Why Does God permit Suffering?

[Deeje]

I don't share the fallen first man scenario

If not scripture, then what do you base your beliefs on?

The “fallen first man scenario” is the whole reason why Jesus came to give his life for us.

Who is Jesus then, and why did he come to teach us about his Father...and to redeem us?

as for the suffering......that was always there and shall always be

No, it was not always there.....why would a loving God create his human children to suffer? That makes no sense.

I believe that Job’s experience shows us exactly why we suffer and who is responsible for it. It’s not God who causes the suffering but his adversary. Why does satan want to cause us trouble? He made accusations about Job’s integrity, basically saying that by God’s blessing him, he was bribed into serving him. We are all by extension, involved in the same test.

The devil said that if Job lost everything that was valuable to him, that he would curse God and leave him. When that failed, satan argued that Job would give anything to save his life. He attacked his health and waited for Job to shake his fist at God....but he endured all that to prove that all of us can endure these trials without blaming God and abandoning him. This is what we can give God that he cannot give himself....our love, our trust, and our loyalty.

God is the one who gives us the strength to endure the trials that satan brings upon us. We can all tap into his strength if we have the right attitude to suffering....and what our endurance accomplishes in accord with Proverbs 27:11.

suffering will follow us all the days of our lives

It will, as long as this world is allowed to continue. And for those who “endure to the end” salvation awaits them. (Matthew 24:13)

we can greatly reduce it but most carry on with focus to the immediate acquistion

Most people simply have no idea why suffering exists or why God permits it and will therefore blame him for it. We can only do so much to avoid suffering. Accident or illness or even mental and emotional suffering is inevitable in this world ruled by the devil....(1 John 5:19)......but understanding it’s purpose and coming through our trials successfully may sometimes mean that we will lose our life....but no life that is lost, for any reason, is ever lost to God. He will restore life along with his first purpose to have a race of obedient humans enjoying his creation here on earth forever.

That is how I see it....

 

[Thief]

I will start a thread....again...
about how Genesis means something.....different

 

[IndigoChild5559]

@Deeje

Suffering is not inherently bad. When we feel pain, it is a signal that something is wrong and needs to be fixed. People who genetically cannot feel pain are in constant danger of dying.

I think what you mean is why is there UNJUST suffering. I don't think anyone, not any religion, not science, nothing and no one has the answer to that one.

 

[Deeje]

@Deeje

Suffering is not inherently bad.

Suffering is not just physical pain. Suffering can be mental, emotional or physical. It is when that kind of pain is ongoing and relentless, making life unpleasant on a daily basis that is the topic under discussion.

When we feel pain, it is a signal that something is wrong and needs to be fixed. People who genetically cannot feel pain are in constant danger of dying.

That is clearly not the kind of pain we are talking about here.

think what you mean is why is there UNJUST suffering.

All suffering is unjust. There is no valid reason for God to include suffering in his first purpose. The kind of pain that indicates something is wrong, is definitely a good warning system that can prevent us from harming ourselves seriously or seeking help to repair a body part. But ongoing pain was never supposed to be part of man’s lot in this world. What purpose would it serve?

I don't think anyone, not any religion, not science, nothing and no one has the answer to that one.

God has the answer to everything....that is why he left us his instruction manual. It explains his purpose and why free will was allowed to derail his original plan...temporarily. We are told about the beginning and how it ends....and everything in between tells us about God’s interactions with humankind and what he requires of them....and it also tells us what he will provide for us, if we follow his instructions.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

All suffering is unjust.

I disagree. If I become a real jerk, and lose all my friends because of it and live a lonely existence, that suffering is just.

 

[Rival]

I disagree. If I become a real jerk, and lose all my friends because of it and live a lonely existence, that suffering is just.

And hopefully beneficial as a starting point for self-reflection and tshuva.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

And hopefully beneficial as a starting point for self-reflection and tshuva.

Exactly.

 

[Deeje]

All suffering is unjust. There is no valid reason for God to include suffering in his first purpose. The kind of pain that indicates something is wrong, is definitely a good warning system that can prevent us from harming ourselves seriously or seeking help to repair a body part. But ongoing pain was never supposed to be part of man’s lot in this world. What purpose would it serve?

The part you quoted was not all of what I said.....
"All suffering is unjust. There is no valid reason for God to include suffering in his first purpose. The kind of pain that indicates something is wrong, is definitely a good warning system that can prevent us from harming ourselves seriously or seeking help to repair a body part. But ongoing pain was never supposed to be part of man’s lot in this world. What purpose would it serve?"

If anyone brings about their own suffering, that has nothing to do with God. He teaches us how to live so as to avoid "unnecessary" suffering.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I disagree. If I become a real jerk, and lose all my friends because of it and live a lonely existence, that suffering is just.

I don't think @Deeje meant "self-inflicted"!
(Are you simply wanting to be disagreeable?)
Let's take that same scenario: it's not fair to your friends... being a jerk, means you made them suffer. That's not fair for them to go through.

 

[ppp]

I don't think @Deeje meant "self-inflicted"!
(Are you simply wanting to be disagreeable?)

If @Deeje didn't mean to include 'self-inflicted', then she did not give her own assertion of 'all' due consideration. It is unjust for you to castigate @IndigoChild5559 just because she took @Deeje at her word.

Let's take that same scenario: it's not fair to your friends... being a jerk, means you made them suffer. That's not fair for them to go through.

That is true. Which does not take away from her point that her own suffering is just in that hypothetical situation.

 

[metis]

If I become a real jerk,...

Whaddya mean "if"?

 

[metis]

Like us, all animals "suffer", so I have strong doubts that this is planned or ordered directly by God.

We live, we will suffer at times, and then we will die. Why is this the case? Dunno, although if none of us died, this planet would have been overrun a long time ago.

So, did God plan it that way? Sorry, but it's slightly beyond my pay grade to know the answer, but it sorta makes sense that at some point in time we gotta go.

 

[Deeje]

If @Deeje didn't mean to include 'self-inflicted', then she did not give her own assertion of 'all' due consideration. It is unjust for you to castigate @IndigoChild5559 just because she took @Deeje at her word

Semantics?.....please use some common sense. “All suffering is unjust” means exactly that. Because suffering was never meant to be part of the human experience, even the self inflicted kind is unjust. But that is not the kind of suffering that most people would even consider in a discussion like this. Most would see a “reaping what one has sown” to be deserved kind of suffering. But even that is unnecessary since God teaches us how to avoid those things.

 

[ppp]

Semantics?

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

please use some common sense.

Why? Nothing you said has been an application of common sense. I'm sorry, @Deeje, but nothing that you have said regarding your god beliefs falls under the rubric of common sense.

 

[Colt]

Suffering is part of life regardless of the fall of our celestial administrators.

 

[Jainarayan]

I am interested to see what others have to say about suffering and if it has any kind of purpose in the grand scheme of things...?

I see suffering is of two types:
1. Physical.
2. Spiritual and/or emotional.

We can’t do much about physical suffering, except through medical treatments and means, for example. I tend to think it’s part of our karma, which isn’t always punishment. It could prompt us to take positive actions. The suffering could be like that proverbial trial by fire. It could also spur someone else on to good deeds to improve their karma. Karma simply means ‘action’, and actions cause ripples.

I think of emotional and spiritual suffering as being largely of our own doing... attachment. Attachment to other people, pets, material things, life. That’s the suffering Buddhism and Hinduism seek to eliminate to achieve liberation.

 

[Deeje]

I see suffering is of two types:
1. Physical.
2. Spiritual and/or emotional.

We can’t do much about physical suffering, except through medical treatments and means, for example. I tend to think it’s part of our karma, which isn’t always punishment. It could prompt us to take positive actions. The suffering could be like that proverbial trial by fire. It could also spur someone else on to good deeds to improve their karma. Karma simply means ‘action’, and actions cause ripples.

Is karma just another way of saying “you reap what you sow” so learn from your mistakes?

I think of emotional and spiritual suffering as being largely of our own doing... attachment. Attachment to other people, pets, material things, life. That’s the suffering Buddhism and Hinduism seek to eliminate to achieve liberation.

So, from your perspective, distancing yourselves emotionally from other people, pets and material possessions frees you from the suffering that occurs when you lose them? I guess that is one way of solving the problem.....but the “how to” might be a bit difficult for those among us who are highly emotional. We don’t get to choose our emotional make up, so how do those people cope?

From the Christian perspective, the Bible indicates that we were never meant to be separated from those we love, so we have no ‘program’ for death. I don’t believe that we were supposed to get sick, or suffer from old age either.

The scriptures hold out hope of reuniting with those we have lost, by means of a resurrection, but here on earth when the Kingdom of God rules mankind permanently, and death will never need to occur again. I don’t believe that it was ever God’s intention for us to live anywhere but here on earth.....in paradise conditions, forever.......I don’t see this life as a training ground for the next life.

The uncertainty of what is beyond death is also frightening for many people, especially if they believe in a hell of fiery torment. The Bible does not mention such a place.

Do you have a place where the wicked suffer eternally?

 

[Jainarayan]

Is karma just another way of saying “you reap what you sow” so learn from your mistakes?

Only partly. Karma isn’t “paybacks are a *****”. The guy who slashes your tires may not necessarily have a blow out on the interstate. Karma accumulates and dissipates over countless lifetimes.

So, from your perspective, distancing yourselves emotionally from other people, pets and material possessions frees you from the suffering that occurs when you lose them? I guess that is one way of solving the problem.....but the “how to” might be a bit difficult for those among us who are highly emotional. We don’t get to choose our emotional make up, so how do those people cope?

That’s where spiritual and mental discipline comes into play. Monks, yogis, saints, and others spend their lives in contemplation and meditation. Most of us never attain that level of detachment.

From the Christian perspective, the Bible indicates that we were never meant to be separated from those we love, so we have no ‘program’ for death. I don’t believe that we were supposed to get sick, or suffer from old age either.

We have a saying that we are not our bodies. Our bodies are temporary vessels for our true essence, the “soul”, if you will. Not to say the body is worthless because it is a repository for the soul when it takes birth.

The scriptures hold out hope of reuniting with those we have lost, by means of a resurrection, but here on earth when the Kingdom of God rules mankind permanently, and death will never need to occur again. I don’t believe that it was ever God’s intention for us to live anywhere but here on earth.....in paradise conditions, forever.......I don’t see this life as a training ground for the next life.

We have stories in our scriptures of certain people being able to choose their birth for some reason, and to remember a past life, and a vow they took to be reborn. Two that come to mind are Draupadi and Shikhandi. Draupadi was a woman who asked Shiva for a favor that he was not able to grant in Draupadi’s life but promised she would obtain the favor in a future life.

Shikhandi was a woman who was jilted by her intended and vowed revenge in a future life. She was reborn as a man who was instrumental in the death of the person who jilted her.

So in a way, we have examples of people being reunited. Sometimes a soul is born into the same family line for generations. Or there’s connection between people that is stronger than usual. They may have been connected in a past life. I have that sort of relationship with someone.

The uncertainty of what is beyond death is also frightening for many people, especially if they believe in a hell of fiery torment. The Bible does not mention such a place.

Do you have a place where the wicked suffer eternally?

No, we have no such place. Because no one is permanently wicked or permanently righteous. Karma isn’t only punishment. Even the most evil persons are guaranteed moksha, liberation at some time. There’s a verse in the Bhagavad Gita that says even the most vile sinner is to be considered righteous if his mind and heart are focused on God. In fact, in my tradition if a person remembers God at the time of death, the person is granted moksha and will be with God.