Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
Even those were gradual, and they did not appear overnight as many creationists claim. 20 million years is not rapid.
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Why do some creationists think evolution = atheism?
- Thread starter Jose Fly
- Start date
gnostic
The Lost One
What I find absurd, coming from creationists, is that they often see the distinction between micro- and macro- evolution, which don't exist in biology, but they cannot see the distinction between evolution and abiogenesis, as two different fields of studies.
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Derek500
Wish I could change this to AUD
I don't think so and it's not true.
No assumptions involved. The empirical, verifiable evidence show that the first forms of life, as we know and define life, were some form of prokaryotes.
The empirical, verifiable evidence show that prokaryotes were around for billions of years before eukaryotes appear.
The empirical, verifiable evidence also show that prokaryotes undergo all kinds inheratable changes with every generation. And undergo all kinds of selective and adaptive changes as the generations come and go.
The studies show that those genetic changes don't stop. That's not an assumption. It's fact.
Oh, this is waaaaaay off the subject. Let's remind people what the subject is: Why do some creationists think evolution = atheism?
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Several times now, I've seen in this and other forums, creationists operate under the assumption that evolution = atheism, where if a person is an "evolutionist" they must also be an atheist. This is odd, as the data shows that in the developed world, the majority of people who recognize evolution as reality are theists.
Public Acceptance of Evolution (Miller et al., 2006)
Here's the figure illustrating the level of acceptance of evolution in the developed world....
As you can see, in most of the developed world recognition of the reality of evolution is a majority opinion. Couple that with other data showing that, at the most, atheists constitute ~13% of the world's population, and we see that it is mathematically impossible for even a majority of "evolutionists" to be atheists, let alone all of them.
So why then do so many creationists persist in this falsehood?
I believe it's a reflection of a black/white mindset that is typical of fundamentalist thinking. In that way of viewing the world, complex issues are often boiled down to a simple binary choice. In this case, it's one is either a true Bible-believing Christian, or one is a atheist. Nuances or shades of gray are not considered. I've seen this sort of mentality expressed many times by creationists over the years, where they say things like "If evolution is true, we may as well throw the Bible in the trash".
What do others think?
To be honest, I feel a certain sympathy for Christians who do that. I really do not see how evolution by natural selection can be coherently squared with any of the Abrahamic religions.
At best, I could remind them that evolution by natural selection does not entail atheism, but only the disbelief in benevolent and efficient gods, whose final target of Their creation is clear in their Minds. In other words, gods who know what they want. Ergo, that it entails disbelief in the Christian God, but not necessarily in a kind of deistic god.
Ciao
- viole
Jose Fly
Fisker of men
Well, as the data shows apparently a lot of Christians don't seem to have a problem with it.
I guess that would be something to discuss with a Christian who is also an "evolutionist". It's not something I can really speak to.
Don't "seem" is appropriate. And there is a difference between having no problem and being logically coherent.
Open invitation to all Christians who support evolution by natural selection. And not by tweaked selection, obviously.
Bring it on.
Ciao
- viole
leibowde84
Veteran Member
Evolution does not deal with the "foundation of life" or any "starting point" of life. It is the evolution/speciation of lifeforms on earth (and possibly beyond) by natural selection and genetic mutations.
Jose Fly
Fisker of men
Well, if we started down the road of religious beliefs that aren't logically coherent.........
"Gradual"? No.
'The "Cambrian Explosion" refers to the sudden appearance in the fossil record of complex animals with mineralized skeletal remains.'
--excerpt from The Cambrian Explosion - Origin of Animals and the Cambrian Explosion - Science - The Burgess Shale
New life 'suddenly appearing' over the course of 20 million years? Yes. The evidence (and diversity) discovered, agrees more with the Genesis creation model combining separate creative events, but y'all will never accept that; materialists will continue to say the "fossil record is incomplete." For CDers, it always will be.
And as worshippers of Jehovah as our Creator, we understand why He formed the genetics of animals to evolve in a limited fashion over time, but y'all would never believe it.
Shad
Veteran Member
You read "sudden" in the wrong context and cried foul, nothing more.
Oh....sudden means gradual, then? No, it doesn't, but then you have 'punctuated equilibrium' to fall back on. There'll always be some far-fetched idea for you guys to cling to.
Faith, anyone?
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
You may want to consider your own source:
While the explosion was rapid in geological terms, it took place over millions of years
Some sources will phrase it "relatively" rapidly, because 20 million years is not rapid or sudden.
No it doesn't. There actually is not a shred of evidence to support a Genesis account of creation.
I challenge and doubt this, as such a thing is not a part of the Bible.
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Shad
Veteran Member
I never put forward this definition
Congratulation on knocking down your own strawman.
Get a dictionary. Open up the page with sudden and read what it says.
Says the person making up my arguments as he goes. Hilarious.
Get a dictionary. Use it.
First of all...
faith
fāTH/
noun
1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
The very first definition applies to me, and you.
Whereas I put my confidence in the Bible as God's Word (for many reasons), you seem to put your confidence in men who interpret the evidence to **fit** their beliefs.
Curious: do you think all paranormal activity is fake?
Second point:
sud·den
ˈsədn/
adjective
- 1.
occurring or done quickly and unexpectedly or without warning.
It has nothing to do with the completeness of the fossil record or materialism. There is no reason to believe in any god. A skeptic is a person who needs a reason to believe something.
From my post:
'The "Cambrian Explosion" refers to the sudden appearance in the fossil record of complex animals with mineralized skeletal remains.'
--excerpt from The Cambrian Explosion - Origin of Animals and the Cambrian Explosion - Science - The Burgess Shale
Your response:
I do appreciate your replies.
However, we're not discussing 'geology', the Explosion is about life.
I agree, 20 million years is not sudden, but yet that's the word used. It was the abrupt appearance of many phyla, during those years. Phyla still in existence today.
As for your challenge of my statement, "we understand why He (Jehovah) formed the genetics of animals to evolve in a limited fashion over time."....
Where does the Bible say God put Adam and Eve at their start? Was it a slum? No, a beautiful garden.
Were they starving? No, the account tells us they had plenty.
Did God act like a tyrant? No! They only had 3 laws to follow, and only one was prohibitive. (The other two were enjoyable: 1. take care of the Garden, and 2. procreate.) That was it! How loving!
And you know what? Being created perfect, they were to never die! To live forever! (It hinged on obedience. It always does.)
[This is important to keep in mind.]
This is also the promise for Mankind in the near future (Revelation 21:3-4, "the tent of God is with mankind......and death will be no more.) That means eternal life for obedient humans on this Earth, which is what Adam lost for us. This includes all those who've died; they'll be resurrected back to life! Your loved ones and mine.
All made possible through the ransom sacrifice of His Son. (More love shown.) Would you let your Son die an agonizing death to save strangers?
It's obvious, right from the start of the Genesis account of man's creation, that God wanted obedient humans to live a good, enjoyable life. Although the Edenic rebellion raised issues that required time to be settled, once for all time, God's purpose for man and the Earth wasn't altered.
So the animals changing over time, forming new species, was for our benefit. In order that, each of us living forever, we'd never get bored and could enjoy such wonderful variety, since it's called the spice of life.
(As Jehovah's Witnesses, we're encouraged to read and meditate on the Scriptures daily, with the goal of learning what the passages tell us about Jehovah.)
Take care.
I probably wasted my time, didn't I?
'The "Cambrian Explosion" refers to the sudden appearance in the fossil record of complex animals with mineralized skeletal remains.'
--excerpt from The Cambrian Explosion - Origin of Animals and the Cambrian Explosion - Science - The Burgess Shale
Your response:
I do appreciate your replies.
However, we're not discussing 'geology', the Explosion is about life.
I agree, 20 million years is not sudden, but yet that's the word used. It was the abrupt appearance of many phyla, during those years. Phyla still in existence today.
As for your challenge of my statement, "we understand why He (Jehovah) formed the genetics of animals to evolve in a limited fashion over time."....
Where does the Bible say God put Adam and Eve at their start? Was it a slum? No, a beautiful garden.
Were they starving? No, the account tells us they had plenty.
Did God act like a tyrant? No! They only had 3 laws to follow, and only one was prohibitive. (The other two were enjoyable: 1. take care of the Garden, and 2. procreate.) That was it! How loving!
And you know what? Being created perfect, they were to never die! To live forever! (It hinged on obedience. It always does.)
[This is important to keep in mind.]
This is also the promise for Mankind in the near future (Revelation 21:3-4, "the tent of God is with mankind......and death will be no more.) That means eternal life for obedient humans on this Earth, which is what Adam lost for us. This includes all those who've died; they'll be resurrected back to life! Your loved ones and mine.
All made possible through the ransom sacrifice of His Son. (More love shown.) Would you let your Son die an agonizing death to save strangers?
It's obvious, right from the start of the Genesis account of man's creation, that God wanted obedient humans to live a good, enjoyable life. Although the Edenic rebellion raised issues that required time to be settled, once for all time, God's purpose for man and the Earth wasn't altered.
So the animals changing over time, forming new species, was for our benefit. In order that, each of us living forever, we'd never get bored and could enjoy such wonderful variety, since it's called the spice of life.
(As Jehovah's Witnesses, we're encouraged to read and meditate on the Scriptures daily, with the goal of learning what the passages tell us about Jehovah.)
Take care.
I probably wasted my time, didn't I?
We have no need of faith, either.
Punctuated equilibrium accounts for evidence that suggests that evolution proceeds more quickly at times and more slowly at others. The theory accounts for the data.
Why would we abandon a theory that unifies so many observations, proves a mechanism to account for them, makes predictions about what can and cannot be found that have never been contradicted by evidence, and has been used to our benefit in fields such as medicine and agriculture?
Why would we turn that in for an unsupported, unfalsifiable idea that can do none of those things? Reason applied to evidence, not faith. One takes you to evolution, the other to creationism if that is what you were raised to believe.
The complexity of Life began through an accident, huh?
Words like "accident" and "random" are not synonymous with undesigned. The shape of a planet is undesigned, but not an accident or random. Likewise with the shape of its orbit.
The origin of life appears to have been unplanned. We don't have a planner. But we do have chemistry and thermodynamics.
Why would you assume otherwise? No aspect of science has benefited from a god concept.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
It's a shorter period of time, but myself, I argue sudden isn't a very good term, because it happened as more of a "kind-of sort-of quickly."
If god created them "perfect," then that would mean Satan is more powerful than god as he managed to "un-Perfect them." And because God is powerless to fix the corruption, he punishes those who don't bow to him. Some god he is.