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Why doesn't God stop evil, pain and suffering?

lunamoth

Will to love
Quick yoga joke.

:p (More like a meditation joke than a yoga joke, but still funny).

I think you missed one of my posts:

luna said:
The only thing is, there are unanswerable questions in naturalism, too.

Why is supernaturalism not allowed paradox/mystery but naturalism is?

Is it the level of certainty that you are concerned about?

If so, why would you reject as invalid approaches to religion based upon faith, which by definition includes uncertainty?
 

Beaudreaux

Well-Known Member
I think you missed one of my posts:
Indeed I did. Shame on me! :)
Originally Posted by luna
The only thing is, there are unanswerable questions in naturalism, too.

Why is supernaturalism not allowed paradox/mystery but naturalism is?


I am unaware of any questions in naturalism that cannot be solved. Can you provide an example? That will help me understand the below questions which I promise not to forget about. :)

Is it the level of certainty that you are concerned about?

If so, why would you reject as invalid approaches to religion based upon faith, which by definition includes uncertainty?
 

lunamoth

Will to love
I am unaware of any questions in naturalism that cannot be solved. Can you provide an example? That will help me understand the below questions which I promise not to forget about. :)[/i]


Well, on one end of the spectrum there is the uncertainty principle and the indication in quantum physics that subatomic particles may not follow any physical laws that we will have the power to discern.

On the other end of the spectrum is the Evolutionary argument against naturalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

The EAAN, as it is affectionately known, seems also to be philosophically linked to Godel's Incompleteness Theorem which states that "in any system containing arithmetic there are true statements which cannot be proved within the system."

It seems that this incompleteness holds true for what we can 'know.' If our powers of reason are in question, how can we definatively answer how valid they are using reason?
 
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Freelancer7

Active Member
Now im not sure what a modern conflict has to do, with the fact that species have been suffering mass extinctions many millions of years before the appearance of man on the Terran landscape, or with the fact that plagues and famines have been killing animals and humans and still do today, that natural disasters have wiped populated centers. the world and the universe are what they are, and perhaps with progress we can push the illusion that life is sterile a bit more (and even that to only certain segments of the human populations). once you accept the world as it is, its one step closer to start dealing with it.

Blimey, sometimes I question people who believe they have questioned and searched their soul?!:confused:
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Uh oh....here we go again. :)
Well, stop and think about it. If I said the same thing about atheism, or humanism, or an ethnic group, what would you call it? So why is it ok when you do it?

That point aside, you act as if "religion" were some monolithic, malevolent entity, which is just silly. You might as well say literature is dangerous.

I do provide support for my position. What if I told you that a man prepared a home made pipe bomb, drove to an abortion clinic, lit it and threw it through a window killing several staff members and patients inside. Afterward he met with friends who applauded what he did and considered him to be a hero. From that description there is very little you could assume about him. His age? No. His educational level? No. His race? No. But there is one thing is almost certain about him. His religion. Religious belief is a necessary and sufficient cause for that action. If that were the only example of how religious belief can cause human suffering it would be compelling. That there are thousands of such horrific acts that are attributable to religious belief is substantially compelling.
The only reason you can guess his religion with any reliability is because something like three quarters of the American population identify as Christian. An American terrorist is probably Christian, not because he is Christian, but American.

Isn't it? The technology is cool, but I think it is eclipsed by the compelling prose of Harris. He is, IMHO, the most eloquent contemporary voice against irrational belief.
Harris is well spoken, I'll grant you. Doesn't make him right.
 

Beaudreaux

Well-Known Member
Well, stop and think about it. If I said the same thing about atheism, or humanism, or an ethnic group, what would you call it? So why is it ok when you do it?
Would it be bigotted to call Hitler's philosophy on the Aryan Race dangerous? How about eugenics? I agree that it is bigotted to make such accusations about an ethnic group because such sweeping generalizations about them are always untrue. But people who hold an idea do so by choice, and by definition, they have core beliefs in common.

My contention is that there is a large group of people in the world who believe that a God of some kind informs how they should live their lives. History has plainly demonstrated that such beliefs have been direct causes of human suffering. Even today, belief in God is causing human suffering. It resists distributing condoms to people who should not be having children or transmitting AIDS. It restricts research on embryonic stem cells that could have a dramatic impact on human suffering.
That point aside, you act as if "religion" were some monolithic, malevolent entity, which is just silly. You might as well say literature is dangerous.
Believe that one's actions should be informed by a supernatural creator is directly linked to human suffering. Instead of saying I'm silly, perhaps you can refute? Are you saying that religion is NOT the cause of things like the Crusades, Abortion clinic bombings, the torture of the inquisition, the Salem witch trials, Palestinian suicide bombers, the 911 attackers, the countless human sacrifices in mezoamerica, etc?
The only reason you can guess his religion with any reliability is because something like three quarters of the American population identify as Christian. An American terrorist is probably Christian, not because he is Christian, but American.
So, you think that it is easy to guess that he is Christian because that's the odds in America? Really? I don't buy it. You're not thinking he's a Lutheran from Minnesota or a Presbyterian from Illinois. You know from teh news that Fundamentalist Christians have done this sort of thing before and you know their extremist pro-life stance is the reason why.

Harris is well spoken, I'll grant you. Doesn't make him right.
No, it doesn't. The fact that he's right makes him right. :)
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Would it be bigotted to call Hitler's philosophy on the Aryan Race dangerous? How about eugenics?
No, and I'll tell you the difference: those are specific. What you're doing is not. I would, for example, agree that Wahhabi (sp?) Islam is dangerous.Islam, otoh, is not.

I agree that it is bigotted to make such accusations about an ethnic group because such sweeping generalizations about them are always untrue.
"Religion" is a vastly more sweeping generalization. Off the top of my head, you're lumping in 93% of the human race, far, FAR more than any ethcic group. How in the world do you justify that?

But people who hold an idea do so by choice, and by definition, they have core beliefs in common.
Name one idea "the religious" hold in common. Damn, sweetie, we don't even agree that there's a God.

Are you saying that religion is NOT the cause of things like the Crusades, Abortion clinic bombings, the torture of the inquisition, the Salem witch trials, Palestinian suicide bombers, the 911 attackers, the countless human sacrifices in mezoamerica, etc?
I'll grant you human sacrifice, with the caveat that it's irrelevant as nobody practices it anymore. As for the rest, yes, I am saying that religion is not the cause. In every case you list, the core teachings of the religion are ignored, if not outright disobeyed.

So, you think that it is easy to guess that he is Christian because that's the odds in America? Really? I don't buy it. You're not thinking he's a Lutheran from Minnesota or a Presbyterian from Illinois. You know from teh news that Fundamentalist Christians have done this sort of thing before and you know their extremist pro-life stance is the reason why.
I can't help it if you think I'm a liar, but I would hope I've earned more respect than that.

No, it doesn't. The fact that he's right makes him right. :)
Harris is a hatemonger. He does nothing but pander to prejudice and further division. The fact that you swallow it is saddening, but hardly persuasive. :(
 

science_is_my_god

Philosophical Monist
Name one idea "the religious" hold in common. Damn, sweetie, we don't even agree that there's a God.
The one idea religions hold in common is the belief or beliefs of something. That something (god, karma, balance of the universe, etc.) always has no factual basis, because there is not enough significant evidence to support them without reasonable doubt. Trust me Storm, if there was, atheists wouldn't exist, and religious "mumbo-jumbo" would be in textbooks, not outdated holy texts .

I'll grant you human sacrifice, with the caveat that it's irrelevant as nobody practices it anymore. As for the rest, yes, I am saying that religion is not the cause. In every case you list, the core teachings of the religion are ignored, if not outright disobeyed.
I don't think religions themselves cause these horrible events, but they certainly influence one's resoning, justifications, and therefor, decisions.
 

Vaderecta

Active Member
Nor was it my intention too.

But if you want to joust on stab wounds to the heart being pleasurable you honestly cant think of a situation where that would be more pleasurable then enduring whatever situation you were in? (In a way I find that touchingly innocent)

On another but similar level... There were people not to long ago who planned their suicide and delighted in the planning and execution there of.

There are suicide cults.

There are cutters.

There are people who eternally believe they are ill and delight in their illness.

You say nothing I said would make you want to be sick or in pain. Thats good. But not my point. For some, being sick and in pain is their pleasure. Its their neurochemical response.

Thirteen reasons?
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Imagine the person you love most in the world. Now imagine that person in a hospital bed before you wracked in pain and dying of pancreatic cancer.
Already happened. My beloved mother died of pancreatic cancer in January of last year. I've had my grievances with God but I still believe at the end of the day. We're all going to die one day. I have hope that I will see my loved ones again. Even God Himself (Jesus) suffered and died.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...Why not? ...

Because people wanted to know evil. That is why we were expelled from paradise and life to this first death. This is like the Matrix in the movie matrix, a place where we can experience things without destroying the soul that is the important thing in the Biblical point of view. This is like a lesson, those who love more good than evil have opportunity to come back to God and life, if they are righteous.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Most monotheistic religions (certainly Christianity and Judaism) say three things about God:
  • He's omniscient and omnipotent (there is nothing he does not know or cannot do)
  • He's omnibenevolent (he is all-loving)
  • Evil and pain and suffering are real in the world
But one look at the world around us shows us that these three things cannot all be true. Consider:
  • The day after Christmas in 2004 an earthquake in the Indian Ocean caused a series of massive Tsunami that killed over a quarter million people. Parents who could not hang on to their children watched as they were drowned in the flood.
  • A year later in 2005, a hurricane ripped into the southeastern U.S. killing over 1,800 people. In New Orleans, homeowners retreated to their attics to escape the rising flood waters, only to huddle together in fear as the water rose and they watched each other drown.
  • Around 10,000 BCE, a virus came into the world that killed 20% - 60% of the people it infected (except for children, where the mortality rate was 80%). This was not a quick death, but often took days of being covered in painful pustules on the skin and in the throat. In the 18th century, it killed 400,000 people per year and was responsibile for a third of all blindness. During the 20th century it is estimated that this virus killed 3 - 5 hundred million people.
  • Too many more like this to list them all...
If the Christian God exists, he knew about the Asian Tsunami, Hurrican Katrina and Smallpox before they occured, yet he did nothing to prevent them from happening. Why not?

Imagine the person you love most in the world. Now imagine that person in a hospital bed before you wracked in pain and dying of pancreatic cancer. After attending to your loved one for several days and taking in the full extent of their suffering, a doctor walks up to you and says "You know I have a cure for that type of cancer." You think to yourself "this is fantastic! My loved one can be spared!" But when you ask the doctor to give your loved one the cure, he refuses. You beg, you plead, you take legal action, but none of it works. The doctor refuses and your loved one dies shortly afterward.

What would we say about this doctor? Would we say he was a good man? No! We would probabaly say he is a demon. But God is just like the doctor. He sits back and watches the evil and suffering that plagues humanity knowing full well that he could prevent it, yet he refuses to.

So, what can we say about God?

And there you go.....
If god is omniscient and omnipotent, then he knew the consequences of his decisions from the very beginning, and therefore is responsible for all outcomes of his decisions. Furthermore, he consciously chose those outcomes, no matter how horrific.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Most monotheistic religions (certainly Christianity and Judaism) say three things about God:
  • He's omniscient and omnipotent (there is nothing he does not know or cannot do)
  • He's omnibenevolent (he is all-loving)
  • Evil and pain and suffering are real in the world
But one look at the world around us shows us that these three things cannot all be true. Consider:
  • The day after Christmas in 2004 an earthquake in the Indian Ocean caused a series of massive Tsunami that killed over a quarter million people. Parents who could not hang on to their children watched as they were drowned in the flood.
  • A year later in 2005, a hurricane ripped into the southeastern U.S. killing over 1,800 people. In New Orleans, homeowners retreated to their attics to escape the rising flood waters, only to huddle together in fear as the water rose and they watched each other drown.
  • Around 10,000 BCE, a virus came into the world that killed 20% - 60% of the people it infected (except for children, where the mortality rate was 80%). This was not a quick death, but often took days of being covered in painful pustules on the skin and in the throat. In the 18th century, it killed 400,000 people per year and was responsibile for a third of all blindness. During the 20th century it is estimated that this virus killed 3 - 5 hundred million people.
  • Too many more like this to list them all...
If the Christian God exists, he knew about the Asian Tsunami, Hurrican Katrina and Smallpox before they occured, yet he did nothing to prevent them from happening. Why not?

Imagine the person you love most in the world. Now imagine that person in a hospital bed before you wracked in pain and dying of pancreatic cancer. After attending to your loved one for several days and taking in the full extent of their suffering, a doctor walks up to you and says "You know I have a cure for that type of cancer." You think to yourself "this is fantastic! My loved one can be spared!" But when you ask the doctor to give your loved one the cure, he refuses. You beg, you plead, you take legal action, but none of it works. The doctor refuses and your loved one dies shortly afterward.

What would we say about this doctor? Would we say he was a good man? No! We would probabaly say he is a demon. But God is just like the doctor. He sits back and watches the evil and suffering that plagues humanity knowing full well that he could prevent it, yet he refuses to.

So, what can we say about God?


That is easy, If God did come here to stop pain,evil and suffering, you would only be in Rebillion against God.
Just like your doing.

God did try to get people to do the right thing back in the old testament, but all people did, just like people are doing to day nothing but Rebellion against God.

You would think instead of wasting your time complaning, You would be on your knees asking God for the return of Christ Jesus to get rid of all this pain,evil and suffering, that you Complain so much about.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Most monotheistic religions (certainly Christianity and Judaism) say three things about God:
  • He's omniscient and omnipotent (there is nothing he does not know or cannot do)
  • He's omnibenevolent (he is all-loving)
  • Evil and pain and suffering are real in the world
But one look at the world around us shows us that these three things cannot all be true. Consider:
  • The day after Christmas in 2004 an earthquake in the Indian Ocean caused a series of massive Tsunami that killed over a quarter million people. Parents who could not hang on to their children watched as they were drowned in the flood.
  • A year later in 2005, a hurricane ripped into the southeastern U.S. killing over 1,800 people. In New Orleans, homeowners retreated to their attics to escape the rising flood waters, only to huddle together in fear as the water rose and they watched each other drown.
  • Around 10,000 BCE, a virus came into the world that killed 20% - 60% of the people it infected (except for children, where the mortality rate was 80%). This was not a quick death, but often took days of being covered in painful pustules on the skin and in the throat. In the 18th century, it killed 400,000 people per year and was responsibile for a third of all blindness. During the 20th century it is estimated that this virus killed 3 - 5 hundred million people.
  • Too many more like this to list them all...
If the Christian God exists, he knew about the Asian Tsunami, Hurrican Katrina and Smallpox before they occured, yet he did nothing to prevent them from happening. Why not?

Imagine the person you love most in the world. Now imagine that person in a hospital bed before you wracked in pain and dying of pancreatic cancer. After attending to your loved one for several days and taking in the full extent of their suffering, a doctor walks up to you and says "You know I have a cure for that type of cancer." You think to yourself "this is fantastic! My loved one can be spared!" But when you ask the doctor to give your loved one the cure, he refuses. You beg, you plead, you take legal action, but none of it works. The doctor refuses and your loved one dies shortly afterward.

What would we say about this doctor? Would we say he was a good man? No! We would probabaly say he is a demon. But God is just like the doctor. He sits back and watches the evil and suffering that plagues humanity knowing full well that he could prevent it, yet he refuses to.

So, what can we say about God?

Seeing that you have no clue or understanding.
God did try to stop those things,
But as it is, just like people to day, Your in Rebellion against God.
If your that concerned, then why aren't you, doing anything to change your life around. No all you want to do is complain.
So you can't blame God, seeing your not doing anything in changing.
 

DennisTate

Active Member
Most monotheistic religions (certainly Christianity and Judaism) say three things about God:
  • He's omniscient and omnipotent (there is nothing he does not know or cannot do)
  • He's omnibenevolent (he is all-loving)
  • Evil and pain and suffering are real in the world
But one look at the world around us shows us that these three things cannot all be true. Consider:
  • The day after Christmas in 2004 an earthquake in the Indian Ocean caused a series of massive Tsunami that killed over a quarter million people. Parents who could not hang on to their children watched as they were drowned in the flood.
  • A year later in 2005, a hurricane ripped into the southeastern U.S. killing over 1,800 people. In New Orleans, homeowners retreated to their attics to escape the rising flood waters, only to huddle together in fear as the water rose and they watched each other drown.
  • Around 10,000 BCE, a virus came into the world that killed 20% - 60% of the people it infected (except for children, where the mortality rate was 80%). This was not a quick death, but often took days of being covered in painful pustules on the skin and in the throat. In the 18th century, it killed 400,000 people per year and was responsibile for a third of all blindness. During the 20th century it is estimated that this virus killed 3 - 5 hundred million people.
  • Too many more like this to list them all...
If the Christian God exists, he knew about the Asian Tsunami, Hurrican Katrina and Smallpox before they occured, yet he did nothing to prevent them from happening. Why not?

Imagine the person you love most in the world. Now imagine that person in a hospital bed before you wracked in pain and dying of pancreatic cancer. After attending to your loved one for several days and taking in the full extent of their suffering, a doctor walks up to you and says "You know I have a cure for that type of cancer." You think to yourself "this is fantastic! My loved one can be spared!" But when you ask the doctor to give your loved one the cure, he refuses. You beg, you plead, you take legal action, but none of it works. The doctor refuses and your loved one dies shortly afterward.

What would we say about this doctor? Would we say he was a good man? No! We would probabaly say he is a demon. But God is just like the doctor. He sits back and watches the evil and suffering that plagues humanity knowing full well that he could prevent it, yet he refuses to.

So, what can we say about God?


G-d values freedom of choice and is working out a plan for a utopian earth but........
it doesn't just happen.... the choices that we make play a huge role in the timing.


Reverend Howard Storm's Near-Death Experience


The image of the future that they gave me then, and it was their image, not one that I created, surprised me. My image had previously been sort of like Star Wars, where everything was space age, plastics, and technology.



The future that they showed me was almost no technology at all. What everybody, absolutely everybody, in this euphoric future spent most of their time doing was raising children. The chief concern of people was children, and everybody considered children to be the most precious commodity in the world.



And when a person became an adult, there was no sense of anxiety, nor hatred, nor competition.



There was this enormous sense of trust and mutual respect. If a person, in this view of the future, became disturbed, then the community of people all cared about the disturbed person falling away from the harmony of the group. Spiritually, through prayer and love, the others would elevate the afflicted person.



What people did with the rest of their time was that they gardened, with almost no physical effort. They showed me that plants, with prayer, would produce huge fruits and vegetables.



People, in unison, could control the climate of the planet through prayer. Everybody would work with mutual trust and the people would call the rain, when needed, and the sun to shine.



Animals lived with people, in harmony.

.....
Howard Storm's light being friends told him more about the new world to come. According to them, God wished to usher in the kingdom within the next two hundred years. In order to do so, God had rescinded some of the free will given to creatures, in favor of more divine control over human events. This new world order, according to Howard, will resemble some near-death descriptions of heaven. People will live in such peace and harmony and love that communication will be telepathic, travel instantaneous and the need for clothing and shelter eliminated. The lion will indeed lie down with the lamb.
 
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