Why Does God permit Suffering?

[Deeje]

What Some Believe

Hindus
view suffering as a consequence of a person’s actions, committed in either this life or a past one. A person can reach moksha—a release from the cycle of rebirths— through achieving a state of mind that is detached from temporal things.


Muslims
view suffering as both a punishment for sin and a test of faith. Tragedies are a reminder “to remain grateful to God for all our blessings and cognizant that we must support those in need,” says Dr. Sayyid Syeed, president of the Islamic Society of North America.


Jewish tradition
holds that suffering results from one’s own actions. Some Jews say that there will be a resurrection, after which justice will be rendered to the innocent who suffered. Kabbalistic (mystical) Judaism teaches reincarnation, which gives a person repeated opportunities to atone for his errors.


Buddhists
believe that suffering is experienced over many lifetimes, a cycle of rebirths that continue until a person’s negative actions, emotions, and cravings cease. By means of wisdom, virtuous works, and mental discipline, a person can reach nirvana—a state in which all suffering has ceased.


Confucianists
attribute most suffering to “human failure and error,” says A Dictionary of Comparative Religion. Confucian doctrine recognizes that while suffering can be reduced through virtuous living, much of it is caused by “spiritual agencies beyond man’s control. In such cases, man must stoically accept the decrees of Fate.”


Some tribal religions
attribute suffering to witchcraft. According to these beliefs, witches can bring good luck or disaster and their activities can be tempered through various rituals. Thus, the rites and medicines of witch doctors are believed to counteract the work of witches when a person suffers from illness.


Christians
trace suffering to the sin of the first two humans, as described in the Bible book of Genesis. However, many denominations have embellished that teaching. For example, some Catholics say that personal suffering can be ‘offered up to God’ to request that he benefit the church or that he apply that suffering toward the salvation of someone else.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102020045

How do we know which path to choose?
Which one teaches the truth?
Is there a purpose to suffering?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What Some Believe

Hindus
view suffering as a consequence of a person’s actions, committed in either this life or a past one. A person can reach moksha—a release from the cycle of rebirths— through achieving a state of mind that is detached from temporal things.


Muslims
view suffering as both a punishment for sin and a test of faith. Tragedies are a reminder “to remain grateful to God for all our blessings and cognizant that we must support those in need,” says Dr. Sayyid Syeed, president of the Islamic Society of North America.


Jewish tradition
holds that suffering results from one’s own actions. Some Jews say that there will be a resurrection, after which justice will be rendered to the innocent who suffered. Kabbalistic (mystical) Judaism teaches reincarnation, which gives a person repeated opportunities to atone for his errors.


Buddhists
believe that suffering is experienced over many lifetimes, a cycle of rebirths that continue until a person’s negative actions, emotions, and cravings cease. By means of wisdom, virtuous works, and mental discipline, a person can reach nirvana—a state in which all suffering has ceased.


Confucianists
attribute most suffering to “human failure and error,” says A Dictionary of Comparative Religion. Confucian doctrine recognizes that while suffering can be reduced through virtuous living, much of it is caused by “spiritual agencies beyond man’s control. In such cases, man must stoically accept the decrees of Fate.”


Some tribal religions
attribute suffering to witchcraft. According to these beliefs, witches can bring good luck or disaster and their activities can be tempered through various rituals. Thus, the rites and medicines of witch doctors are believed to counteract the work of witches when a person suffers from illness.


Christians
trace suffering to the sin of the first two humans, as described in the Bible book of Genesis. However, many denominations have embellished that teaching. For example, some Catholics say that personal suffering can be ‘offered up to God’ to request that he benefit the church or that he apply that suffering toward the salvation of someone else.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102020045

How do we know which path to choose?
Which one teaches the truth?
Is there a purpose to suffering?

After reading all of this, I'd pick Buddhism (from what I gather-suffering from actions and past/present/future doesn't exist) and its close-shoots. But it looks like either these descriptions are completely off (except for yours, being the OP). Maybe a Hindu next. Jewish probably. I do like how JW believe if you're not with christ you're dead as a doornail. It's a lot better than some other christian denominations that believe in some sort of an afterlife... I'm not sure of Muslims though.

Best to ask the practitioners-hope some reply.

 

[danieldemol]

How do we know which path to choose?

Choose none of them is always an option

Which one teaches the truth?
Is there a purpose to suffering?

The truth is that physical suffering is part of chemical decomposition and has no inherent purpose

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

Hi, I think God created suffering because God is evil and doesn't care really because God has nothing to lose, can get away with anything, and suffering is just one of many inventions that can just as easily be deleted as if they never existed. Many excuses and purposes can be provided, but ultimately, God never needed to create anything, let alone suffering and all the horrible things that God has made in particular. Even if one makes God out to be something which has somehow not created all things bad and horrible in our experiences, then permitting such still makes God complicit, just like you might be blamed if you could stop a person from abusing a child right before your eyes but you do nothing at all even though it would be very easy in this hypothetical situation to do something and you have in some cases supposedly done something also. You would be counted as "bad" even for doing nothing when you could. It won't matter though what you believe, since if one ends up believing in a concept of God that is not actually responsible for evil, ultimately unconditioned to do so and without cause (as is necessary for a God that is free and creates from nothing and is not bound to any rules or authority or dominated and is truly the Top and Ultimate), it will make no difference in at least your life (most likely) regarding the evil things you will be forced to witness and experience until you eventually pass away, and have to look forward to potentially all the more suffering and horrors that "something" comes up with.

 

[Regiomontanus]

What Some Believe

Hindus
view suffering as a consequence of a person’s actions, committed in either this life or a past one. A person can reach moksha—a release from the cycle of rebirths— through achieving a state of mind that is detached from temporal things.


Muslims
view suffering as both a punishment for sin and a test of faith. Tragedies are a reminder “to remain grateful to God for all our blessings and cognizant that we must support those in need,” says Dr. Sayyid Syeed, president of the Islamic Society of North America.


Jewish tradition
holds that suffering results from one’s own actions. Some Jews say that there will be a resurrection, after which justice will be rendered to the innocent who suffered. Kabbalistic (mystical) Judaism teaches reincarnation, which gives a person repeated opportunities to atone for his errors.


Buddhists
believe that suffering is experienced over many lifetimes, a cycle of rebirths that continue until a person’s negative actions, emotions, and cravings cease. By means of wisdom, virtuous works, and mental discipline, a person can reach nirvana—a state in which all suffering has ceased.


Confucianists
attribute most suffering to “human failure and error,” says A Dictionary of Comparative Religion. Confucian doctrine recognizes that while suffering can be reduced through virtuous living, much of it is caused by “spiritual agencies beyond man’s control. In such cases, man must stoically accept the decrees of Fate.”


Some tribal religions
attribute suffering to witchcraft. According to these beliefs, witches can bring good luck or disaster and their activities can be tempered through various rituals. Thus, the rites and medicines of witch doctors are believed to counteract the work of witches when a person suffers from illness.


Christians
trace suffering to the sin of the first two humans, as described in the Bible book of Genesis. However, many denominations have embellished that teaching. For example, some Catholics say that personal suffering can be ‘offered up to God’ to request that he benefit the church or that he apply that suffering toward the salvation of someone else.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102020045

How do we know which path to choose?
Which one teaches the truth?
Is there a purpose to suffering?

As to Christianity, what does "the sin of the first two humans" means? You and I are both followers of Christ but I have a feeling we may not define sin the same way.

 

[Etritonakin]

Suffering is an absolute reality check -for the purpose of making us gods in a relatively very short time -because we are to become masters of reality -not simply content humans.

It is similar to an industrial process which is necessary for a time -but not considered once a thing is produced. God describes himself as a refiner's fire. Once a thing is refined, it remains -and the fire is no longer necessary.

We -born new and ignorant -experience it so we understand the nature of reality -but more so live the reality of it going wrong.
It is the only way the possibility of evil can be COMPLETELY eradicated.
We can be told -and understand -but nothing brings a point home like experience.

Then -when we are no longer ignorant or tempted by the unknown -everything which went wrong will be corrected -and then no longer called to mind.

"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind."

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

As to Christianity, what does "the sin of the first two humans" means? You and I are both followers of Christ but I have a feeling we may not define sin the same way.

I think they are talking about the famous "Original Sin" event that some thing "Brought Sin into the World" and others also think "makes all people sinful, born into sin, in a world full of sin" and that "Sin leads to death", and that Adam and Eve "Lost their first state due to disobedience to God's command and sinning by disobeying God and eating of the prohibited tree". I'm not entirely sure, but Deeje may be a Jehovah's Witness, and they are not entirely the same as other mainstream factions of Christianity such as the Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestant branches. Of all the Christian types, I am probably closest to a Calvinist and a Unitarian (which was originally a Calvinist branch). In the theology of Calvinism (as far as I'm aware), God selects who will be good or not, and we are made good by the grace of God and if we aren't good then that is "God's Will" and basically God's curse upon a person that they are not selected to be good or it isn't God's will that they go aright and instead are doomed in their sinful existence. Personally though, I don't believe in original sin or an innate sin-state for all newborns, nor the necessity of newborns to be baptized in Christian rites, but instead I believe that they are innocent until they have committed crimes, and God remains available for people to ask for forgiveness from and ask to be healed and corrected and made good and free from sinful actions, thoughts, behaviors, conduct, or whatever else is wrong, and without God's willing it or doing it, this is impossible for people to achieve, and if they seem to achieve it (even without ever asking God for such) it is God's grace upon them and God's will that they be spared from being agents of evil and furthermore may be spared from the consequences or punishments due to not having done bad things so not warranting a punishment or penalties on Judgment Day where the deeds are brought up and people receive their "just rewards".

 

[Trailblazer]

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102020045

How do we know which path to choose?
Which one teaches the truth?
Is there a purpose to suffering?

Suffering, my favorite subject. Not really, but because most of my life has been suffering and still is, I have an opinion on this subject, and how it is related to our own actions vs. God.

Since you did not list the Baha’i view, I am going to present it in separate quotes which I will post on separate posts, because I want to comment upon these quotes, how I agree and disagree with them.

Meanwhile, of all the religious views you listed I believe there is truth to several of them.

I believe there is some truth to the Hinduism view, that suffering is a consequence of a person’s actions committed in this life.

I believe there is truth to the Muslim view suffering as both a punishment for sin and a test of faith. Tragedies are a reminder “to remain grateful to God for all our blessings and cognizant that we must support those in need.”

I believe there is some truth to the Jewish view that suffering results from one’s own actions.

All that said, I do not think that any of these views are sufficient to explain why -- if God is omnipotent and loving -- God designed a world in which humans and animals have to suffer, and particularly why some people suffer so much more than others, often through no fault of their own, whereas some people suffer hardly at all.

I have not found any answers in any scriptures, including my own, that are sufficient to answer these questions, even though many religious people believe they have "the answers." Spare me the pain of it all the religious apologetics, as the undue suffering of humans and animals would be enough reason for me to be an atheist, if I was not so sure that God exists. However just because I believe that God exists does not mean I am convinced that God has all the qualities believers attribute to God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Hi, I think God created suffering because God is evil and doesn't care really because God has nothing to lose, can get away with anything, and suffering is just one of many inventions that can just as easily be deleted as if they never existed. Many excuses and purposes can be provided, but ultimately, God never needed to create anything, let alone suffering and all the horrible things that God has made in particular.

I am sure I am going to catch hell from my fellow Baha'is, but on a purely logical basis I have to say that I agree with you. Stay tuned, because I am going to present some Baha'i passages and how I agree and disagree with them. My husband, who has been a Baha'i for 55 years, will not even listen to me rant, so I have no choice but to let my hair down here.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

I am sure I am going to catch hell from my fellow Baha'is, but on a purely logical basis I have to say that I agree with you. Stay tuned, because I am going to present some Baha'i passages and how I agree and disagree with them. My husband, who has been a Baha'i for 55 years, will not even listen to me rant, so I have no choice but to let my hair down here.

Haha, go for it! Here or at my Temple! Wherever you wish that you feel is appropriate! I don't think there is any way to truly acknowledge God except to admit to God's production of evil and that we are helpless against it, that being a realization of true "Surrender", even unwillingly, but just as a matter of fact.

 

[Deeje]

After reading all of this, I'd pick Buddhism (from what I gather-suffering from actions and past/present/future doesn't exist) and its close-shoots.

Its a fascinating subject, because if suffering, (leading to death) was meant to be part of our natural life, it would feel.......well, "natural"...but I don't know of too many people (sadists excluded) who actually enjoy pain and the suffering it brings in varying degrees to so many people...physical, mental and emotional.
And no one in relatively good health wants to suffer and die.

So the question is....not which one you or I would pick...but which one God would pick?
There is but one truth in the world.....so what is it and how do we find it?

Why do we suffer? And will it ever end? Does one have to die to this life to gain relief?

I do like how JW believe if you're not with christ you're dead as a doornail. It's a lot better than some other christian denominations that believe in some sort of an afterlife....

The Bible itself teaches that we can be "dead" even though we are physically alive. This is being spiritually dead....a person who has no time or inclination toward "spiritual" things. This is a person who has no time for God, so basically God has no time for them.....why would he?

The Bible does not support a "hell" of eternal torment because it is contrary to God's perfect justice.....and besides, what purpose would it serve? Eternal life is reserved for the righteous, not the wicked. In order to torment people, they have to be alive.

Best to ask the practitioners-hope some reply.

I am interested to see what others have to say about suffering and if it has any kind of purpose in the grand scheme of things...?

 

[Deeje]

Choose none of them is always an option

In order for there to be truth there has to be an option.....or at least an explanation. Since all sentient creatures can feel pain to varying degrees, why is suffering considered a natural part of life? Why would God intentionally do that? According to scripture, God is about healing and recovery, not suffering and death.

The truth is that physical suffering is part of chemical decomposition and has no inherent purpose

So God just threw a bunch of chemicals in the air and sentient creatures somehow just popped into existence and suffering was an intentional part of the process of their natural demise...? And you know this....how?

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

You wrote:
"Its a fascinating subject, because if suffering, (leading to death) was meant to be part of our natural life, it would feel.......well, "natural"...but I don't know of too many people (sadists excluded) who actually enjoy pain and the suffering it brings in varying degrees to so many people...physical, mental and emotional."

I don't know, I mean, a lot of things are called "natural" such as pooping, cramping, vomiting, having to go pee. People seem to benefit from physical exertion, become atrophied and die by a lack of exercise or motion or ability to move, yet physical exertion can also cause a lot of pain and difficulties. Furthermore, it is considered natural that people eat, but people destroy to eat, harm to eat, mash things in their teeth and even chewing can be a chore. Is any of this enjoyable? So who gave people the idea that "life" was enjoyable or supposed to be? There is no indication whatsoever that anything was really made particularly lastingly enjoyable for practically anything at all.

Nor, does it apparently seem to be stated in the scriptures, even the scripture that people in the West look most to in this regard, that man was created to "enjoy" and "not suffer" and that God's intention for man to just be enjoying themselves non-stop failed due to God's planting of a tree and allowing a talking snake to make a mess of everything.

Wouldn't someone who believes such a thing be making God out to be some sort of clown? Well, you're in luck, because I actually consider the "clown" a symbol of God and God's agents (such as myself), and haven't you noticed how clowns so often suffer, and we laugh at their suffering and misfortune?

 

[danieldemol]

So God just threw a bunch of chemicals in the air

Um... air is composed of various chemicals.

Although the picture i get of a person throwing things appears oddly revealing of what you believe God to be like considering you are allegedly non-trinitarian. If God is a person who throws i see no reason that person can't have been Jesus (No i don't believe in trinitarianism, just pointing out the apparent inconsistency in your personification of God).

...and sentient creatures somehow just popped into existence

That sounds like God magic, things just popping into existence. Descent with modification via random gene mutation coupled with environmental selection is far less magical than that.

and suffering was an intentional part of the process of their natural demise...? And you know this....how?

I don't know if God intended us to suffer, but I do believe it was in God's power to prevent that suffering, which God did not prevent as evidenced by the fossil record.

 

[Trailblazer]

THE BENEFITS OF GOD TO MAN​

4 Avenue de Camöens,
October 27th
​

God alone ordereth all things and is all-powerful. Why then does He send trials to His servants?

The trials of man are of two kinds. (a) The consequences of his own actions. If a man eats too much, he ruins his digestion; if he takes poison he becomes 50 ill or dies. If a person gambles he will lose his money; if he drinks too much he will lose his equilibrium. All these sufferings are caused by the man himself, it is quite clear therefore that certain sorrows are the result of our own deeds. (b) Other sufferings there are, which come upon the Faithful of God. Consider the great sorrows endured by Christ and by His apostles!

Those who suffer most, attain to the greatest perfection.

Those who declare a wish to suffer much for Christ’s sake must prove their sincerity; those who proclaim their longing to make great sacrifices can only prove their truth by their deeds. Job proved the fidelity of his love for God by being faithful through his great adversity, as well as during the prosperity of his life. The apostles of Christ who steadfastly bore all their trials and sufferings—did they not prove their faithfulness? Was not their endurance the best proof?

These griefs are now ended.

Caiaphas lived a comfortable and happy life while Peter’s life was full of sorrow and trial; which of these two is the more enviable? Assuredly we should choose the present state of Peter, for he possesses immortal life whilst Caiaphas has won eternal shame. The trials of Peter tested his fidelity. Tests are benefits from God, for which we should thank Him. Grief and sorrow do not come to us by chance, they are sent to us by the Divine Mercy for our own perfecting.

While a man is happy he may forget his God; but when grief comes and sorrows overwhelm him, then 51 will he remember his Father who is in Heaven, and who is able to deliver him from his humiliations.

Men who suffer not, attain no perfection. The plant most pruned by the gardeners is that one which, when the summer comes, will have the most beautiful blossoms and the most abundant fruit.

The labourer cuts up the earth with his plough, and from that earth comes the rich and plentiful harvest. The more a man is chastened, the greater is the harvest of spiritual virtues shown forth by him. A soldier is no good General until he has been in the front of the fiercest battle and has received the deepest wounds.

The prayer of the prophets of God has always been, and still is: Oh God, I long to lay down my life in the path to Thee! I desire to shed my blood for Thee, and to make the supreme sacrifice.

Paris Talks, pp. 49-51

*************************************

Let’s look at some of these statements:

God alone ordereth all things and is all-powerful. Why then does He send trials to His servants?

Who says that God sends trials to His servants? Don't we have enough trials without God sending more? I do not have to believe that because I believe that only a Messenger of God can speak for what God does. Abdu'l-Baha is not a Messenger of God.

The trials of man are of two kinds. (a) The consequences of his own actions. If a man eats too much, he ruins his digestion; if he takes poison he becomes ill or dies. If a person gambles he will lose his money; if he drinks too much he will lose his equilibrium. All these sufferings are caused by the man himself, it is quite clear therefore that certain sorrows are the result of our own deeds.

I believe that man is mostly responsible for his own actions so man brings on a lot of his own suffering.

(b) Other sufferings there are, which come upon the Faithful of God. Consider the great sorrows endured by Christ and by His apostles!

This is another kind of suffering but it is not ALL the other suffering that exists in this world. What about atheists who do not even believe in God? Mind you, I have no problem suffering in the path of God, doing God’s work, but that is not the kind of suffering I have endured nor is my suffering the kind he mentioned above (the consequences of my own actions). No, my suffering is of a third category not listed here, but Abdu’l-Baha did cover that in another passage:

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.” Some Answered Questions, p. 248

And WHY is man forced to endure them? Because God set it up that way.

Those who suffer most, attain to the greatest perfection.

Men who suffer not, attain no perfection. The plant most pruned by the gardeners is that one which, when the summer comes, will have the most beautiful blossoms and the most abundant fruit.

The labourer cuts up the earth with his plough, and from that earth comes the rich and plentiful harvest. The more a man is chastened, the greater is the harvest of spiritual virtues shown forth by him. A soldier is no good General until he has been in the front of the fiercest battle and has received the deepest wounds.

I do not believe that is true at all. I know many Baha’is who have hardly suffered at all in life, especially compared to me, and I consider them much more spiritual than I am (although ultimately only God can judge that). Blossoms? I do not have any blossoms; I suffered so much emotionally I was never even able to have children! Give me a break.

Tests are benefits from God, for which we should thank Him. Grief and sorrow do not come to us by chance, they are sent to us by the Divine Mercy for our own perfecting.

That is easy to say if you are not the one facing constant tests, so much so that you are so immobilized you cannot even serve your own faith. And who is he to say God sends these tests, he does not speak for God because he is not a Messenger of God, so that is just how he interprets (or should I say adds on) to the Writings of Baha’u’llah.

I spent 10 years of my life hating God because my older brother who is a Baha’i told me God was sending me tests to “teach me a lesson”, and he got that idea from these Baha’i Writings, although he added his own interpretation. He even told my sister who was dying of cancer that God was teaching her a lesson because she was too materialistic! Unfortunately, back in those years I was not very knowledgeable about the Baha'i Faith like I am now, and I felt very guilty, so I just believed what my brother said was true.

These griefs are now ended.

Sure they have ended, finally, after we die and go to the spiritual world, after about 80 years of suffering through this world, and now I am supposed to want to spend an eternity in heaven with the “loving God.” No thanks.

Oh wait! Those people who did not suffer much will be happy in heaven with their loving God, the God they believed is loving since they did not suffer much; and even if they did suffer (like Joe Biden losing is wife and daughter and then his son), they had something to offset that suffering, like family and friends.

Clearly, suffering is not even close to being equally distributed and that is my primary complaint because I view that as an injustice, and God is supposed to be just.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Hindus
view suffering as a consequence of a person’s actions, committed in either this life or a past one. A person can reach moksha - a release from the cycle of rebirths - through achieving a state of mind that is detached from temporal things.

I think you have correctly stated the general Hindu belief. Whatever path a Hindu might be following (Janana, Bhakti, Karma - Knowledge, Devotion, Action), deliverance comes only with detachment (Anasakti, Asakti is attachment). Attachments only bring sorrow.
However, I am an atheist Hindu. I believe in 'Dharma' (fulfillment of duties and engaging in righteous action). I deny existence of God, soul, rebirth and many other things.

Stay tuned, because I am going to present some Baha'i passages and how I agree and disagree with them.

Kindly do not post the whole of Kitab-i-Aqdas translation with its sayeth, bareth, defeateth, winneth, walketh, sleepeth, etc. It is a bit tiring.
That your husband differs from your views should not be a reason to post all hell here.

 

[Deeje]

Hi, I think God created suffering because God is evil and doesn't care really because God has nothing to lose, can get away with anything, and suffering is just one of many inventions that can just as easily be deleted as if they never existed.

This basically tells me that you have no knowledge of God and have already judged him. If he exists and he has all the information you need about everything recorded in his word, but you just prefer to ignore all that and write him off as some kind of heartless tyrant....how do you think he views you?
How did you come to your conclusions....? Obviously not by studying the Bible.

Many excuses and purposes can be provided, but ultimately, God never needed to create anything, let alone suffering and all the horrible things that God has made in particular.

There are excuses and there are reasons...please don't confuse them. Did God make suffering a natural part of life? Was it intended to be an ongoing part of our existence? If you cared to know, it is all very explainable. But I have a feeling that I would be wasting my breath....its easier to condemn in ignorance than to judge with a bit of effort to find out the truth.

Even if one makes God out to be something which has somehow not created all things bad and horrible in our experiences, then permitting such still makes God complicit,

Could there be a purpose to it? Are you a parent? If your child was born with a severe genetic defect and the surgeons told you that a series of painful operations would correct the defect, leading to a normal life for your child, would you refuse the surgeries because they were painful? Or would you see the pain as a necessary part of the process of repairing the damage?

You would be counted as "bad" even for doing nothing when you could.

How do you know that God is "doing nothing"? If you bothered to do some research, you would find that everything that has transpired since man transgressed in Eden, has had a purpose that will lead to humans never having to experience pain again. There is a short term solution to some problems, but they may surface again down the track. But the long term solution is the way to go when you want a problem solved permanently. Which one do you think God chose?

It won't matter though what you believe, since if one ends up believing in a concept of God that is not actually responsible for evil, ultimately unconditioned to do so and without cause (as is necessary for a God that is free and creates from nothing and is not bound to any rules or authority or dominated and is truly the Top and Ultimate), it will make no difference in at least your life (most likely) regarding the evil things you will be forced to witness and experience until you eventually pass away, and have to look forward to potentially all the more suffering and horrors that "something" comes up with.

You don't know God at all, do you? He has the power to restore life as easily as he can take it.
No one who has experienced pain or trauma will ever have it come back to haunt them. This promise was part of the restoration prophesies in Isaiah....

Isaiah 65:16-17...
"....For the former distresses will be forgotten;
They will be concealed from my eyes.

17 For look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be called to mind,
Nor will they come up into the heart."

God can allow his earthy children to "fill the earth" as he intended, but because of the abuse of free will in the beginning, man was permitted to live life his way to show him what would result.
All pain and suffering is the result of man's decisions, not God's. He will not prevent that pain because it is self-inflicted and serves to prove that life without guidance from the Creator always ends badly.

We have never had what Adam started out with.....the prospect of living forever in paradise conditions on this earth.....this is where God put us, and he intended it to be our permanent home. He can allow humans to go to the nth degree in proving their incompetence in self-determination....because he knew that they would fail. They could not be told, but they could be shown....that they are not the best judges of what is good and bad, We are living the greatest object lesson that will ever be permitted on this earth. It will never have to be repeated, because precedents are created for all time to come. No rebel will ever be able to challenge God's rightful Sovereignty again.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Its a fascinating subject, because if suffering, (leading to death) was meant to be part of our natural life, it would feel.......well, "natural"...but I don't know of too many people (sadists excluded) who actually enjoy pain and the suffering it brings in varying degrees to so many people...physical, mental and emotional.

And no one in relatively good health wants to suffer and die.

I feel it is part of the natural life just our inclinations to not want to suffer makes us loose sight that everything is temporal.

So the question is....not which one you or I would pick...but which one God would pick?
There is but one truth in the world.....so what is it and how do we find it?

It sounds like something you would personally look for when it comes to god. I figure everyone has their own path in the world, and of course, god is not the destination on their spiritual GPS.

Why do we suffer? And will it ever end? Does one have to die to this life to gain relief?

Well, I believe we die and that's it. So, if there isn't a resurrection for believers, pain would still be relieved one way or another.

Like pleasure, I don't feel the suffering will end. I don't promote it but I try not to take for granted that it would some day.

The Bible itself teaches that we can be "dead" even though we are physically alive. This is being spiritually dead....a person who has no time or inclination toward "spiritual" things. This is a person who has no time for God, so basically God has no time for them.....why would he?

I wouldn't know how to answer that. It depends on the religion(s) and how they view the human condition. I can't define spiritual experiences for other people to really know their inclinations and what they've seen and haven't seen based on their belief or disbelief. I find that reasoning very offputting.

The Bible does not support a "hell" of eternal torment because it is contrary to God's perfect justice.....and besides, what purpose would it serve? Eternal life is reserved for the righteous, not the wicked. In order to torment people, they have to be alive.

I was never taught hell-fire. At the church, I never really hear about afterlife if near to none. We were more focused on communion and this life. Unfortunately, not everyone was as fortunate as I was.

I am interested to see what others have to say about suffering and if it has any kind of purpose in the grand scheme of things...?

I think they all do. I like the Dharmic (Buddhist) view though. No time line just state of being. Spiritual progress through mental cultivation and actions not on faith and external ideas, people, and so forth. The details, I'm not sure since I don't practice but it makes more scene than any afterlife however defined.

 

[SigurdReginson]

Personally, I'm of the impression that suffering is a negative pressure one deals with in life. It can be physical or psychological. It can be caused by us, by others, or by our environment or situation (s).

The best way to tackle suffering, I've found, is in facing it head on. Tackle the root of the problem, and work on repairing it's damage. The sooner the problem is addressed, the sooner the healing process can begin, and the less long term damage is done.

Sometimes there is no way to attack suffering directly, and this requires long term planning. Otherwise, there are just some elements of suffering in life we are forced to have to accept (such as a nagging back pain that just gets worse with age, or dealing with a toxic mother/father of a shared child).

It's pretty simple.

 

[Trailblazer]

PAIN AND SORROW
November 22nd
​

In this world we are influenced by two sentiments, Joy and Pain.

Joy gives us wings! In times of joy our strength is more vital, our intellect keener, and our understanding less clouded. We seem better able to cope with the world and to find our sphere of usefulness. But when sadness visits us we become weak, our strength leaves us, our comprehension is dim and our intelligence veiled. The actualities of life seem to elude our grasp, the eyes of our spirits fail to discover the sacred mysteries, and we become even as dead beings.

There is no human being untouched by these two influences; but all the sorrow and the grief that exist come from the world of matter—the spiritual world bestows only the joy!

If we suffer it is the outcome of material things, and all the trials and troubles come from this world of illusion.

For instance, a merchant may lose his trade and depression ensues. A workman is dismissed and starvation stares him in the face. A farmer has a bad harvest, anxiety fills his mind. A man builds a house which is burnt to the ground and he is straightway homeless, ruined, and in despair.

All these examples are to show you that the trials which beset our every step, all our sorrow, pain, shame and grief, are born in the world of matter; whereas the spiritual Kingdom never causes sadness. A man living with his thoughts in this Kingdom knows perpetual joy. The ills all flesh is heir to do not pass him by, but they only touch the surface of his life, the depths are calm and serene.

Today, humanity is bowed down with trouble, sorrow and grief, no one escapes; the world is wet with tears; but, thank God, the remedy is at our doors. Let us turn our hearts away from the world of matter and live in the spiritual world! It alone can give us freedom! If we are hemmed in by difficulties we have only to call upon God, and by His great Mercy we shall be helped.

If sorrow and adversity visit us, let us turn our faces to the Kingdom and heavenly consolation will be outpoured.

If we are sick and in distress let us implore God’s healing, and He will answer our prayer.

When our thoughts are filled with the bitterness of this world, let us turn our eyes to the sweetness of God’s compassion and He will send us heavenly calm! If we are imprisoned in the material world, our spirit can soar into the Heavens and we shall be free indeed!

When our days are drawing to a close let us think of the eternal worlds, and we shall be full of joy!

You see all round you proofs of the inadequacy of material things—how joy, comfort, peace and consolation are not to be found in the transitory things of the world. Is it not then foolishness to refuse to seek these treasures where they may be found? The doors of the spiritual Kingdom are open to all, and without is absolute darkness.

Thank God that you in this assembly have this knowledge, for in all the sorrows of life you can obtain supreme consolation. If your days on earth are numbered, you know that everlasting life awaits you. If material anxiety envelops you in a dark cloud, spiritual radiance lightens your path. Verily, those whose minds are illumined by the Spirit of the Most High have supreme consolation.

I myself was in prison forty years—one year alone would have been impossible to bear—nobody survived that imprisonment more than a year! But, thank God, during all those forty years I was supremely happy! Every day, on waking, it was like hearing good tidings, and every night infinite joy was mine. Spirituality was my comfort, and turning to God was my greatest joy. If this had not been so, do you think it possible that I could have lived through those forty years in prison?

Thus, spirituality is the greatest of God’s gifts, and ‘Life Everlasting’ means ‘Turning to God’. May you, one and all, increase daily in spirituality, may you be strengthened in all goodness, may you be helped more and more by the Divine consolation, be made free by the Holy Spirit of God, and may the power of the Heavenly Kingdom live and work among you.

This is my earnest desire, and I pray to God to grant you this favour.

Paris Talks, pp. 109-112

*******************************************

Let’s look at some of these statements:

In this world we are influenced by two sentiments, Joy and Pain.

Joy gives us wings! In times of joy our strength is more vital, our intellect keener, and our understanding less clouded. We seem better able to cope with the world and to find our sphere of usefulness. But when sadness visits us we become weak, our strength leaves us, our comprehension is dim and our intelligence veiled. The actualities of life seem to elude our grasp, the eyes of our spirits fail to discover the sacred mysteries, and we become even as dead beings.

There is no human being untouched by these two influences; but all the sorrow and the grief that exist come from the world of matter—the spiritual world bestows only the joy!

I agree with all of the above, and there is no human being untouched by these two influences. However some human beings are more touched by joy and others are more touched by pain. That is not equitable and if it is through no fault of their own, I cannot see that as fair and just.

Then there is this claim about the spiritual world bestowing only joy, but we are not living in the spiritual world yet, so it cannot bestow anything.

If we suffer it is the outcome of material things, and all the trials and troubles come from this world of illusion.

For instance, a merchant may lose his trade and depression ensues. A workman is dismissed and starvation stares him in the face. A farmer has a bad harvest, anxiety fills his mind. A man builds a house which is burnt to the ground and he is straightway homeless, ruined, and in despair.

All these examples are to show you that the trials which beset our every step, all our sorrow, pain, shame and grief, are born in the world of matter; whereas the spiritual Kingdom never causes sadness. A man living with his thoughts in this Kingdom knows perpetual joy. The ills all flesh is heir to do not pass him by, but they only touch the surface of his life, the depths are calm and serene.

I agree that all our suffering comes from the world of matter, but we cannot avoid living in the world of matter, so we have to deal with it. We do not live in the spiritual Kingdom yet so the best we can do is try to be detached from the material world, although that is not always possible, and sometimes it causes problems if we are so detached that so we do not even do things we need to do.

Today, humanity is bowed down with trouble, sorrow and grief, no one escapes; the world is wet with tears; but, thank God, the remedy is at our doors. Let us turn our hearts away from the world of matter and live in the spiritual world! It alone can give us freedom! If we are hemmed in by difficulties we have only to call upon God, and by His great Mercy we shall be helped.

If sorrow and adversity visit us, let us turn our faces to the Kingdom and heavenly consolation will be outpoured.

I am sorry but that is just annoying, and it is like a slap in the face. Sure we can turn our hearts away from the world of matter but we still have to live in the world of matter and negotiate it day after day, because we cannot live in the spiritual world. And we can call upon God, but God does not always help.

If we are sick and in distress let us implore God’s healing, and He will answer our prayer.

God will answer our prayers sometimes but not always. Baha’u’llah wrote that so that is what I believe.

When our thoughts are filled with the bitterness of this world, let us turn our eyes to the sweetness of God’s compassion and He will send us heavenly calm! If we are imprisoned in the material world, our spirit can soar into the Heavens and we shall be free indeed.

Sorry, I do not have that much faith, and maybe that is because nothing was sent to my P.O. box!

When our days are drawing to a close let us think of the eternal worlds, and we shall be full of joy!

That cannot happen soon enough, I mean my days in this world drawing to a close.

You see all round you proofs of the inadequacy of material things—how joy, comfort, peace and consolation are not to be found in the transitory things of the world. Is it not then foolishness to refuse to seek these treasures where they may be found? The doors of the spiritual Kingdom are open to all, and without is absolute darkness.

I can certainly agree with that, and I do not look to material things and the transitory things of the world for joy, comfort, peace and consolation. I look to spiritual things.

Thus, spirituality is the greatest of God’s gifts, and ‘Life Everlasting’ means ‘Turning to God’. May you, one and all, increase daily in spirituality, may you be strengthened in all goodness, may you be helped more and more by the Divine consolation, be made free by the Holy Spirit of God, and may the power of the Heavenly Kingdom live and work among you.

I can agree that spirituality is the greatest of God's gifts, and that in principle 'Life Everlasting' means 'Turning to God', but I am not much for it in practice because I could not turn to God in all sincerity since I do not trust or love God.