Why does religion and the world leaders lie to us ?

[Left Coast]

There are at over forty authors, nine of whom were secular, who mentioned Jesus within 150 years of his death. Scholar Gary Habermas, in his Book "The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus" (p.233), listed the following: "9 authors from the New Testament - Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Author of of Hebrews, James, Peter, and Jude. 21 early Christian writers outside the NT - Clement of Rome, Ignatius, Polycarp, Martyrdom of Polycarp, Didache, Barnabus, Shepherd of Hermas, Fragments of Papias, Justin Martyr, Aristides, Athenagoras, Theophious of Antioch, Quadratus, Aristo of Pella, Melito of Sardis, Diognetus, Gospel of Peter, Apocalypse of Peter, and Epistula Apostolorum. 4 heretical writings - Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Truth, Apocryphon of John, Treatise on Resurrection. And 9 secular non-Christian sources, including Josephus, Tacticus, Pliny the Younger, Phlegon, Lucian, Celcus, Mara Bar-Serapion, Seutonius, and Thallus."

I just had a huge long debate with another Christian about this in another thread, so I'm not going to go through the whole song and dance again this soon. I'll simply say, all those sources are secondary at best, excepting Paul whose belief in Jesus came from alleged direct revelation/vision, not any earthly interaction with Jesus or anyone else, per his own testimony. Josephus' references are widely known to be later Christian interpolations, not original to him.

 

[Samantha Rinne]

So... the premise is that because Jesus wasn't as warlike as people expected, you're disappointed?

Name one person who actually made a lasting change in history by being a thug. Just one.

I can't think of any. On the other hand, most of the real improvements happened through two groups of people: inventors and peacemakers. On the other hand, from about the 5th century up to the 18th or so, history pretty much moved not at all, actually declining during the Dark Ages and moving back to normal from there, as a result of wars and barbarians taking over Rome. On the other hand, (we're approaching the number of hands of an asura) things got better as a result of the Industrial Revolution and keeping said barbarians in check, and eventually we have people like Gandhi and MLK massively changing the quality of life for people by being extremely peaceful.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Jesus wouldn't have ever give in to the Romans , before I start spilling the truth , is there anything anybody would like to say ?

Because many religious and government leaders desire power over others and they use lies to manipulate the masses into acting against their own best interests.

 

[Spartan]

I just had a huge long debate with another Christian about this in another thread, so I'm not going to go through the whole song and dance again this soon. I'll simply say, all those sources are secondary at best, excepting Paul whose belief in Jesus came from alleged direct revelation/vision, not any earthly interaction with Jesus or anyone else, per his own testimony. Josephus' references are widely known to be later Christian interpolations, not original to him.

You're mostly correct on those not included in the New Testament. The Gospels and epistles are all 1st century and Matthew, John, James, and Peter - and probably Jude - are all eyewitnesses to the resurrected Jesus. As for Josephus, only part of his reference to Jesus is considered an interpolation.

 

[Left Coast]

You're mostly correct on those not included in the New Testament. The Gospels and epistles are all 1st century and Matthew, John, James, and Peter - and probably Jude - are all eyewitnesses to the resurrected Jesus. As for Josephus, only part of his reference to Jesus is considered an interpolation.

The authors of Matthew and John are unknown, are not eyewitness accounts, and are wildly implausible as history. 1 and 2 Peter are widely regarded among scholars as pseudepigraphal. James and Jude never claim to be eyewitness accounts and provide zero biographical information about Jesus at all. I've seen the argument that we can salvage some parts of what Josephus allegedly said about Jesus, but it's not terribly compelling.

Rather than do all this here, I'd say we give it a rest for now - I can only put up with so much bad apologetics in one week. I'll be happy to engage with you in the future about it if you like.

 

[Windwalker]

Then why didn’t He militantly resist their occupation?

He did resist. There were two types of resistance movements back then against Rome. Violent resistance, and non-violent resistance. Jesus and John the Baptist were considered non-violent resisters. We know this because only the leaders of nonviolent resistance movements were executed by Rome, and their followers let go. They figured kill the head of it, and the rest will disperse. For violent resistance movements on the other hand, both the leaders and followers were rounded up and executed together. There were many nonviolent resistance movements, and a handful of violent ones recorded back then.

 

[Windwalker]

Jesus never thought anger, he thought love and kindness

Except for when he railed against hypocrisy of the religious leaders of his day, calling them a brood of vipers, children of their father the devil, yelling at them to not defile the house of God, etc. Anger is not a sin. Anger can and does lead to positive, corrective actions. It's when it leads to violent actions, is when it fails its purpose and we sin.

 

[ANEWDAWN]

How they ignore and bury in traffic I remind you .

 

[MonkeyFire]

So you dont know. Believe.

 

[ANEWDAWN]

So you dont know. Believe.

Belief is for people with unfounded facts .

I do not believe .

 

[PruePhillip]

Jesus wouldn't have ever give in to the Romans , before I start spilling the truth , is there anything anybody would like to say ?

Your statement re "giving in to the Romans" is nonsensical.
Jesus told the Jews to observe Roman law.
Jesus was non-political, and certainly, non-violent.

 

[PruePhillip]

Belief is for people with unfounded facts .

I do not believe .

Lots of people believe that once upon a time, before there even was any time,
let alone space, or energy, or physical laws or even numbers --- a gigantic
explosion happened and created you, me, birds, bees and rainbows.
This Big Bang had no cause, no reason for banging, no laws to operate within,
as if it was magic. Given that science says there are natural reasons for all
phenomena we must assume this first event was just magic - and you should
just believe it.

 

[ANEWDAWN]

Lots of people believe that once upon a time, before there even was any time,
let alone space, or energy, or physical laws or even numbers --- a gigantic
explosion happened and created you, me, birds, bees and rainbows.
This Big Bang had no cause, no reason for banging, no laws to operate within,
as if it was magic. Given that science says there are natural reasons for all
phenomena we must assume this first event was just magic - and you should
just believe it.

The rudiment of existence , the creation of energy from nothingness . A miracle that needs no religion or Gods .
A miracle that created Gods and Goddesses within ourselves . Gods and Goddesses that have the power to alter the state of the universe . Mind over matter , molding ''clay'' into our own images .

 

[Spartan]

The authors of Matthew and John are unknown, are not eyewitness accounts, and are wildly implausible as history.

The authors of Matthew and John are known, are eyewitnesses, and are attested to by the early church fathers.

The remainder of your post was not convincing.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Except for when he railed against hypocrisy of the religious leaders of his day, calling them a brood of vipers, children of their father the devil, yelling at them to not defile the house of God, etc. Anger is not a sin. Anger can and does lead to positive, corrective actions. It's when it leads to violent actions, is when it fails its purpose and we sin.

Anger is an attachment, and does not lead to any good. certainly not to enlightenment.

 

[PruePhillip]

The rudiment of existence , the creation of energy from nothingness . A miracle that needs no religion or Gods .
A miracle that created Gods and Goddesses within ourselves . Gods and Goddesses that have the power to alter the state of the universe . Mind over matter , molding ''clay'' into our own images .

Quote - a miracle that needs no religion or gods.
That's interesting. We have come half way - there
ARE miracles.

nb I do happen to believe in the Big Bang, but the
idea of something coming from nothing and for no
reason - no.

 

[Left Coast]

The authors of Matthew and John are known, are eyewitnesses, and are attested to by the early church fathers.

The remainder of your post was not convincing.

Nah, the Gospels are anonymous, sorry. They don't even claim to be eyewitness accounts themselves, not to mention that they flagrantly plagiarize each other. I recently addressed the ECFs in another thread of yours on the same topic.

Tell you what, some time soon I'll start a Gospel-related thread and you can school me on it till the cows come home. Till then I'm going to leave the conversation here.

 

[ANEWDAWN]

Quote - a miracle that needs no religion or gods.
That's interesting. We have come half way - there
ARE miracles.

nb I do happen to believe in the Big Bang, but the
idea of something coming from nothing and for no
reason - no.

A single point of information that filled a blank space .

 

[PruePhillip]

Nah, the Gospels are anonymous, sorry. They don't even claim to be eyewitness accounts themselves, not to mention that they flagrantly plagiarize each other. I recently addressed the ECFs in another thread of yours on the same topic.

Tell you what, some time soon I'll start a Gospel-related thread and you can school me on it till the cows come home. Till then I'm going to leave the conversation here.

This isn't your opinion, it's the New Received Wisdom from people who don't
believe the bible to be true, and need to Explain It Away.

Here's MY reading of it from the actual source.

Luke/Acts author was Paul's companion - he and Paul went to Rome on that
last fateful mission. AD66
Luke/Acts author wrote Luke first. He quotes Mark so Mark was well established
before AD 66, easily back in the 50's.
Earliest datable reference to Jesus as the Messiah mid '50's by Paul.
John might have written his Gospel AS IT HAPPENED.
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were names given to the early Gospels
BY THE PEOPLE WHO KNEW THEM DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY.
Stating that the "earliest documentary evidence..." says nothing about
when the first document was written, only what has been found.

 

[MonkeyFire]

Belief is for people with unfounded facts .

I do not believe .

Science is to knowledge as faith is to the truth. On top of that if you believe something you know it. Belief is the judgement of of life and those about to receive it. Even Einstien says imagination is stronger than knowledge.