out, by the way.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
That's not the reason.
True, and the reason for that was largely because most people hundreds of years ago didn't have much of a theological background to begin with. When that changed, the Church gradually loosened its restriction. Even Luther began to doubt whether he made a right decision to have the Bible written in German for general consumption.
How could you possibly know that? Belief, yes; fact, no.
Abortion is never mentioned in the scriptures, but there was a provision that if a man were to cause a woman to miscarry he would have to pay a pretty hefty fine.
Mitty
Active Member
In other words the RC church told it's customers what to believe.
"Customers"? You don't pay anything to join the Catholic Church or be a member. Tithing isn't practiced in Catholicism. As for telling its members what to believe (or, rather, declaring what its beliefs are)? As much as any other organized religion does. You sound like you have a chip on your shoulder against the Church. That's not my problem.
Mitty
Active Member
So what evidence do you have that biblical morality isn't just man-made, given that the ten commandments etc didn't apply to Abraham et al and their ancestors? Which is why it wasn't morally wrong for Abraham to kill his son as a blood sacrifice or for Cain(an) to kill his brother Abel or for Noah's father to kill a young man (Gen 4), and why it wasn't morally wrong for Abraham to have a sexual relationship with his sister Sarah and commit adultery with Hagar. And why it wasn't morally wrong for Lot to sexually assault his daughters after he tried to pimp them and mocked their future husbands for wanting to know what two strangers were up to in Lot's house (Gen 19).
The fine for causing a miscarriage was only imposed as compensation because of the property rights of men, given that Numbers 5:20-28 commands the termination of pregnancies of adulteresses by drinking a "bitter water" abortifacient.
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Mitty
Active Member
So where did the RC church get it's money from to pay it's clergy and for it's infrastructure etc if it wasn't from tithing and from it's customers paying for it's products such as baptisms & marriages & funerals and confessionals etc?
Dude, do you know anything about how the Catholic Church works? Apparently you don't. You're asking stupid questions. The Catholic Church doesn't tithe, but you can make offerings or donations if you wish. The Sacraments don't cost anything and it would be a major sin (simony) if they did charge for them, but there are stipends to have a Mass intention for someone. However, those stipends are not required, especially of the poor. But you pay nothing for baptism, Communion, confession, etc.
How much does a funeral Mass cost? Nothing, actually
OtherSheep
<--@ Titangel
Mitty
Active Member
So how did the RC church get it's money to build its churches & abbeys & cathedrals etc if it didn't charge it's customers for it's products? Do you think that it was just manna from heaven.
Obviously the confessional and other sacraments such as marriage services and funeral services were introduced to provide the church with it's income, given that a biblical marriage is simply a personal agreement between two people to shack up together and doesn't require a legally signed marriage contract or a wedding celebrant or witnesses.
OtherSheep
<--@ Titangel
I believe/feel/think... from the same place Solomon got his; there is a connection: Jesus says the Pharisees would be held responsible for all the murders of all the righteous, which would include the Roman persecutions of Christians, and all the Inquisitions, and any righteous person killed in any world war... from any time in history... "where Satan has his seat" "ye are of your father."
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Are you even bothering to read anything I say? It seems not. I said that the Church doesn't require payment for marriages or funerals, and won't accept payment for baptism, Communion, confession, anointing of the sick, last rites, etc. If you want to continue with your insincere bizarre questions and ignoring what the other person says, then we're done.
OtherSheep
<--@ Titangel
I believe/feel/think... sadly, that used to be true; the Talmud commentaries on the Bible might be said to have the very same effect.
Mitty
Active Member
So why should you pay attention to anything Paul wrote given that he didn't write about Jesus' life and his message and never even met Jesus.
Mitty
Active Member
Are you even bothering to read anything I say? That only applies recently to try to attract and retain customers, but historically the church charged it's customers for it's products as "voluntary" donations, and why it introduced the sacraments such as the confessional etc and that sins weren't forgiven until the money hit the bottom of the donation plate.
If you believe otherwise, then where did the church get it's money to pay for it's capital expenses and running costs, and why do you need a clergyman to forgive you for your sins anyway?
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OtherSheep
<--@ Titangel
Why do you assume that I do?
No, they never charged for those things. Where are you getting that nonsense from?
You do realize that kings and queens made huge donations to the Church for many centuries, right? The wealthy still make huge donations to the Church. They don't need to charge people.
Mitty
Active Member
Were you there? And is that why the kings and queens taxed the poor? But have you ever read anything about the history of the church and how it has evolved?
And why did the church introduce the sacraments such as the confessional if it wasn't as an income source?
And why do you need a clergyman to forgive you for your sins, and where does the bible say that you need a confessional or a marriage celebrant?
And what was the relevance of infant baptisms apart from as an income source when infant deaths were common? Afterall we are all born atheists and only choose our beliefs when much older.
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