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Featured Why Does Michael Lead Angels?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Maximilian, Feb 24, 2019.

  1. Maximilian

    Maximilian Energetic proclaimer of Jehovah God's Kingdom.

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    At Revelation 12:7 we learn that "Michael and his angels" fight a vital war that results in the ousting of Satan the Devil and his wicked angels from heaven.

    Revelation, likewise, describes Jesus as the Leader of an army of faithful angels. (Revelation 19:14-16) And the apostle Paul specifically mentions “the Lord Jesus” and “his powerful angels.” (2 Thessalonians 1:7; Matthew 16:27; 24:31; 1 Peter 3:22)

    So the Bible speaks of both Michael and “his angels” and Jesus and “his angels.” (Matthew 13:41)

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    These facts leave us with a series of fascinating questions:

    1. Who is Michael?
    2. Who are his angels?
    3. Why did he lead the war against Satan instead of Christ?
    4. Are there two separate groups of loyal angels, one belonging to Christ and another to Michael?
     
  2. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    Michael is Jesus in his spirit form. They are one and the same.
     
  3. jfietsam

    jfietsam Member

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    Daniel 11:45-12:1 King James Version (KJV)

    45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

    12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

    If Trump ends up getting impeached... that would just be too good... Michael Pence would be the Messiah lol
     
  4. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    What version of the Bible are you using? In this passage, you would do well to read all of Rev. 12. I see no evidence that Michael is Jesus in his spirit form. It is best not to use Peyote when studying the Bible.
     
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  5. Altfish

    Altfish Well-Known Member

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    In biblical times you couldn't have a female in charge.
     
  6. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    I'm not sure what that has to do with this, but they did have female judges.
     
  7. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    Hmmmm. Must be a lot of Bible scholars on Peyote.

    1. Jesus existed in heaven before he came to earth. Proverbs 8:22 / John 1:1,3, 14; 3:13; 8:23, 58; 17:5 / Colossians 1:15-17 / 1 John 2:13 / Revelation 3:14 all speak of Jesus’ existence before the world began, in fact before anything was created Jesus was created. Before Heaven, the heavens, the Earth, and of course, man. He is the firstborn of creation, the beginning of creation, he came from somewhere other than this world, he descended from heaven. There can be no doubt that he had a pre-human existence in heaven before he came to Earth as the man Jesus Christ.

    2. Jesus’ position in heaven before he came to the earth must have been an important one, considering he was the first of Jehovah’s creation and all things were created through him and for him. (Proverbs 8:22 / John 1:3) That means not only the heavens and earth as we know them but the angels and heaven as well. Jesus is referred to as the "word of God," this means he is the spokesperson. (John 1:1) As the spokesperson for Jehovah God we can assume that when an angel performed some important task on earth, like guiding and protecting the early Israelites from Egypt or taking the physical form of men in performing an important task, it was likely Michael as he existed before he came to earth as Jesus.

    3. The term archangel means chief of the angels. Arch means chief or principal. The term is only applied to one angel in the Bible. Michael. It is always used in the singular. There is only one archangel. The term archangel itself only appears twice throughout Scripture. At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 Paul writes of Jesus as having the voice of the archangel, and Jude 9 indicates Michael disputed with Satan over the body of Moses. So there is a connection with Jesus as well as an indication that Michael was connected in some way with the people of the exodus of Egypt.

    4. Other than Jehovah God himself only two people in the Bible are said to be in charge of or over the angels. They are Michael and Jesus Christ. The name Michael appears only five times throughout Scripture. At Daniel 10:13, 21; 12:1 / Jude 9 and Revelation 12:7.

    5. Are there any others who believe Michael and Jesus are the same? Yes, there are many. Joseph Benson, E. W. Hengstenberg, J. P. Lange, Butterworth, Cruden, Taylor, Guyse all wrote that Michael and Jesus were the same.

    Clarke's Commentary (Adam Clarke) - "Let it be observed that the word archangel is never found in the plural number in the sacred writings. There can be properly only one archangel, one chief or head of all the angelic host .... Michael is this archangel, and head of all the angelic orders .... hence by this personage, in the Apocalypse, many understand the Lord Jesus."

    W. E. Vine - the "voice of the archangel" (1 Thessalonians 4:16) is apparently "the voice of the Lord Jesus Christ" - An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 64.

    The 1599 Geneva Study Bible: Christ is the Prince of angels and head of the Church, who bears that iron rod."

    The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia: - "The earlier Protestant scholars usually identified Michael with the preincarnate Christ, finding support for their view, not only in the juxtaposition of the "child" and the archangel in Rev. 12, but also in the attributes ascribed to him in Daniel" – vol. 3, p. 2048, Eerdmans Publishing, 1984 printing.

    John Calvin: "I embrace the opinion of those who refer this to the person of Christ, because it suits the subject best to represent him as standing forward for the defense of his elect people." - J. Calvin, Commentaries On The Book Of The Prophet Daniel, trans. T. Myers (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1979), vol. 2 p. 369.

    Brown's Dictionary of the Bible - on 'Michael' and 'Angel,' both these words do sometimes refer to Christ; and also affirms that Christ is the Archangel.

    The NIV Study Bible - "The Angel of the LORD .... Traditional Christian interpretation has held that this 'angel' was a preincarnate manifestation of Christ as God's Messenger-Servant. It may be ..., the angel could speak on behalf of the One who sent him." - footnote for Gen. 16:7. Zondervan Publishing, 1985

    Smith's Bible Dictionary (says of Michael) - "Angel of the Lord. ... Christ's visible form before the incarnation. p. 40"

    Today's Dictionary of the Bible - "Angel of the Lord [angel of Jehovah] - occurs many times in the Old Testament, where in almost every instance it means a supernatural personage to be distinguished from Jehovah .... Some feel the pre-incarnate Christ is meant." Bethany House Publ., 1982, p. 39.
     
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  8. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Michael is a metaphor for the One like EL; in other words the being is trusted to speak for the Source.
    There are beings down here near Hell helping others understand; as most of us think we're saints, when we're fallen.
    Because Christ is not a name, and the new name of Christ is only a place holder as well, it is an explanation not a name...

    Yehoshua means Lord Saves, and Yahavah means Lord of Creation.
    Heaven is all the Oneness of God, and everything is One entity as such, working from different parts.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
    #8 wizanda, Feb 25, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2019
  9. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    In the book of Judges, there is Deborah. She went with a warrior and his warriors to Kedesh, and was a Prophetess and a Judge. There are likely others.
     
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  10. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    There is no need to make the simple to be complex.
     
  11. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    It isn't really that complex. God's first creation was an angel. Arch angel means chief or foremost of the angels. Before and after becoming a man Jesus was an angel. No doubt an important one. Who's the most important one? Michael.
     
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  12. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

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    I see Christianity got you confused.

    Thought Jesus was God now he is also Michael in addition to being the archangel, the holy spirit, and the son.
     
  13. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    No, just Michael.
     
  14. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

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    Then God the Father is a different person? Then what about the Son? Why did not Satan address Jesus as Michael? So many holes in this line of thinking.
     
  15. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    No holes. Jehovah is God. God means anyone or anything being worshiped, venerated. He is the father. He created Michael, so Michael is his son. They are spirit creatures. Spirit means invisible (to humans) but active. Wind, breath, mental inclination, spirit creatures. The Holy spirit is God's active force. Holy means belonging to God and spirit means invisible but active. Producing results. Michael is the only thing in all of creation that was created exclusively by Jehovah. All other things, including the heavens, earth, angels mankind and everything were created with Jehovah through his holy spirit with Michael as his master worker, and archangel. The angels were called gods in the Bible as well.

    Michael came to Earth and was born a human as Jesus. Recall that the demons always recognized him?

    Jehovah and Micheal / Jesus are not the same. Michael was created by Jehovah. Jesus was born a man on earth, though like when the angels came to earth and took human form, he was no longer the spirit creature Michael. Michael became a man. Physical form. Jesus died and Michael continued on, returning to heaven in spirit form after 3 days in the abyss. Like the angels in Noah's day their physical bodies died but their spiritual bodies returned to heaven.
     
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  16. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

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    Oh I get it you neither subscribe to mainstream Christianity nor Catholicism theology.
     
  17. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    That's correct. I don't embrace the pagan teachings the church has adopted since about halfway through the 4th century C.E. No hell, no cross, no trinity, no immortal soul, no Christmas, no Easter, no rapture.

    All of that is nonsense.
     
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  18. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

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    Ok I was just confused earlier ok makes sense now
     
  19. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    matthew 13:41 uses the term son of man. that is a reference to a person; which is also an angel, or messenger of god, a prophet.

    fyi it is forbidden to worship any created thing; including an angel, or a human.


    Deuteronomy 4:19
    And take heed, lest you lift your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun, the moon, and the stars, all the host of heaven, you feel driven to worship them and serve them, which the Lord your God has given to all the peoples under the whole heaven as a heritage.


    Deuteronomy 17:3
    who has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, either the sun or moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded,




    מֲלְאָךְ mălʼâk, mal-awk'; from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically, of God, i.e. an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher):—ambassador, angel, king, messenger.
     
    #19 Fool, Feb 25, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2019
  20. Maximilian

    Maximilian Energetic proclaimer of Jehovah God's Kingdom.

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    And what does the Bible explicitly teach?
     
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