Why do some creationists think evolution = atheism?

[sayak83]

Serious question for you: You are Hindu, so if you think cows are sacred and you believe in evolution! At what point did the cow become sacred?

I do not believe cows are sacred. The female lactating cow and goat, as a giver of milk necessary for young children, were given special protection in Hindu law-texts. No such special protection is accorded bullocks, buffalo etc. In general Hindu-s consider animals (specifically mammals and many birds) sufficiently sentient and capable of suffering to consider killing animals for meat as a form of violence to them. The cow, a very familiar and docile animal kept by all households in early times for milk and for ploughing fields is used as an type-example to make this case and increase empathy. But the case being made is for vegetarianism and to not kill animals who suffer and feel pain, not for making cows sacred.

I may get some details wrong, but doesn't evolution teach "molecules to man"? And wouldn't that apply also to cows? I don't know what their ancestral lineage is, what creatures they descended from but when did they become sacred? Was it the bacteria" Was it some creature somewhere in the middle of this evolution process? Or was a "soul" born into them on that very day that the first cow emerged! I ask the same question of Bible believers who claim "souls" entered into the first person! The supposed first person had a "soul" but their mother didn't!

You are wide off the mark. See above.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I do not think it is fair in all cases to point out age difference, but since you are trying to act like your "science knowledge" trumps my "science experience" I will point out that I am 20 years ahead in life experience, 50 to your 30! You have a lot to learn ahead of you, I would urge that you keep an open mind

I never brought age up, and age does not inherently bring knowledge, wisdom, or experience.

 

[Jenny Collins]

Why did you not?


No. I am not a Christian. I am a Hindu.
Many Christians believe that the Bible is consistent with evolution, and I find their arguments far more cogent than what the detractors say.


I you actually read what other people write, you would not have wasted so much of your time. I am not a Christian but a Hindu. You should look at my label as well on the side.


No I do not.


You are ignorant about the science of evolution and your dogma prevents you from making an honest attempt at learning it. No human being (unless suffering from unfortunate afflictions of the mind) is dumb. Desire, effort and opportunity is all that is needed for most people to learn new things, including science.


You shortchange yourself. You are now calling yourself dumb, insulting your own capabilities. You do have the ability to reach the level of understanding where you can discern what scientific ideas are legitimate and which are not. I have never let anybody else do my thinking for me, either in matters of religion/spirit or in the matter of the world/science. You are free to learn and investigate both sides and their arguments in parallel. All that you need to do is take a notebook, a pencil or a pen and start.



You should trust that group that is constantly self-critical and constantly trying to check the reliability of their own knowledge and conclusions and constantly trying to investigate new things than a group that rigidly proclaims that they have the truth without justification and blind to whatever contrary evidence that ,may come. Its the latter group of dogmatic religious an ideological groups that have fallen into error and delusion, not science.


Knowledge is about beliefs that can be justified with reasons and evidence. But future evidence can always have some small chance of overturning current evidence. Thus all honest people and organizations accept that knowledge has uncertainty and that we have greater or lesser confidence in what we believe but never full certainty. Those groups that claim such certainties are liars and deceivers who seek to lead people like you astray by false claims of absolutes.

This is how I have come to my conclusions about evolution:


Your absolute trust on the Bible and the interpretation you cling to about it is misplaced. As long as you are not willing to let go of that trust and question the Bible and its interpretations with as much a critical eye as you do for science, you will never be able to walk a path that leads to truth. If Bible is true, it will come through such a critical examination for you, if not, it will fall by the wayside. That is the risk. Are you willing to take it?


I do not care about what other have said to you. Please focus on our conversation.

What Christian group do you belong to?

Just scanned what you said! No I am not cutting myself down and shortchanging myself! There is that "stinking thinking" I complained about in Immortal Soul, be careful! Anyone who followed anything that I said here knows that I said that I have certain limitations, but excel in some ways! As far as science is concerned I know some! I had interruptions in high school because of some things going on in my life at the time, but I picked up some things as an adult!

So if I know something, I will share it, if I don't, I can't get in a discussion! Nobody knows everything there is to know and according to evolutionist Philip Plait, the scientists who think they know on his own team, bumble around pushing false science

So don't misrepresent me! I am 50 years old and have duties, so I cannot read science books all of the time, so I am not shortchanging myself! I read a lot of different stuff, don't concentrate in this one area like a geek! I have a job, when I am not recovering from surgery, so cannot immerse myself in reading science and becoming as educated as a scientist, unless you want to pay for my education and support me while I go to school! Do you?

 

[Jenny Collins]

You say you have certain gifts with reading and absorbing! So do I! And I channel that into reading the Bible!

You say only God can judge who is or isn't a Christian! Yes, but he gives us some judgment in that regard

I think I can say that Hitler wasn't a Christian, although he said he was and is seen in pictures shaking hands with archbishops!

I think I can say that Jimmy Swaggart wasn't a Christian when he kept going from scandal to scandal and shedding tears of repentance, while asking for money from his sheep!

Behavior can to a certain extent show if someone is a Christian, although people make mistakes, repent and change!

The Bible definitely does give us ability to examine doctrine and compare it to the Bible! But ultimately only God can determine who is or isn't a Christian! All that can be shown at this time, is the proper path to take

As far as you studying with evangelicals, huge mistake! Swaggart, Bakker, and the like are Evangelical leaders!

Evangelical leaders are claiming the earth is only 6 to 10 thousand years old

Evangelicals think that you are going to a place of eternal torture for picking the wrong religion! They also think I am going to eternal torture, and that atheists will go there! They think Catholics and any religious person who is not "born again" will go there! And there may be the stray one who deviates from that, but most that I have talked to believe this

So if you are getting your education about the Bible from them, maybe you need to explore it from other perspectives

While it is good to know that you don't believe cows are sacred, why do some many other Hindus?

How can you mesh reincarnation with evolution? Does a cow descend from some other animal through evolution, or is it reborn from some lesser creature? Has a human descended from an apelike creature, or has the human been reborn a human and in a prior life was something else?

Two different processes going on!

 

[sayak83]

So you claim you are more impressed with what you "other" Christians tell you about the Bible and Evolution being compatible! Did those "other" Christians tell you that Adam is referred to as a real person in other parts of the Bible? "Through one man sin entered the world" and other places! Did the "other" Christians tell you that Adam is listed first in all the many lineages leading to Christ, peppered throughout the Old Testament? Doesn't make sense that a fictional person from a parable would be mentioned first and all the rest were literal people!

The basic idea is that God reflected Himself in the spirit of these men and women who expressed His actions and His Nature in terms of the worldview and language their culture possessed at that time. The literal facts should not be considered inerrant, but the nature of God revealed through such an expression is authentic. I consider this to be the correct overall framework in which to read the Bible, after which an actual discussion can be had about the nature of God, Man and the World the Bible reveals.

Did the "others" tell you that the account of Noah and the ark is referred to in other places of the Bible, like 2 Peter 3:1-5?

Did the "others" tell you that the Bible says "You can't get thorns from thistles" and more, and also says animals were made "according to their kinds" Did the others tell you that the Bible says: "with God all things are possible" so when people say God couldn't fit all those animals on the ark, and so on, maybe he used some means that we aren't aware of?

See above.

I am a JW! You are a Hindu! What do you know about my religion, other than what other people have told you about us? Did you hear it from the horse's mouth? I read about Hindus, but can't call to mind a lot! What comes to mind is a mental picture of a statue with eight or so arms and an elephant God! My religion may not impress you, but that doesn't impress me!

About JW I know little. Its a small subsect of Christianity that rejects the Trinitarian doctrine. Otherwise, your group is too small to be in my radar. I have however read the Bible and many of its popular exegesis and discussed them with protestants and catholics. As usual however, I make up my own mind.

What else comes to mind are castes with poor untouchables who are treated like pariahs! Of course that is more in the past, but some prejudices still remain! And cows wandering the streets doing as they please, they are sacred after all!

Cows as well as monkeys, cats, dogs, chicken etc. We believe in "free-range" animals .
Yep, caste-based discrimination is bad, but its changing fast...partly because in Hinduism social laws are considered alterable with time according to the needs of the human society rather than being fixed decrees of God. Once industrialization has happened and transmission of knowledge is fast, there is no necessity to have a hierarchically arranged system where crafts are learned through the generations as was common in all pre-industrial world (European feudal and serf system, same for China, slavery in US and ancient Rome etc.)

So what makes me so impressed that your mind tells you evolution is true?

The question is garbled. Are you asking what scientific evidence has convinced me that the theory of evolution?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

It appears as if God must fit into a box of your own creation....I assure you he will demonstrate his power again in the future.
He fits in no box made by man.

We're still waiting, and have been for eons. Increasingly, more of us are rejecting the claim and treating it as yet as another broken promise from Christianity.

As a Christian, I was once promised that I could move mountains with faith. Didn't work.

Tried to get a refund, but the pastor said I was out of luck. The money was already in heaven. I chalk it up to tuition in the college of life.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I

thought you were atheist because I am dealing with several atheists at once and can't keep track, plus you had that mad scientist-like avatar! It seemed kind of what an atheist might have!

You thought that looked like an atheist? That avatar looked like Jehovah raging about sin and disobedience, and about to drop somebody still conscious into a lake of fire.

 

[sayak83]

You say you have certain gifts with reading and absorbing! So do I! And I channel that into reading the Bible!

One book out of many. How do you justify such trust in knowledge from one book?

You say only God can judge who is or isn't a Christian! Yes, but he gives us some judgment in that regard

I think I can say that Hitler wasn't a Christian, although he said he was and is seen in pictures shaking hands with archbishops!

Perhaps Hitler was possessed by Satan and maybe he was silently praying to Jesus constantly for deliverance throughout his life. You do not know, either about yourself or about Hitler. You can only ascribe confidence % based on the information you possess.

As far as you studying with evangelicals, huge mistake! Swaggart, Bakker, and the like are Evangelical leaders!

Evangelical leaders are claiming the earth is only 6 to 10 thousand years old

Evangelicals think that you are going to a place of eternal torture for picking the wrong religion! They also think I am going to eternal torture, and that atheists will go there! They think Catholics and any religious person who is not "born again" will go there! And there may be the stray one who deviates from that, but most that I have talked to believe this

So if you are getting your education about the Bible from them, maybe you need to explore it from other perspectives

The evangelical group is large and I also interacted with more liberal evangelical groups, as well as Protestants, Catholics and non-denominationalists. It was a specifically international group were Christians from all groups participated. There were Ethiopian Christians, Anglicans, German Lutherans, Korean Christians, Chinese Christians, Spanish speaking Catholic Christians, a few pentecostals as well as evangelicals and mainstream protestants of US.
But regardless, as I said, I make up my own mind given the evidence and argument.

While it is good to know that you don't believe cows are sacred, why do some many other Hindus?

They do not consider cows anymore sacred than in the sense I said. Cows are not eaten for the reasons I outlined, but they are not sacred. There aren't any cow temples and cows aren't worshiped.

How can you mesh reincarnation with evolution? Does a cow descend from some other animal through evolution, or is it reborn from some lesser creature? Has a human descended from an apelike creature, or has the human been reborn a human and in a prior life was something else?

Two different processes going on!

Two different but inter-related processes are going on. The material world evolves into beings with various capacities and souls with various psychological capabilities connect with these organic systems and express themselves through them. (This is a very rough idea.)

Thus, unlike Christianity, Hinduism will say that conscious Artificial Intelligence is possible, as any material configuration made by whatever means and capable of expressing consciousness will latch itself on to a soul with associated psychological abilities.

Finally reincarnation is the reincarnation of the soul with its psychological traits from one material configuration to another (though not necessarily on earth, there are other planets, other entire universes as well).
Note:- These things are appx. descriptions of common Hindu ideas. Not everyone subscribes to everything in it.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Creationism is a fundamentalist movement, usually associated with YEC! There is an umbrella term which breaks up creation believers into different categories! I don't care what they say, they can't define me!

He just did. He called you a creationist. Do you deny it?

My religion rejects that word and its connotations! Just like when the word cult came out, groups like the Moonies, or the followers of Jim Jones, then someone got this idea to use it to discredit harmless religions, which weren't their cup of tea! So a new word was born, even though sociologists tell them they are wrong! So I reject the word creationist, even if it isn't derogatory like cult

That's nice, but not relevant. People define you according to your words and actions, not according to what you say you are. It doesn't matter what emotional response the word "creationist" evokes in you, or why you prefer to distance yourself from it. You've taken a creationist position.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

You likely believe in eternal torture!

Nah. I'm the atheist, remember? I believe that death is like eternal sleep.

Eternal torture is Christianity.

The Bible is not consistent with evolution! Even many atheists will tell you this!

Agree. Pick one, not both. Christianity and Darwinian evolution cannot both be correct.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

This is the first time I actually checked out anything you said here, and I didn't actually read it! I used the ignore function for you, but see that you have followed me from one post to another! I take all this interest from you and the others as a compliment! As one intellectually honest person on that other post said to me: "the fact that they want to keep debating with you shows that what you are saying is compelling" Not just one person, but many, keep responding to me! What I am saying has the "ring of truth" In a court of law someone may give testimony which sounds true on the surface, and upon further probing may turn out to be true or turn out to be false! So at the very least, what I say sounds compelling! If I was just spouting clear nonsense, people would be ignoring me, which is what I have done with you Immortal Soul! And do you know why? I will isolate a few of the things you did on that other post! You told me when I sited medical data, to back it up! I told you that earlier in the thread I already had, and that if you wanted to look at that you could, or you could easily type a few words into the computer and find what I was saying! I also added that if anyone else wanted to find the data, that I would help them, because they might actually listen to me!

But you still demanded I provide sources, so I did! I provided a source that backed up the speculation of doctors that 40 to 60 percent of transfusions are unneeded and also told about many dangers of blood! You said back: "All that article did was confirm that some transfusions are given when unneeded" and that was untrue! But even if it had only proven the sited figure, you had previously asked me: "Show me the sources that say that 40 to 60 percent are unneeded" So I did!

And I ALSO provided other sources which confirmed the dangers of blood! So you pick on one source for not saying they are dangerous (it did) when I had posted additional sources which backed up my other contentions!

Then you told me that it was against rules to copy and paste! I didn't find anything in the rules that said that but even if it is, you ASKED me for sources! Then when I provide them you tell me I am breaking rules! Do you want the sources or don't you?

After that you told me: "If you google 'evidence of Big Foot' a lot would come up too" That may be so, if you go to outlandish sites! But when I showed sources to you they were from sites like John Hopkins medical institute, hardly comparable to junk web sites! And you zeroed in on the one link to an article in a magazine from my religion, as if that discredited it somehow! Even that article listed external sources!

It was constantly this way with you! "Show me the source" I show you "You aren't supposed to copy and paste" "You could make a case for Big Foot too if you wanted to" If you trust junk sites, yes!

So I am weeding out people like you, even if they stalk me to other threads, because I don't want to waste my time dealing with stinking thinking!

Nowhere in that self-righteous rant is anything even remotely relevant to my post. Didn't you earlier criticise someone for dredging up irrelevant things from another thread? And yet here you are doing that exact same thing.

All I really wanted to do in this case was understand why you reject the label "creationist", and here you are writing an extensive attack on me that isn't even remotely relevant to anything in this thread, and your dishonest representation of my position only digs your grave deeper.

Clearly you are the one with the issue here, not me. I was more than happy to leave things in that thread as they were, but obviously the things I wrote must have severely damaged your ego for you to dwell on them like this. If it will be any help to you, I'll refrain from engaging you - politely or otherwise - on this forum. On the other hand, if you want to be a mature adult, please plaster your bruised ego and deal with my posts reasonably.

 

[sayak83]

Just scanned what you said! No I am not cutting myself down and shortchanging myself! There is that "stinking thinking" I complained about in Immortal Soul, be careful! Anyone who followed anything that I said here knows that I said that I have certain limitations, but excel in some ways! As far as science is concerned I know some! I had interruptions in high school because of some things going on in my life at the time, but I picked up some things as an adult!

So if I know something, I will share it, if I don't, I can't get in a discussion! Nobody knows everything there is to know and according to evolutionist Philip Plait, the scientists who think they know on his own team, bumble around pushing false science

So don't misrepresent me! I am 50 years old and have duties, so I cannot read science books all of the time, so I am not shortchanging myself! I read a lot of different stuff, don't concentrate in this one area like a geek! I have a job, when I am not recovering from surgery, so cannot immerse myself in reading science and becoming as educated as a scientist, unless you want to pay for my education and support me while I go to school! Do you?

Cool wanted to know that. After all you could be a 18 year old and choosing not to go to university because of faith commitments. Its kind of my duty as a science educator to exhort people to learn about the science if they are able. I completely understand (coming from India) that many do not get the opportunities and other duties and life intervenes. People should not have to pay such sky high prices for learning things and I will try to do what little I can to make education and learning cheaper and more available to all people.

However, the conviction of one's conclusions should be in keeping with how much one knows. So it appears to me that your conclusions regarding this should be far more tentative and provisional than what is the case for you.

 

[Deeje]

We're still waiting, and have been for eons. Increasingly, more of us are rejecting the claim and treating it as yet as another broken promise from Christianity.

As a Christian, I was once promised that I could move mountains with faith. Didn't work.

Tried to get a refund, but the pastor said I was out of luck. The money was already in heaven. I chalk it up to tuition in the college of life.

Ah, now I see where you are coming from.....are you a disappointed 'ex-Christian' who thought God was too slow in jumping through the human hoops of expectation.....?

"Moving mountains" is of course metaphorical and can perhaps be described as removing 'mountain-like' obstacles that get in our way. I have had this happen in my life countless times. It is a product of faith, not expectation. It doesn't always happen the way you think it should, but the end result can be better than we imagine.

Can I ask you what sort of timeframe you think God might operate in?

The Bible says that 'a thousand years is like one day' to the Creator, (2 Peter 3:8) so our entire lifetime is just barely a blip on his radar. How many generations do you think have come and gone waiting for this promise to be fulfilled? How many people have lived and died in just "one day" of universal time? Are they lost forever? No, they are sleeping peacefully in their graves awaiting a resurrection...just like Lazarus. (John 11:11-14; 17-44)

When the devil rebelled in Eden and took humankind with him, (virtually hijacking them and holding them to ransom) God stepped in immediately with a solution. The first prophesy recorded in Genesis 3:15, might have been a little bit puzzling to those who read it when Moses recorded it.
Who was the woman? The serpent? The seed of each of them? What was the heel wound and what did the blow to the head of the serpent mean?

It took about 2,000 earth years for the seed of the woman to arrive. (Just two days in God's counting of time) and when Jesus came, he filled in a lot of the blanks for God's servants who wondered about how this prophesy would be fulfilled. Bible truth has always been revealed progressively. (Romans 16:25-27)

The 'heel wound' was delivered when Christ was executed, (paying the ransom for obedient humanity) but he was resurrected 3 earth days later, experiencing a full recovery. And here we are "2 universal days' later, (another 2,000 earth years) waiting for his return, and the institution of his kingdom rule to be enjoyed "on earth as it is in heaven".

The final blow....(the head wound to be delivered to the serpent, satan the devil) will happen when the kingdom has restored all of the redeemed human race back to their original perfection, and satan is released from his prison to test reconciled mankind one last time....

Revelation 20:1-3:
"And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 He seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for 1,000 years. 3 And he hurled him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not mislead the nations anymore until the 1,000 years were ended. After this he must be released for a little while."

Revelation 20:7-8:
"Now as soon as the 1,000 years have ended, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Maʹgog, to gather them together for the war."

Revelation 20:9-10
"And they advanced over the whole earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and consumed them. 10 And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet already were"

So the fatal head wound spoken about in Genesis is delivered in Revelation. All that we lost in Eden is restored.

When people jump ship because they do not recognize God's timeframe, they deprive themselves of a great reward for their patience.

Following on from 2 Peter 3:8, verses 9 & 10 say...
"Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance. 10 Yet Jehovah’s day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a hissing noise, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be discovered."

Are we ready for the "thief" to overtake us? The Bible says it will be swift when it finally comes, but not expected by the majority who think there is no God because of how long it is all taking.

Please reconsider. Atheism leads nowhere.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Ah, now I see where you are coming from.....are you a disappointed 'ex-Christian' who thought God was too slow in jumping through the human hoops of expectation.....?

No. I expect nothing from any god and am very satisfied with my godless life.

"Moving mountains" is of course metaphorical and can perhaps be described as removing 'mountain-like' obstacles that get in our way. I have had this happen in my life countless times. It is a product of faith, not expectation. It doesn't always happen the way you think it should, but the end result can be better than we imagine.

The whole religion is equally metaphorical. There's no substance to metaphor.

Can I ask you what sort of timeframe you think God might operate in?

I thought that a decade was sufficient.

The Bible says that 'a thousand years is like one day' to the Creator

A thousand years is like a thousand years to me.

Please reconsider. Atheism leads nowhere.

Atheism is not a path. Why would it lead to anywhere?

 

[Deeje]

Atheism is not a path. Why would it lead to anywhere?

You may not call it a path, but Jesus did. He said that there are just two roads and that all of us are on either one or the other. (Matthew 7:13-14) One path or road leads to everlasting life, the other to everlasting death....we choose our own path. So If you have chosen your path in confidence, then who am I to try and turn you back? Happy trails.....

 

[Thumper]

Didn't read what you just wrote above, but aren't you the one who belittled my claims of being good at art, without ever seeing my art? And try to compare that to my pointing out that we don't know that people who claim are scientists on here, really are? You scoffed at my art claims, I didn't scoff at the scientist claims, I said I was cautious of believing it, which is critical thinking! And even if I was lying about my art claims, we are not talking about art, we are talking about SCIENCE! If I am lying about art in a discussion about science, it doesn't matter! If they are lying about being scientists in a discussion about science, it does matter! That is why I am not reading anything more from you, because of your weird logic and reasoning!

I am weeding out the ones like that, and talking to people like Jose, and a couple others who show some reasonableness!

Polymath is sort of reasonable too, after I pointed out some things about the stinking debate skills of others, he has backed off and just having fair dialogue, no cheap attacks! Sayak is kind of going in a bad direction and getting out of hand, emotion will do that

Actually it was you who belittled your own claims of being a good artist, I just quoted your post. For anyone who is interested, here is the actual post you are referring to: Why do some creationists think evolution = atheism?

Which actually goes back to your belittling my statement that I had been in a wheelchair due to advanced rheumatoid arthritis. Again, here's the post: Why do some creationists think evolution = atheism?

So, based on the evidence, you are both a hypocrite and a liar. This is an example of the difference between evidence and opinion. Please learn something. Now can we move on.

So, as I was saying (Why do some creationists think evolution = atheism?) ...

You should realize that even if you could somehow find enough gaps in evolution, that does not in any way automatically make creationism right. Any other concept would have to stand on it's own.

So why not actually try to defend what you believe to be true about biology?

Tell us all how your understanding of how biology works can be used to advance our ability to improve human healthcare? Medicines? Biologicals? Procedures? Anything?

How about how your understanding of biology can improve crop resistance and yields to help feed the world?

Or do you even see these are important goals for biological research?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

You may not call it a path, but Jesus did. He said that there are just two roads and that all of us are on either one or the other. (Matthew 7:13-14) One path or road leads to everlasting life, the other to everlasting death....we choose our own path. So If you have chosen your path in confidence, then who am I to try and turn you back? Happy trails.....

Jesus' opinion is not mine, and has no authority with me.

Yes, I have chosen a path, and am very satisfied with it. I hope that yours has satisfied you at least half as much as mine has satisfied me.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

So why not actually try to defend what you believe to be true about biology?

Tell us all how your understanding of how biology works can be used to advance our ability to improve human healthcare? Medicines? Biologicals? Procedures? Anything?

How about how your understanding of biology can improve crop resistance and yields to help feed the world?

Or do you even see these are important goals for biological research?

This one of the many questions that virtually always goes unanswered: What can you replace evolutionary theory with that can do more than it does? You'll hear endless complaints about what is wrong with the theory, but nobody can suggest a more useful interpretation of the evidence.

Other such questions include specifying the line between micro- and macroevolution, explaining what could possibly prevent one from becoming the other, and what a "kind" is.

I also get a lot of dead air when I ask people to present me with an original moral precept worth preserving from the mouth of Jesus.

The silence speaks for itself.

Anybody regarding any of those? Regarding the last one, you'll probably have to get into biblical hermeneutics mode and redefine many words and phrases to make the ideas into good ones, such as changing "Blessed are the meek" to some other adjective like humble, or "turning the other cheek" into forgiveness.

What's a "kind," Dejee? You referred to Darwin's finches not morphing into non-finches in their time on the Galapagos. Are finches a kind? Or are they only a part of a kind, the perching songbirds (Order Passeriformes)?

 

[Deeje]

So why not actually try to defend what you believe to be true about biology?

Animals; Biodiversity; Biomimetics; Bionics; Cells; Creation; DNA [Deoxyribonucleic Acid]; Evolution; Genetics; Life; Plants; Protein; Symbiosis

Pick one.

Tell us all how your understanding of how biology works can be used to advance our ability to improve human healthcare? Medicines? Biologicals? Procedures? Anything?

Here are some reasons why the Israelites maintained a better measure of health than other nations.....

(1) The diet of the Hebrews did not normally include a great deal of meat, but when a family wanted to slaughter a domestic animal for meat, they took the animal to the sanctuary. (Le 17:3-5; De 12:20-27) They ate the meat after the priest offered some of it on the altar and received his portion. Some communion sacrifices were to be eaten on the same day. Others could not be eaten after the second day, but the flesh was to be burned with fire. Considering Palestine’s warm climate and the lack of refrigeration, these requirements safeguarded the Israelites against febrile illnesses that can result from toxins that are produced when certain organisms multiply rapidly on meat that is not kept under refrigeration, such as Staphylococcus aureus and Salmonella.

(2) The flesh of certain prohibited animals, such as pigs, hares, carrion-eating animals and birds, rodents, and certain water animals and fish, is known to be a possible contributory factor in various diseases that are often accompanied by fever. (Le 11:1-31)

(3) The sanitary regulations helped safeguard the cooking utensils and also the drinking-water supply from contamination, a source of typhoid and other febrile diseases. (Le 11:32-38)

(4) Anyone either touching the body of an animal that died of itself or eating some of it had to cleanse himself, thus safeguarding against the spread of organisms identified with certain febrile diseases. (Le 11:39, 40)

(5) The laws commanding the covering of fecal waste by each individual, also the covering of blood with dust, protected against febrile diseases such as hepatitis. (Le 17:13; De 23:12, 13)

(6) The moral laws would practically eliminate all sexually transmitted disease, which disease can affect all organs of the body and is frequently accompanied by fever. (Le 18:20, 22, 23)

(7) The quarantine laws worked to prevent the spread of infectious diseases.—Le 13; Nu 19:11, 12, 16; 31:19.

The laws that God gave them kept them relatively healthy. No humans had knowledge of such things back then.....these rules could only have come from a source that had such knowledge. Why not the Creator?

How about how your understanding of biology can improve crop resistance and yields to help feed the world?

Why not talk about GMO crops and how illnesses have increased because of this biological tampering? Biology might be used to improve resistance to disease in the crop, but the use of herbicides and pesticides has been slowly poisoning us for decades. Chemical waste contaminates our water supplies and chemical pollution ruins the very air we breathe....all products of science.

We have enough food to feed the world.....what we don't have is the political or financial will to do it. Someone mentioned today that if the money spent bombing Syria had been spent on medicine and food for the refugees, it might have saved lives instead of taking more.

Or do you even see these are important goals for biological research?

The goals for biological research might seem noble until you actually find out what motivates a lot of them. Especially is this seen in medical science. Each year we see enormous amounts of money ploughed into "research"...a seemingly endless search for cures that never come. Cancer and heart disease continue to take countless thousands of lives every year. Drugs are developed all the time to "treat" these illnesses, but there are no "cures", despite all attempts to find them. I believe that biology has, to a large extent, been hijacked by greed. "Treatments" assure the drug companies of a continuous stream of customers for the rest of their miserable lives. "Cures" will never be allowed to surface because there is no profit in curing any of them. What about all those "breakthroughs" we hear about, that will take at least 10 years to get to market? Yet 10 years on, we never hear about them again. We are no further forward than we were decades ago. Chemotherapy, radiation and surgery are our only medical options for cancer....yet all three make cancer worse. Each cost ridiculous amounts of money and yet very few people can claim a complete cure.....the cancer almost always seems to return with a vengeance.

It isn't science that is the problem...it is evil men's use of science that creates the current chaos we see in the world today.

Each generation is weaker than the last...morally, physically and spiritually.....the biological gene pool has become a virtual cess pool.

 

[Thumper]

Animals; Biodiversity; Biomimetics; Bionics; Cells; Creation; DNA [Deoxyribonucleic Acid]; Evolution; Genetics; Life; Plants; Protein; Symbiosis

Pick one.



Here are some reasons why the Israelites maintained a better measure of health than other nations.....

(1) The diet of the Hebrews did not normally include a great deal of meat, but when a family wanted to slaughter a domestic animal for meat, they took the animal to the sanctuary. (Le 17:3-5; De 12:20-27) They ate the meat after the priest offered some of it on the altar and received his portion. Some communion sacrifices were to be eaten on the same day. Others could not be eaten after the second day, but the flesh was to be burned with fire. Considering Palestine’s warm climate and the lack of refrigeration, these requirements safeguarded the Israelites against febrile illnesses that can result from toxins that are produced when certain organisms multiply rapidly on meat that is not kept under refrigeration, such as Staphylococcus aureus and Salmonella.

(2) The flesh of certain prohibited animals, such as pigs, hares, carrion-eating animals and birds, rodents, and certain water animals and fish, is known to be a possible contributory factor in various diseases that are often accompanied by fever. (Le 11:1-31)

(3) The sanitary regulations helped safeguard the cooking utensils and also the drinking-water supply from contamination, a source of typhoid and other febrile diseases. (Le 11:32-38)

(4) Anyone either touching the body of an animal that died of itself or eating some of it had to cleanse himself, thus safeguarding against the spread of organisms identified with certain febrile diseases. (Le 11:39, 40)

(5) The laws commanding the covering of fecal waste by each individual, also the covering of blood with dust, protected against febrile diseases such as hepatitis. (Le 17:13; De 23:12, 13)

(6) The moral laws would practically eliminate all sexually transmitted disease, which disease can affect all organs of the body and is frequently accompanied by fever. (Le 18:20, 22, 23)

(7) The quarantine laws worked to prevent the spread of infectious diseases.—Le 13; Nu 19:11, 12, 16; 31:19.

The laws that God gave them kept them relatively healthy. No humans had knowledge of such things back then.....these rules could only have come from a source that had such knowledge. Why not the Creator?



Why not talk about GMO crops and how illnesses have increased because of this biological tampering? Biology might be used to improve resistance to disease in the crop, but the use of herbicides and pesticides has been slowly poisoning us for decades. Chemical waste contaminates our water supplies and chemical pollution ruins the very air we breathe....all products of science.

We have enough food to feed the world.....what we don't have is the political or financial will to do it. Someone mentioned today that if the money spent bombing Syria had been spent on medicine and food for the refugees, it might have saved lives instead of taking more.



The goals for biological research might seem noble until you actually find out what motivates a lot of them. Especially is this seen in medical science. Each year we see enormous amounts of money ploughed into "research"...a seemingly endless search for cures that never come. Cancer and heart disease continue to take countless thousands of lives every year. Drugs are developed all the time to "treat" these illnesses, but there are no "cures", despite all attempts to find them. I believe that biology has, to a large extent, been hijacked by greed. "Treatments" assure the drug companies of a continuous stream of customers for the rest of their miserable lives. "Cures" will never be allowed to surface because there is no profit in curing any of them. What about all those "breakthroughs" we hear about, that will take at least 10 years to get to market? Yet 10 years on, we never hear about them again. We are no further forward than we were decades ago. Chemotherapy, radiation and surgery are our only medical options for cancer....yet all three make cancer worse. Each cost ridiculous amounts of money and yet very few people can claim a complete cure.....the cancer almost always seems to return with a vengeance.

It isn't science that is the problem...it is evil men's use of science that creates the current chaos we see in the world today.

Each generation is weaker than the last...morally, physically and spiritually.....the biological gene pool has become a virtual cess pool.

So you have nothing to offer in place of our current understanding of biological evolution. Just more lame shots at a science that you seem to think challenges your beliefs.