Why do you dislike Islam?

[FearGod]

History is stupid? Suit yourself.

I'm saying that most 'Arabs' are not ethnic Arabs (i.e. from the Hijaz) and that conquering people doesn't change their ethnicity.

The major centres of learning were in Persia, North Africa, Iraq, etc not Mecca or Medina. The majority of people in these places were not ethnic Arabs, they were the indigenous people of the region.

Arabness was a negotiated construct that mostly emerged after the conquests with many genealogies and tribal affiliations emerging retroactively. By the 4th C AH you couldn't really tell if someone's purported lineage was genuine or had been fabricated by an ancestor several centuries previous.

To answer your strawman, most were not Arabs =/= none of them were Arabs.

When you have an empire that is overwhelmingly non-Arab ethnically, it's hardly surprising that most famous scholars are also non-Arab in ethnicity.

I don't care about ethnicity and it doesn't make any sense to me, humans are humans
and the point is that the golden age of Islam started by Islam, being them Arabs or non Arabs,
I don't care, racism to me is ignorance, keep it for you.

 

[FearGod]

Seems she had a lot of status though.



The point was that all these stories about how barbarous and uncivilised and backward they were is greatly exaggerated. They were well integrated with the rest of the Middle East, trading, serving in the armies of Persia/Rome, following the same religions.

To say that 'unless they had famous scientists then the stories must be true' is another one of your frequent strawmen.

Of course they became more advanced when they had a rich and cosmopolitan empire.

I think you're sleepy, go and take some rest.

 

[FearGod]

This is one of those prophecies you often mention, I assume?

No I didn't.

 

[FearGod]

I guess that ancestry tree is wrong, I am not 74 percent arab. lol, this guy on the internets told me im not arab or most arabs arent arabs.

They came from agrabah the same kingdowm from Aladdin on flying carpets.

Humans generally are chimps, very relative I mean

 

[Augustus]

They worship a peacock.

No they don't. Melek Taus - Wikipedia

I guess that ancestry tree is wrong, I am not 74 percent arab. lol, this guy on the internets told me im not arab or most arabs arent arabs.

They came from agrabah the same kingdowm from Aladdin on flying carpets.

The guy on the internets said that the designation Arab generally refers to a linguistic/cultural identity, not an ethnicity.

The guy on internets is very much correct in this as the genetic evidence clearly demonstrates.

Is there any of this you disagree with? Why?

 

[MohammadPali]

No they don't. Melek Taus - Wikipedia



The guy on the internets said that the designation Arab generally refers to a linguistic/cultural identity, not an ethnicity.

The guy on internets is very much correct in this as the genetic evidence clearly demonstrates.

Is there any of this you disagree with? Why?

Melek Taus (Ezdiki: Tawûsê Melek), also spelled Malik Tous, translated in English as Peacock Angel,


Consequently, peacock imagery adorns Yazidi shrines, gateways, graves, and houses of worship.


So the next question, are arabs white ? or middle eastern or semetic in your fantastic opinion please. Give us insight.

 

[MohammadPali]

Humans generally are chimps, very relative I mean

HAHA, you must be a planet of the apes fan. I love that movie. I laughed when Cesar grabbed the man clubbing him and said nOOOOOOOO.

 

[Augustus]

I don't care about ethnicity and it doesn't make any sense to me, humans are humans
and the point is that the golden age of Islam started by Islam, being them Arabs or non Arabs,
I don't care, racism to me is ignorance, keep it for you.

Never one to miss a chance to miss the point (or misrepresent it)

I think you're sleepy, go and take some rest.

Not at all. It's always a pleasure to see how you deftly avoid evidence having any effect on your preconceived opinions

 

[FearGod]

Never one to miss a chance to miss the point (or misrepresent it)



Not at all. It's always a pleasure to see how you deftly avoid evidence having any effect on your preconceived opinions

I have declared that it was a stupid discussion and I had withdrawn from it, who did it, Arabs or non Arabs isn't important to the discussion, The main point is that it started by Islam, I asked you to
tell me what the Persians and the Romans did about science and to tell me the name of their glorious scientists, but your answers indicate that you were sleepy and hence I asked you to take some rest, but if you don't feel sleepy then i'll start to wonder.

 

[MohammadPali]

Isn't algebra of arab origin ?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

It's of discernment to realize the truth from observing the prophecies being fulfilled

"Think of how many religions attempt to validate themselves with prophecy. Think of how many people rely on these prophecies, however vague, however unfulfilled, to support or prop up their beliefs. Yet has there ever been a religion with the prophetic accuracy and reliability of science?" - Carl Sagan

 

[Augustus]

So the next question, are arabs white ? or middle eastern or semetic in your fantastic opinion please. Give us insight.

Not sure what 'white' means. If you mean like Northern Europeans, then no. If Southern Europeans are 'white' then many Levantine 'Arabs' are every bit as 'white' as many Greeks.

Many thousands of years before modern concepts like 'white' and 'Middle Eastern' were invented you had people of common ancestry migrating and settling in new areas.

There was civilisation that was based around the Mediterranean: modern day North Africa, Israel/Palestine, the Levant, Turkey, Greece, Italy.

The people who were in the Eastern Med are now called Europeans (Greeks, Cypriots, etc), Turks and Arabs yet they are still mostly the descendants of the same people who settled the region thousands of years ago.

Many Levantine Arabs are more closely related to Greeks and Turks than they are to Saudis. Many Greeks are more closely related to Levantine Arabs, Mediterranean Jews and Turks than they are to fellow Europeans like Germans or French. Modern political geography does not always reflect common heritage.

Arabs might be 'white', 'black', 'Middle Eastern', 'Semitic', 'Levantine', 'East African', 'North African', etc. For most Arabs, it is a linguistic/cultural identity.

Seeing as you don't seem to agree with me, what do you think makes someone an Arab?

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Spain is by itself an evidence that Islam wasn't bad but it was a boon, Andalusia was the
best city in Europe and students were traveling to Spain to gain knowledge, it was really
a miracle that a few bedouins had did it.

Why do things that happened over a thousand years ago count in your eyes but things that are happening today get dismissed? Are you saying that Islam was only good for the world then?

God wanted humans to live in peace and in justice, prior to Islam it was hell, women has
no value at all and even they were killed once born,

I seriously doubt it was as bad as you claim - it's in the interest of Muslims to paint pre-Islamic Arabia as badly as possible to make the coming of Islam seem that much more of a miracle.

If this claim were true, why did Muhammad and his successors spread Islam mostly by war? Why did Islam emerge from Arabia in the form of armies? If Allah wants humans to live in peace, why do Muslims prescribe punitive justice rather than restorative? And why did Allah create a religion that is so inimical to the presence of differing belief systems?

2 tyrants controlling the region, one
from the east (the Persians) and the other one from the west (the romans).

The wars between the Byzantines and the Sassanids decimated Mesopotamia and the Levant. Was there anything apart from the wars that made these tyrants bad?

Prior to Islam if a person from one tribe killed one from the other tribe, then a war starts
between the 2 tribes, Islam educated them that only the killer should be punished
and no war should be started as a consequence of a crime done by one person, and even
the killer can be exempted in some occasions if the other family forgave him for some reasons.

So Islam reformed Arab society to a certain extent and tried to reduce the excesses. That's great! But considering its standards of 'improvement' are set 1400 years in the past, why would this be a good thing now, and for the rest of us?

I don't care about ethnicity and it doesn't make any sense to me, humans are humans
and the point is that the golden age of Islam started by Islam, being them Arabs or non Arabs,
I don't care, racism to me is ignorance, keep it for you.

You tried this 'race card' line the last time this argument came up. So I'll tell you what I told you then:

It's not hate or racism to point out that Arab contributions to science were pretty limited (or even non-existent) until they conquered more scientifically advanced societies like the Persians and the Byzantines and as a result gained access to their accumulated knowledge (in fact would this not reinforce your claim about how pre-Islamic Arabia was in the 'Age of Ignorance'?). It's simple fact. Indeed; this was a trend an Arab scholar, Ibn Khaldun noticed in the fourteenth century; that Persians, not Arabs, tended to be well-learned and scholarly. Obviously, Ibn Khaldun himself is the proof that this was not universally true.

Isn't algebra of arab origin ?

No. The West probably inherited knowledge of algebra through contact with Islamic societies during the Golden Age but that doesn't mean Arabs specifically or Muslims generally invented algebra. This was actually mentioned either earlier in this thread or in a similar one.

 

[Augustus]

I have declared that it was a stupid discussion and I had withdrawn from it, who did it, Arabs or non Arabs isn't important to the discussion, The main point is that it started by Islam,

You tend to declare things stupid when you don't understand them and consistently misrepresent them.

Why do you believe it was 'started by Islam'?

I asked you to
tell me what the Persians and the Romans did about science and to tell me the name of their glorious scientists, but your answers indicate that you were sleepy and hence I asked you to take some rest, but if you don't feel sleepy then i'll start to wonder.

Roman Science
Ancient Greek Science
Sasanian Empire - Wikipedia

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

1) pushing homosexuals off towers was ISIS not Islam nor is it mandated in Islam.
2) Burning people alive is ISIS or extremists not Islam nor is it a mandated punishment in Islam
3) honor killings is not a part of Islam in actuality honor killings go as far back as the Roman times. Indians (Hindus) perform the same thing.
4) Throwing acid in peoples faces is not Islam nor is it mandated.
5) Cutting the hands off thieves is Shari'ah Law but one can be forgiven if one states that in the court. Depends on the court of law.
6) Stoning of adulterers depends on the court of law but ask a Muslim knowledgeable of shari'ah Law.
7) Misogyny really? What is misogynistic about Islam that is no different than Judaism and Christianity?
8) Terrorism is not a part of Islam in fact:

"Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land – it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one – it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors."

Your reasons are media based, not based on logic nor intellect.

My reasons are both media based and based on "logic and intellect." I know perfectly well what religions do to many people.

Also, Islam is not defined by what is mandated in Islam, but by what manifests from it - how it is actually rendered in practice.

The Christians do the same thing: They try to distance themselves from the worst of Christianity by pointing to their book and the nice guy in the last part. What they also don't understand is that many unbelievers judge both religions by their fruits, not their words.

You ignored the question at the end of my list: "What does Islam the world offer to offset that?" It was actually a rhetorical question that needed no answer.

********

Islamic cultures peaked in a golden age characterized by tolerance, free inquiry, and the removal of supernaturalism from the pursuit of natural philosophy, and died when they returned to religious fundamentalism:

“Ibn al-Hazen (965-1040 AD) was the first person ever to set down the rules of science. He created an error-correcting mechanism, a systematic and relentless way to sift out misconceptions in our thinking. ‘Finding truth is difficult and the road to it is rough. As seekers after truth, you will be wise to withhold judgment and not simply put your trust in the writings of the ancients. You must question and critically examine those writings from every side. You must submit only to argument and experiment and not to the sayings of any person. For every human being is vulnerable to all kinds of imperfection. As seekers after truth, we must also suspect and question our own ideas as we perform our investigations, to avoid falling into prejudice or careless thinking. Take this course, and truth will be revealed to you.”

“And then, something happened. The 12th century brought the influence of the scholar al-Ghazali (1058-1111 AD), and out of his work you get the philosophy that mathematics is the work of the devil. Nothing good can come of that philosophy. With that, combined with other sort-of philosophical codifications of what Islam was and would become, the entire intellectual foundation of that enterprise collapsed and it has not recovered since”​

It's the same old story that is played out in the Soviet Union last century and is playing out in America today. More faith based dogma is bad, less is good: In Which Climate “Skeptics” Drop the Lysenko Bomb. No, I’m Not Kidding….

 

[FearGod]

Why do things that happened over a thousand years ago count in your eyes but things that are happening today get dismissed? Are you saying that Islam was only good for the world then?

I answered this before, it should happen, the prophet said you'll return back to the era of ignorance, the prophet even cried once when he saw that the Islamic kingdom will vanish and will be very weak after their great advancements, but he said that after it Islam will reveal again and the disbelievers will lose their wars against Islam.

I seriously doubt it was as bad as you claim - it's in the interest of Muslims to paint pre-Islamic Arabia as badly as possible to make the coming of Islam seem that much more of a miracle.

Tell me some scientists in the 7th century and you win, if you don't then don't make a rubbish answer.

If this claim were true, why did Muhammad and his successors spread Islam mostly by war? Why did Islam emerge from Arabia in the form of armies? If Allah wants humans to live in peace, why do Muslims prescribe punitive justice rather than restorative? And why did Allah create a religion that is so inimical to the presence of differing belief systems?

They were defending themselves against the superpowers at that era, and Muslims won and took over.the ruling.

The wars between the Byzantines and the Sassanids decimated Mesopotamia and the Levant. Was there anything apart from the wars that made these tyrants bad?

They occupied the other lands by force and subjugating the local people and still you aren't sure that they were tyrants.

So Islam reformed Arab society to a certain extent and tried to reduce the excesses. That's great! But considering its standards of 'improvement' are set 1400 years in the past, why would this be a good thing now, and for the rest of us?

Do you think our societies today are perfect? yes we have cars, tvs, mobiles ..etc, but that
isn't happiness, I don't know why God said that I'll make the deliverers to live in their paradise and to let them get lost with it, bu tit's God's plan and it should be as it's.

You tried this 'race card' line the last time this argument came up. So I'll tell you what I told you then:

It's not hate or racism to point out that Arab contributions to science were pretty limited (or even non-existent) until they conquered more scientifically advanced societies like the Persians and the Byzantines and as a result gained access to their accumulated knowledge (in fact would this not reinforce your claim about how pre-Islamic Arabia was in the 'Age of Ignorance'?). It's simple fact. Indeed; this was a trend an Arab scholar, Ibn Khaldun noticed in the fourteenth century; that Persians, not Arabs, tended to be well-learned and scholarly. Obviously, Ibn Khaldun himself is the proof that this was not universally true.

The same question that I need you to answer, give me the name of the scientists and their works in the 7th century?

No. The West probably inherited knowledge of algebra through contact with Islamic societies during the Golden Age but that doesn't mean Arabs specifically or Muslims generally invented algebra. This was actually mentioned either earlier in this thread or in a similar one.

And why Europe needed Arabs to teach them Algebra?

 

[MohammadPali]

Islam is remembering 1 god, and driving paganism away. Because pagans, Zoroastrians was oppression, and belived in all kinds of things, even the phallic. It brought morals to a society that was plagued with superstition, and fought against them, because worship of idols is against god. Paganism in a general sense is evil and disgusting, because it leads to more innovation of the non moral things, and justifies evil and barbarism.

Worship on 1 god, is a mercy for all mankind.

 

[FearGod]

You tend to declare things stupid when you don't understand them and consistently misrepresent them.

Why do you believe it was 'started by Islam'?




Roman Science
Ancient Greek Science
Sasanian Empire - Wikipedia

I asked you to tell me the name of the scientists during the 7th century and their works.

 

[sayak83]

HAHA, you must be a planet of the apes fan. I love that movie. I laughed when Cesar grabbed the man clubbing him and said nOOOOOOOO.

We are descended from ancestral apes, certainly.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I don't know but typically most outspoken critics of Islam tend to be Christian.

Although I wouldn't call myself an outspoken critic of Islam - I'm only criticizing it here and now because you asked what others dislike about Islam - like the Christians to which you refer, this secular humanist finds little of value in Islam, and quite a few things I don't like.

In my experience, typically people who are critics of Islam are pretty much ignorant of it and don't do research.

Most non-Muslims are only interested in the parts of the religion that are apparent in the news and in the Muslims we encounter, which requires no research.