Why don't atheists change faiths very often?

[QuestioningMind]

You have proof that there is no deity/deities?

One cannot prove a negative. I can claim that pink unicorns exist and it's impossible for you to prove that they don't. All I can do is offer evidence that they actually do. If I fail to provide such evidence then you would have no reason to accept my claim that they are real.

 

[LukeS]

Faith is believing without reason.

That's just one definition of faith, from "analytic philosophy".

 

[Sha'irullah]

Some of this has to do with sincerity of belief or lack thereof while in some cases it can be commitment to a label. The same way being vegan or a part of a political party heavily enriches one's mental status. There is sometimes cases of ideological snobbery or commitment because it helps to define a person. This is apart of modernity as we see people commit form of individualistic tribalism.

As somebody who was an atheist for some years and just recently became a theist I must say that it feels embarrassing and shameful to some degree for switching. Atheism just does not suit itself to the acceptance of difference in individual thought. I do not think this has to do with atheism itself but more so with the modern mentality of secularism in the west.

Somebody like me is not trying to pick sides and there are many others who are like myself and we simply wish to be happy without the constraint and ridicule of aggressive groups. So I heavily doubt you will see many atheists changing to religion or theism of some sort in mass. It just isn't tolerable with the attack on religion and you also won't see many theist becoming atheist at significant rates either or at least adopting the word atheist.

 

[1robin]

Considering Christianity requires zero effort and zero works, allows you to eat and drink what you want, do what you want, only requires you accept Jesus pbuh and be granted eternal life, I'm surprised it's not the only religion in the whole World. 99.99% of Christians do not even understand the orthodox doctrine of who God is in Christianity. 100% of Christians can not explain it without showing they worship more than One God as required of them by Jesus pbuh and the Torah.

If pure Monotheism is the standard to be followed, as confirmed by the God of Abraham pbuh, then Islam overtook Christianity and Judaism combined by the end of the 8th Century.

1. Prayers requires focusing upon God with great intensity. The bible said Jesus prayed until he sweat blood.
2. Since this whole initial list of things is the same exact argument made using a dozen examples I will just respond in general.

Without even considering if your right, a religion that requires works is not superior to one that requires grace. In fact I can show the exact opposite.

I didn't state that pure monotheism is the goal here. I said believing in God and being saved by Jesus Christ is the goal.

Arguments from popularity are fallacies, I just used popularity to show that you claims about popularity were wrong.

I do not see how Islam is still not the largest religion in the world when a new born is counted as a Muslim before he is old enough to need grace, do good works, or choose anything. And in many entire Islamic nations leaving Islam is a capitol crime. I am not even sure that can be considered in the same way any other faith that lacks coercion.

If Christians are saved by Christ's acts of love and charity instead of our own, then raiding caravan's, having satanic fits, getting history, biology, and mathematics wrong and plagiarizing known heretical texts must be Islam's because that is what the principle figure's of each religion spent most of their time doing.

BTW the argument your trying so hard and in vain to create doesn't seem to relate to the thread.

 

[1robin]

I had an original premise? I thought it was just a fondness for beer and a dislike of folks claiming to have knowledge of God.

Then you should have opened with that absurd worldview. I guess you took the saying "it is better to be thought a fool that open your mouth and remove all doubt, then did it anyway" Why don't you go back and quote your original premise?

 

[1robin]

Clear isn't a color.

Then my analogy is even more accurate. Atheism allows for no God's to pick from or switch to. They have no God like clear has no pigment.

You're using some obscure definition of faith, probably.
Your belief is a faith like any other, even if it is towards the non-existant 'god'.
A-theos

Lets actually look one up. This is a theological thread so lets pick one in a theological context.

1. Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

Anything weird in that definition?

Atheism isn't that.

 

[Desert Snake]

Then my analogy is even more accurate. Atheism allows for no God's to pick from or switch to. They have no God like clear has no pigment.

I wasn't asking atheists that question, I was asking you.

Lets actually look one up. This is a theological thread so lets pick one in a theological context.

1. Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

Anything weird in that definition?

Atheism isn't that.

Yes, that definition is actually pretty weird. That seems not weird to you?

 

[Muslim-UK]

1. Prayers requires focusing upon God with great intensity. The bible said Jesus prayed until he sweat blood.

Yes to be saved from the cross, the very thing you want him to be tortured on.

I didn't state that pure monotheism is the goal here. I said believing in God and being saved by Jesus Christ is the goal.

Considering you are supposed to be a continuation of the Torah, where is loving Jesus pbuh to be found? Rather we see adhering to Monotheism as the key to salvation.

Arguments from popularity are fallacies, I just used popularity to show that you claims about popularity were wrong.

I'm sure you won't be bringing popularity up again.

I do not see how Islam is still not the largest religion in the world when a new born is counted as a Muslim before he is old enough to need grace, do good works, or choose anything.

Well yes, if you want to all people under the age of puberty as being Muslims then yes, Islam would be the largest Religion. Doing works helps raise your rank in Heaven, as there are 7 Heavens to go through before you live amongst the Prophets.

And in many entire Islamic nations leaving Islam is a capitol crime. I am not even sure that can be considered in the same way any other faith that lacks coercion.

People are free to leave Islam, but in some Countries they are not free to to insult Islam, as it's classed as treason. The American Government kills its own citizens for political treason, without arrest and trial.

If Christians are saved by Christ's acts of love and charity instead of our own, then raiding caravan's, having satanic fits, getting history, biology, and mathematics wrong and plagiarizing known heretical texts must be Islam's because that is what the principle figure's of each religion spent most of their time doing.

Feel free to start a thread on any of these matters to get a free education and be shown how your Bible is unreliable. I won't hold my breath :/

BTW the argument your trying so hard and in vain to create doesn't seem to relate to the thread.

My arguments are valid. It's a fact most Atheists that attack religious beliefs, (mostly yours) are former Christians.

 

[1robin]

Yes to be saved from the cross, the very thing you want him to be tortured on.

I did not say I wanted Christ tortured on anything. I just believe that is what happened. Apparently I am going to have to make sure your not misrepresenting what I state all the time. I hate having to do that.

Considering you are supposed to be a continuation of the Torah, where is loving Jesus pbuh to be found? Rather we see adhering to Monotheism as the key to salvation.

I am not a continuation of the Torah, 2 for 2 so far. Are you asking if Jesus is mentioned or appears in the OT?

I'm sure you won't be bringing popularity up again.

As long as you don't make any more incorrect statements about numbers I won't.

Well yes, if you want to all people under the age of puberty as being Muslims then yes, Islam would be the largest Religion. Doing works helps raise your rank in Heaven, as there are 7 Heavens to go through before you live amongst the Prophets.

Then you do the very thing I predicted in the very next claim. I didn't say if then, I said despite the fact that is what is occurring. IN most Islamic nations babies born to Muslim parents (maybe even if it is a Muslim male father) he goes straight into your stats for how many Muslims exist.

Your unrelated works point will come up again. I will wait to address it then.

People are free to leave Islam, but in some Countries they are not free to to insult Islam, as it's classed as treason. The American Government kills its own citizens for political treason, without arrest and trial.

No, in many mainstream Islamic nations leaving the faith of Islam is potentially a capitol crime. I am not defending the USA government and I am not sure they do that anymore but if they do and the law states a trial is required.

Feel free to start a thread on any of these matters to get a free education and be shown how your Bible is unreliable. I won't hold my breath :/

Obviously humility is not too high on your personal catalogue of Islamic moral virtues. I am not sure I want to condemn Islam but if you want to start down that road hen lets start at the beginning (Muhammad's cave experience).

My arguments are valid. It's a fact most Atheists that attack religious beliefs, (mostly yours) are former Christians.

Do you not remember making this exact same statement a few days ago, and my reply that you have no access to the data required to prove what you just said. You have not been debating here very long have you?

 

[Muslim-UK]

Obviously humility is not too high on your personal catalogue of Islamic moral virtues. I am not sure I want to condemn Islam but if you want to start down that road hen lets start at the beginning (Muhammad's cave experience).

Who wants to be meek and humble when your eternal soul is at stake? Go ahead and start the thread on the Prophet's pbuh cave experience. All I require is that you are consistent, and use authentic sources.

 

[Nakosis]

Then you should have opened with that absurd worldview. I guess you took the saying "it is better to be thought a fool that open your mouth and remove all doubt, then did it anyway" Why don't you go back and quote your original premise?

Well if you don't like beer, that's fine. It's not for everyone.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

The self replicating organic Cell is massively complicated

The problem with "I don't get how it's done, therefore God" is that some people are clueless about the simplest things.

People would be entitled to ask, well who created God then, as He's more complex than anything we can fathom.

Or He could be a lot simpler than we assume.

If I were to say, for the sake of argument, that someone created ALLAH, then they would ask you, Who created the creator of the Creator? Then, who created the creator of the creator of the creator?! And so on, ad infinitum. This is irrational and impossible, thus GOD must be the uncaused cause of the start of the Universe, and subsequent life as we know it. Indeed he tells us, He is outside of Time and Space, and not subject to the rules that govern us.

You can have an infinite set of causes. Who told you it was impossible?

If we look at the best minds in the World and marvel at how smart they are, then how much more is this true of the Being who designed the Universe, Solar System, Earth and the Human Body to name but a few things. He is Intelligent beyond anything we can ever hope to comprehend.

I'm (hopefully) more intelligent than a bacterium can comprehend. Does that make me a god?

I can't tell you what exists outside of the Bowl, other than GOD. There is no mention of time and space as we know it beyond the known Universe(s).

The human feeding the fish from outside the aquarium is thus a god?

He is Intelligent beyond anything we can ever hope to comprehend

I would expect fewer defects from the most intelligent being, honestly.

Worship of God takes 15-30 mins a day, out of 24 hrs.

In some religious perspectives, everything we do should be considered worship. Cleaning the car should be worship. Eating potato chips should be worship. Etc, etc.

Do Atheists have complete trust in Scientists to explain the mysteries of the World and beyond?

Unlike many religious marketing folk, we expect scientists to have objective data.

Which books claim to be the word of God, that actually say, this is from God. Put aside what people claim, let the book speak for itself.

I see many religious books where God is just barely smarter or more moral than the general human population.

Yes to be saved from the cross, the very thing you want him to be tortured on.

*dies from laughter* BURN!

 

[Muslim-UK]

The problem with "I don't get how it's done, therefore God" is that some people are clueless about the simplest things.

A cursory enquiry shows the perceived simplest things to be manifestly complex.

Or He could be a lot simpler than we assume.

The figment of our imagination is likely what you are thinking.

You can have an infinite set of causes. Who told you it was impossible?

Yes Scientists and Atheist apologists cite this as a possibility, but fail to bring evidences, the very thing they accuse believers of not doing.

I'm (hopefully) more intelligent than a bacterium can comprehend. Does that make me a god? The human feeding the fish from outside the aquarium is thus a god?

There's no evidence showing bacterium has any discernible comprehension, but if it did, then yes perhaps it would, or it might think a giraffe was a bigger god, until it came across a elephant. This would make the bacterium have polytheistic tendencies, something the true God would frown upon. We shouldn't discuss such matters for fear of giving said bacterium ideas and leading them astray o messenger of the Phoenix order.

On the issue of fish feeding, no unless you can create the fish from absolutely nothing, they wouldn't consider you to be god, likely they would think she's running late today, or my aren't the portions getting smaller, or how about some variety in our diet; is she ever going to straighten that picture hanging on the wall or any number of other things that occupy the imaginary minds of fish. My favourite would be, they dream of being led out of captivity by Moses the bull shark.

I would expect fewer defects from the most intelligent being, honestly.

The ability to fly and not need the bathroom would be good too, perhaps less sleep, more get up and go, the ability to swim deeper, run faster, be stronger, (All things left behind in the Evolutionary process, strange that). I'm sure we will have lots of questions to ask when we return to Him.

In some religious perspectives, everything we do should be considered worship. Cleaning the car should be worship. Eating potato chips should be worship. Etc, etc.

You are actually right on this, cleanliness is half of religion, and looking after oneself is a duty upon believers, though believing Doctors would question the health benefits of potato chips, but your thinking is certainly heading in the right way :/

Unlike many religious marketing folk, we expect scientists to have objective data.

Well on key areas all they have are workable models, ie best guesses.

I see many religious books where God is just barely smarter or more moral than the general human population.

You'll have to give an example from the Qur'an.

*dies from laughter* BURN!

Joking aside, well kinda, if he returned tomorrow and commanded Christians to keep certain religious and dietary laws, they would likely strip, beat and lead him back to the cross, only this time they would record the whole thing, and make sure he's up there for a believable amount of time getting regular prods from a cattle stick to ensure he's feeling the slow torture. It would go mainstream, cnn, fox news, live streaming, selfies and definitely al jazeera, so the Mooslims can't refute it.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I see many religious books where God is just barely smarter or more moral than the general human population.

Not in the holy book with which I'm most familiar. That one has a god that, though called perfect and omniscient, nevertheless laments and regrets the work it has done, and rather than poof the corrections to earth, decides to drown the planet including most of the beasts, who are obviously innocent.

Imagine the collective terror on earth during a global flood, as every living thing tries to find higher and higher ground, eventually unable climb higher. The water level is rising, necks are craning so that noses can remain in the atmosphere, and then, with all adrenaline flowing, a cruel, terrifying death.

That's a moral failure of epic proportion that I would never be guilty of, and I assume, neither would you or anybody else reading these words.

Then the intellectual failure - the hare-brained scheme to correct the problem by repopulating the earth using the same breeding stock.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Not in the holy book with which I'm most familiar. That one has a god that, though called perfect and omniscient, nevertheless laments and regrets the work it has done, and rather than poof the corrections to earth, decides to drown the planet including most of the beasts, who are obviously innocent.

Imagine the collective terror on earth during a global flood, as every living thing tries to find higher and higher ground, eventually unable climb higher. The water level is rising, necks are craning so that noses can remain in the atmosphere, and then, with all adrenaline flowing, a cruel, terrifying death.

That's a moral failure of epic proportion that I would never be guilty of, and I assume, neither would you or anybody else reading these words.

Then the intellectual failure - the hare-brained scheme to correct the problem by repopulating the earth using the same breeding stock.

It was a localised flood in the region of Eden, a home from home of sorts.

According to the archaeological findings, Nuh’s Flood took place on the Mesopotamian Plain, the shape of which was very different to that of today. The present-day limits of the plain are shown with a dotted red line in the above diagram. The wide region beyond that line is known to have been part of the sea at that time.

Excavations in the Mesopotamian Plain revealed the presence of a layer of mud and clay at a depth of 2.5 metres (8 feet). This stratum in all probability consisted of clay carried by the waters of the Flood, and is to be found only under the Mesopotamian Plain.

Miracles of the Qur'an - Modern Science Reveals New Miracles of the Qur'an

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

It was a localised flood in the region of Eden, a home from home of sorts.

According to the archaeological findings, Nuh’s Flood took place on the Mesopotamian Plain, the shape of which was very different to that of today. The present-day limits of the plain are shown with a dotted red line in the above diagram. The wide region beyond that line is known to have been part of the sea at that time.

Excavations in the Mesopotamian Plain revealed the presence of a layer of mud and clay at a depth of 2.5 metres (8 feet). This stratum in all probability consisted of clay carried by the waters of the Flood, and is to be found only under the Mesopotamian Plain.

Miracles of the Qur'an - Modern Science Reveals New Miracles of the Qur'an

Eden? Is that near Shangrila or Xanadu?

Historical floods are irrelevant. The flood in the Old Testament was a global flood that submerged all land. That flood never occurred.

It's nothing but a myth, which is incidental to the fact that whether true or not, it remains the story of a cruel and low-thinking god whose alleged plan was clearly doomed to failure. One doesn't need to be omniscient to see that.

 

[Nakosis]

I've never ever met anyone who believed in something without there being some evidence.

Evidence that has been validated/verified. When a scientist claims something, usually we can validate at least part of that claim with physical evidence.

When I claim something is true, I had to test it, verify, get someone else to verify it, try to disprove it before I have any confidence in it or expect someone else to accept the claim.

This God stuff, the evidence is feelings and personal experience. Claims for folks you don't know, can't test them at their word. "Evidence" myself and other people accept can't be trusted without physical validation.

There are things I think might be true but I have no physical evidence for. They are theories, but even theories have some basis in physical evidence.

 

[Nakosis]

So in answer to your question to syncretic, "Since atheism isn't a faith to begin with, what the heck are you talking about?" you as an Atheist have 'faith' in men or do you define 'faith' as being the preserve of the Religious community?

It's not a good idea to have faith in men. Even if they are scientists. You should require physical evidence to backup someone's claim.

For Muhammad and Jesus, there's folks who claim they said this or that, yet no physical evidence so far that either ever existed. I know folks who feel they have a personal relationship with Jesus. That is a reality of their experience, but there is no physical evidence of this relationship. People can have a personal relationship with whichever God they choose to believe in. However physical evidence does not exist to back up these claims of personal relationships with Gods.

 

[1robin]

Who wants to be meek and humble when your eternal soul is at stake? Go ahead and start the thread on the Prophet's pbuh cave experience. All I require is that you are consistent, and use authentic sources.

Matthew 5:5 - Blessed are the meek (gentle - NKJV), for they shall inherit the earth. Jesus declares a "blessing" (happiness) on those who are meek.

Galatians 5:22,23 - Meekness is one of the fruits of the Spirit - qualities that we must possess if we are led by the Spirit.

Proverbs 16:18,19 - Pride goes before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall. It is better to be of a humble spirit with the lowly.
Meekness and Humility: God's Cure for Pride, Arrogance and Haughtiness

I have started two threads for that exact discussion with Muslims. Both got frustrated because they couldn't counter my claims and quit. If there is going to be a third thread with a Muslim on the subject you would have to create it.

 

[Desert Snake]

One cannot prove a negative. I can claim that pink unicorns exist and it's impossible for you to prove that they don't. All I can do is offer evidence that they actually do. If I fail to provide such evidence then you would have no reason to accept my claim that they are real.

This isn't proving a negative, it is proving your assertion, that you consequentially make, by stating that theism needs to be proved. You do have that necessity, when you claim that theists have to prove theism.

==

The argument is then contextual to equal 'proofs'.

This is why, it is nonsensical, to state that theists have the burden of proof