Why do people enjoy attacking the Catholic church so much

[chuck010342]

This is about the only thing I believe is true, the only problem is that the "Bible" is not "God's" word, it is many mens' (mis)interpretation of it. It is many mens' distortion of it for personal gain.

the bible is Gods word it was written by human authors that were inspired by the holy spirit

 

[chuck010342]

I do, and I still have time for you

well thats interesting now what does God say about me being wrong then?

 

[Trinitas]

They kept Gods word from it`s intended people.[/color]


It is now of course just as divorce is NOW acceptable.
Just as NOW the Church accepts a heliocentric solar system.
Just as NOW a woman can serve at the alter.
Just as NOW] evolution can be harmonized with scripture.
Just as many many things the Catholic Church has had to change it`s stance on because it was so obviously wrong and simply unacceptable.

Linwood,
First of all, the Church does not recognize divorce, never has, never will. You're just flat wrong on this point.

Secondly, none of the things you mentioned concern a change in Church teaching. For example, the Church never taught the geocentric model of the solar system. The geocentric model was a worldview inherrited from the Greeks (Ptolomy). The Bible does not teach geocentrism, but merely gives phenomenological descriptions of the world. We do the same thing today. For example, the weatherman still says, "Sunrise will be at 6:30am." From a phenomenological standpoint, this statement is correct, even if it is not accurate from a literal scientific standpoint. After all, the sun does not really rise, does it? Technically, the correct way to put it would be "earth-turn."

Thirdly, women serving at the altar is not a matter of Church teaching. It is a matter of discipline, not doctrine. Therefore, this is a moot point. This issue is complicated, but it goes to the Council of Trent. The Council of Trent provided for the establishment of seminaries, schools that train priests. Prior to Trent, priests were trained in local parishes. Now, before being ordained, a candidate for the priesthood must be installed into what are called, "minor offices". These minor offices include the ministry of "acolyte." An acolyte is someone who is preparing for the priesthood. Therefore, women cannot be acolytes. Before Trent, acolytes served in parishes, but after Trent they were moved into the seminaries. The confusion over women serving at the altar surrounds the fact that they are mistakenly thought to be acolytes - which they are not.

You say that the Church has changed many things that are just not considered acceptable today, but I defy you to come up with even one official doctrine that has been changed.

The point is the Catholic Church kept the scripture from it`s congregation and instead told the people their version of the story.
Much like the situation you earlier warned against in Islam.

The Church has never kept the Bible from her people. This is a common fable that has no basis in truth. You have to be mindful of the fact that before the advent of the printing press, Bibles were very rare and very expensive. They were hand-crafted works of art, often gilded with gold and other precious metals and gemstones. Therefore, they were kept in safe places when they were not being read to the congregations at mass. Furthermore, most people throughout history have been illiterate. The medieval Catholics couldn't read to begin with, so what good would having a Bible have done them anyway? After the advent of the printing press, printed material could be mass produced at a far less economic cost, which lead to an increase in literacy. So, there was no nefarious Church motive at work here. The phenomenon that average people didn't have access to the Bible was due to the fact that Bibles were rare and expensive, and that the average person was illiterate anyway. It had nothing to do with a Church conspiracy to conceal the Word of God.

 

[huajiro]

the bible is Gods word it was written by human authors that were inspired by the holy spirit

How old are you?

I don't think you were there to see "God" pass the word on to the authors, and I know you weren't there when all the different translators passed it from one language to the next, adding their own ideas. Please tell me how you know it is "God's" word untouched.

 

[huajiro]

Trinity:

Why don't you ever answer me in the forums?

 

[linwood]

How old are you?

I don't think you were there to see "God" pass the word on to the authors, and I know you weren't there when all the different translators passed it from one language to the next, adding their own ideas. Please tell me how you know it is "God's" word untouched.

Not to mention he wasn`t present when the Church was picking and choosing what text would eventually become the Bible while the others were destroyed.

 

[Trinity]

This is about the only thing I believe is true, the only problem is that the "Bible" is not "God's" word, it is many mens' (mis)interpretation of it. It is many mens' distortion of it for personal gain.

Not always

 

[Trinity]

Trinity:

Why don't you ever answer me in the forums?

Ask a question. You only make deflamatory comments. It seems you have spent too much time watching howad stern

 

[Pah]

Gentlemen - it is time for cooler heads to prevail.

-pah-

 

[linwood]

First of all, the Church does not recognize divorce, never has, never will. You're just flat wrong on this point.

I concede the point.

Secondly, none of the things you mentioned concern a change in Church teaching. For example, the Church never taught the geocentric model of the solar system. The geocentric model was a worldview inherrited from the Greeks (Ptolomy).

The Catholic Church has made a habit out of blaming the Protestants for Galileos persecution. I don`t know how they pulled this off since it was the Catholic Church that imprisoned Galileo and struck fear into Copernicus` heart.

The Church placed Copernicus` "On the Revolution of Celestial Spheres" on it`s prohibited book list in 1616 when Galileo started using it to support a heliocentric solar system.
In 1616 the Church held a tribunal of theological scholars who decided Copernicus` theory of a heliocentric solar system contradicted Catholic faith with this statement...

" [font=&quot]"Philosophically (i.e., scientifically) foolish and absurd, and is considered official heresy because it explicitly contradicts the meaning of Scripture in many places, in terms of the verbal significance of the words and in terms of the accepted interpretation and understanding of the Church Fathers and the Doctors of Theology."[/font]
[font=&quot]http://muse.tau.ac.il/museum/galileo/prohibition_helioce.html[/font]

[font=&quot]After this council made this determination Galileos was told by cardinal bellamine that he could no longer speak of, teach, publish , or believe in heliocentricy.[/font]
[font=&quot]This is the text of the document ..[/font]

[font=&quot]

[/font]
At the palace of the usual residence of the said Most Illustrious Lord Cardinal Bellarmine and in the chambers of His most Illustrious Lordship, and fully in the presence of the Reverend Father Michelangelo Segizzi of Lodi, O.P. and Commissary General of the Holy Office, having summoned the above-mentioned Galileo before himself, the same Most Illustrious Lord Cardinal warned Galileo that the above-mentioned opinion was erroneous and that he should abandon it; and thereafter, indeed immediately, before me and witnesses, the Most-Illustrious Lord Cardinal himself being also present still, the aforesaid Father Commissary, in the name of His Holiness the Pope and the whole Congregation of the Holy Office, ordered and enjoined the said Galileo, who was himself still present, to abandon completely the above-mentioned opinion that the sun stands still at the center of the world and the earth moves, and henceforth not to hold, teach, or defend in any way whatever, either orally or in writing; otherwise the Holy Office would start proceedings against him. The same Galileo acquiesced in this injunction and promised to obey.
http://muse.tau.ac.il/museum/galileo/prohibition_helioce.html

The Church did deny a heliocentric system and support geocentric system.
There is more documentation to support this conclusion

http://home.cwru.edu/~sjr16/pre20th_europe_church.html

The Bible does not teach geocentrism, but merely gives phenomenological descriptions of the world.

I`m not discussing the Bible, I`m discussing the Catholic Church.
However Joshua 10:12-14 seems to be in agreement with geocentrism.
The sun stood still, for this to be the extraordinary event the passage makes it one can only believe the sun didn`t normally stand still...Geocentrism

Thirdly, women serving at the altar is not a matter of Church teaching. It is a matter of discipline, not doctrine.

It`s a matter of discrimination.
Thats a point I have already proven.
You may continue to rationalize it as much as you like though.

You say that the Church has changed many things that are just not considered acceptable today, but I defy you to come up with even one official doctrine that has been changed.

The Church NOW allows it`s followers to read the Bible.
They have changed that official edict.

The Church has never kept the Bible from her people. This is a common fable that has no basis in truth.

It`s no fable.
The Catholic Church placed the Bible on it`s Prohibited books list right along with Copernicus` "On the Revolution of Celestial Spheres".
Do you deny this?

The medieval Catholics couldn't read to begin with, so what good would having a Bible have done them anyway?

Thats nice, you`re too stupid to have a Bible..I like that.
It`s not altogether true however since many Catholics could indeed read or the Protestants would have been protesting nothing.
I have one Catholic telling me the Bible was banned because it was too valuable and another telling me it was banned because of fear of misinterpretation.
Which is it?

The phenomenon that average people didn't have access to the Bible was due to the fact that Bibles were rare and expensive, and that the average person was illiterate anyway. It had nothing to do with a Church conspiracy to conceal the Word of God.

Wrong the Catholic Church did indeed ban the Bible to all but the clergy or those with special exception ..this is fact.



Decree by the Council of Trent, approved by Pope Pius I

Since it is clear from experience that if the Sacred Books are permitted everywhere and without discrimination in the vernacular, there will by reason of the boldness of men arise therefrom more harm than good, the matter is in this respect left to the judgment of the bishop or inquisitor, who may with the advice of the pastor or confessor permit the reading of the Sacred Books translated into the vernacular by Catholic authors to those who they know will derive from such reading no harm but rather an increase of faith and piety, which permission they must have in writing. Those, however, who presume to read or possess them without such permission may not receive absolution from their sins till they have handed them over to the ordinary. Bookdealers who sell or in any other way supply Bibles written in the vernacular to anyone who has not this permission, shall lose the price of the books, which is to be applied by the bishop to pious purposes, and in keeping with the nature of the crime they shall be subject to other penalties which are left to the judgment of the same bishop. Regulars who have not the permission of their superiors may not read or purchase them.



http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/trent-booksrules.html

Your defense by “Great Value” doesn`t hold up so well when you read the actual wording of the 4th rule of the Council of Trent concerning prohibited books.



They were afraid people would come to their own conclusions about what the word of God really was and they sought to stop that.

Like they did with the Arians, Gnostics, Albigenses, and many others.

 

[Pah]

First of all, the Church does not recognize divorce, never has, never will. You're just flat wrong on this point.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, it is fair to say it is a duck.

A thirty-plus year marriage with children being annulled sure looks like a divorce to me. I was best man for the "rightful" marriage of Catholic friends and godfather to the grandchildren of the marriage that was not "proper". Of course the baptism was at a time when the Catholic Church did not recognize my godchildren as ********.

-pah-

 

[linwood]

Pedophile Priests

Everyone is aware of this breaking out in the 90`s but not many outside of the church are aware of the fact that it is not a new problem.

The mainstream "revelation" of the sexual abuse of the innocents who gave their very souls to the monsters who put themselves in the position of holders of the divine light wasn’t much of a revelation to begin with.
Most who were deeply involved with the Catholic Church had at the very least hidden suspicions of this dirty little secret.
Their silence and complicity enabled this disgusting pastime to thrive within their ranks.

The assertion by the Vatican that this is merely a few isolated incidents is outrageous.

It is a methodical, manipulation and cover-up of what my moral values tell me is the worst possible sin.

Abusing children in their care, sexually abusing them at that.

The depths of this cancer worldwide are well documented and still coming into the light but even a cursory study of the issue by a total neophyte will bring astonishment.

This abuse has been going on for generations and is a part of the culture of Catholicism.

But not just within the clergy ranks.

This cannot be pinned on mere individuals within the Church .

Numerous arch-bishops have resigned due to their complicity in the cover-up, pay offs, and abetting these crimes.

Knowingly, purposely, allowing pedophiles to continue their illegal, immoral, perversions .

This scandal runs right to the highest ranks of the church.
What is done to repent this sin?
What offer or penance could the church possibly think of to atone and correct?
Nothing, they do nothing.

The Pope has condemned the priests and some of them have been de-frocked.
The de-frocking came slow, too slow.

The Church then immediately blamed the victims, again, and again.

Cardinal Bernard Law filed a reply to the lawsuit of one of his priests victims. A man this priest began raping when he was 6 years old and continued molesting him for 3 years.

Laws reply to this law suit was…

“The defendant says that the Plaintiffs were not in the exercise of due care, but rather the negligence of the Plaintiffs contributed to cause the injury or damage complained of."

According to Cardinal Law the boy’s parents were to blame because they left him in the care of their priest.

This is serious blaming the victim.

He is not only admitting that his priest repeatedly raped their 6 year old boy he is telling them it was their fault.

Audacity!!!

If this man retires to Heaven then I’ll beg for eternity in Hell.

This is the Moral guide of the souls of the Archdiocese of Boston?

Where is the compassion?

This move shows that the leadership of the Church has no clue what is going on in the real world yet they post their ridiculous edicts to it regularly.

There has been no acceptable reform within the Church to fix this inherent problem.

What was Cardinal Law’s punishment for his enabling and even hiding the rape of children by his priests?
He retired from his job overseeing the Archdiocese of Boston.
There’s not much of an Archdiocese left after lawsuits forced the sale of 65 churches.


He was then immediately given a new post overseeing one of four major Roman Basilicas.
This is the pinnacle of his career, he can go no higher. This is punishment?

They’ve rewarded him for his valiant attempts to hide these sick priests and allow then to continue raping children!!
Thousands and thousands of children have been molested/raped by Catholic priests worldwide.The official stance of the head of the church is cover- up, blame the victim, or pay them off if you can.

This is the peak of arrogant self importance, to place the perversions of the Church and these Priests above the welfare of innocent children.

I’m going to stop now but I could write reams and reams on the topic of this one evil alone.

 

[chuck010342]

How old are you?

I don't think you were there to see "God" pass the word on to the authors, and I know you weren't there when all the different translators passed it from one language to the next, adding their own ideas. Please tell me how you know it is "God's" word untouched.

I'm 22

no I wasn't there but God sure as hell was

 

[Quoth The Raven]

I'm 22

no I wasn't there but God sure as hell was

And you would know this for sure by the postmark on the postcard he sent you that said,'Having a lovely time, wish you were here. Love, God'?

 

[kreeden]

Thank you, Catholicism does go against much of what politicians have in store for us.

But politics work both ways . Many Churchs are political , the Church of England for excample , which is lead by the Crowned Head of England . However the Church of Rome has always been a very political church and remains so today . Not saying that is wrong in it's self , religion should effect day to day life afterall . But if you play the political game , then you can expect to have the play returned to you , in all of it's glory ... :|

 

[SoulTYPE]

I'm 22

no I wasn't there but God sure as hell was

Too many Stone Cold Stunners?

 

[precept]

Good posts Linwood.....We await the rebuttals!

precept

 

[precept]

Your profile reads....Religion?--None!

But you sure seem to be ringing the Protestant's "bell".


precept

 

[precept]

Linwood,
You say that the Church has changed many things that are just not considered acceptable today, but I defy you to come up with even one official doctrine that has been changed.

For the sake of a civilized world; I hope that the doctrine that mitigates and condemns "heretics" to the torture chambers and the "stake", has been changed. Otherwise all religions that do not teach as the Roman Catholic church teaches are in fact heretical religions and are in condemnation to the "torture chambers" and "the stake"; that is; if the Roman Catholic church has not "changed".

History records the last words of John Huss as he was burnt at the stake as an heretic by the barbarians if yesteryears....and all done in the name of a religion that poses as the "representative religion of God" on earth.

"For the last time, Huss was brought before the council. It was a vast and brilliant assembly--the emperor, the princes of the empire, the royal deputies, the cardinals,bishops, and priests, and an immense crowd who had come as spectators of the events of the day......Being called upon for his final decision, Huss declared his refusal to abjure.....Sentence having been pronounced, the ceremony of degradation began. The bishops clothed their prisoner in the sacerdotal habit, and as he took the priestly robe, he said: "Our Lord Jesus Christ was covered with a white robe, by way of insult, when Herod had him conducted before Pilate." Bonnechose vol. 2, p.84-86. Being again exhorted to retract, he replied, turning towards the people: " With what face, then, should I behold the heavens? How should I look on those multitudes of men to whom I have preached the pure gospel? No; I esteem their salvation more than this poor body, now appointed unto death."

The vestments were removed one by one, each bishop pronouncing a curse as he performed his part of the ceremony. Finally "they put on his head a cap or pyramidal-shaped miter of paper, on which were painted frightful figures of demons, with the word 'Archheretic' conspicuous in front. 'Most joyfull," said Huss, 'will I wear this crown of shame for thy sake, O Lord Jesus, who for me didst wear a crown of thorns.' "

When he was thus arrayed, "the prelates said, 'Now we devote thy soul to the devil.' 'And I,' said John Huss, lifting up his eyes towards heaven, 'do commit my spirit into thy hands, O Lord Jesus, for thou hast redeemed me.' ".......When the flames kindled about him he began to sing, "Jesus, Thou Son of David, have mercy on me," and so continued till his voice was silenced forever.

I sure hope the Roman Catholic church has changed from this barbarism! And now embrace the true Christian practice of not committing murder!

precept

ps To his credit your present pope has publicly apologized for the barbaric murder of Huss; officially orchestrated by the Roman Catholic church.

 

[Pah]

(Originally Posted by Trinitas)
Linwood,
You say that the Church has changed many things that are just not considered acceptable today, but I defy you to come up with even one official doctrine that has been changed.

Abortion. Celebrate priests.

-pah-