POST ONE OF TWO
Hi
@Gaby Johnson and
@cataway and
@rrobs
1) REGARDING WHETHER THE HOLY SPIRIT KNEW THE ANSWER THE O.P. ASKED
Gaby said :” I always assumed the spirit does know. Many people with the spirit are aware of future events. Revelations explains the entire rapture but does not reveal the date. GOD does not want the date revealed, so the spirit is not allowed to reveal it. The spirit could reveal the date if God allowed it.” (post #229)
Gaby, You could be correct on this point. I don't have enough data to say one way or another. In the later Christian movements that adopted the theory that “God the Father” IS the same as “the Spirit of God”, or those movements theorizing that God, Jesus and the Spirit are the same individual, then some version of your assumption makes sense.
In the earliest Christian movements that believed God the Father, his Son Jesus and the Holy Spirit are different individuals, the question as to why the spirit, OR the Son did not know what the Father knew doesn’t come up at all. Thus, you do not see this question in the earliest sacred literature questions like this come up in the later eras.
2) REGARDING PRE-CREATION EXISTENCE IN EARLY JUDEO-CHRISTIAN (AND ISLAMIC) LITERATURE
I have to disagree a bit with rrobs.
THE EARLY JUDEO-CHRISTIAN BELIEF IN PRE-CREATION EXISTENCE OF SPIRITS
While the Early Judeo-Christian, and even Islamic literature discuss events that happened before creation in very detailed form, one cannot simply say "they got this theology from Plato" since Platos form of pre-existence was not so nearly developed as nor tied to the specific and well developed Hebrew and Christian and Islamic traditions.
For example, the earliest Judeo-Christian belief that Jesus existed “
in the beginning” before creation with God as “the Word” who “
was in the beginning with God“ (John 1:1) and worked in concert with God his Father did not seem to believe this based on Plato, but rather upon their understanding of their own religious traditions and their own interpretations of their own texts and prior Judeo-Christian traditions.
When Jesus claims that he “
I saw Satan, fall like lightning from heaven” (Luke 10:18) , in reference to the “war in heaven” when Lucifer became an enemy to God, descriptions of the pre-existent Word of God and the Choosing of the Messiah, the war in heaven, the fall of satan, etc. are all Judeo-Christian doctrines that were developed far beyond the base idea that Plato described. The Judeo-Christian (and Islamic) version of these events in their literature were very detailed and applied to individuals in ways that Plato never applied them.
When the apostles asked Jesus “
Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" (John 9:2), their assumption that the man was able to sin before his birth, and thus be punished for this sin by being born blind, Jesus did not correct this common assumption but simply told them that the man was not born blind due to sin of parent or self.
WHERE DID PLATO GET THE DOCTRINE?
This Jewish doctrine existed in a very mature form even at 300 b.c. (before Plato was supposed to have died). While Plato may have made his form of this doctrine more popular due to his influence, the Jews had the doctrine and it’s formulation in a much more mature and detailed form firmly inside their own theology. (Remember, Jewish Enoch was written approx 300 b.c. but the traditions in the text are far older that this).
If Platos’ beliefs paralleled the Judeo-Christians on this point, then
good for Plato. However, if some ideas are claimed to have come from pagans, then the next question is ‘where did the pagans get the idea”. The problem is that thes ideas often extend back into the murkier regions of history and “pre-history” such as into the Egyptian texts that existed long before Plato. It is then theorized that the Egyptians got this theology from the Hebrews, (as did the Christians in later eras).
For example: A common egyptian
pyramid text (and there are thousands of such texts) typically reads "
The pharaoh was conceived by his father when there was as yet no heaven, nor earth, nor people... nor were there any dead. And every individual existed when the plan of the ancient Lord of heaven was not yet formulated."
This doctrinal theme continues into the later
coffin texts without a doctrinal ripple : "
I existed before I was born, when the gods did not exist, when as yet there was no bird trap, when the cattle were not yet lassoed. I was formerly; I was of yesterday, a great one among the great and noble ones."
THE HEBREW FORMS OF SUCH DOCTRINES PARALLEL THE EGYPTIAN FORMS
Whereas a coffin text might read:
"Before I was born by hand or born of woman, he created me in the midst of his perfection, which caused to jubilate those who shared in the secrets.”
the same doctrine that existed in Egyptian idiom and symbology existed in Hebrew idiom and in Hebrew symbology. For example, one can hardly avoid recognizing the
similarities between pre-earth “sons of God shouting for joy” (Job 38) of Jewish literature and pre-earth sons of God who were “caused to jubilate ... who shared in the secrets” of Egyptian literature.
The biblical claim in ecclesiates that
“the spirit shall return unto God who gave it” (eccl 12:7) is common to
many ancient religions.
In such theology, God was not being rhetorical in telling Old Testament Jeremiah,
“Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee” - 1:5). It is not merely allegorical knowledge God has of what Jeremiah
would become, but what Jeremiah’s spirit
was before Jeremiah was even born.
For examples, In Secrets of Enoch (Slavonic), the Lord tell Enoch to:
"Sit down and write the names of those who are not yet born and the places which are prepared for them forever; for all the spirits were prepared before the foundation of the earth."
Enoch, the prophet, in turn, preaches this same doctrine to mankind by saying :
"I swear unto you, my children, that before man was made in the womb of his mother, he was prepared; and how each has sojourned in this age that a man might be tested in the balance while he was here."
GREAT EVENTS IN HEAVEN BEFORE CREATION IN JEWISH, CHRISTIAN AND ISLAMIC LITERATURE – THE FALL OF LUCIFER AS AN EXAMPLE
Though the biblical Jesus relates that he
“beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven” (Lk 10:18) the sentence refers to a much larger and more detailed historical tradition.
Biblical John the revelator mentions that “
…there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” (Rev 12:7-9)
Though the three-verse interlude relates to Satans enmity to God, it does not tell us much about
why this war happened. The early Jewish, Christian and Islamic Literature describes this shared history and is one of the few things they agree on very closely.
In the early literature, God has just finished with creation of the planets and is setting about to inhabit the earth with Adam and Eve. God choses a spirit who he will place in the body of Adam who will inaugurate Gods’ plan on earth.
Because of what Adam is about to do, his role in inaugurating the great plan of Salvation of all men, God, the Father, places Adam on a throne and is honored by being given a crown of Glory and a scepter. Jesus relates
“My Father made every order [of angels] in the heavens to come and honor him, whether angel or archangel. And all the hosts of heaven worshiped God first of all, and then they [honored] Adam, saying, “Hail, thou image and likeness of God!” (Christian Discourse on Abbaton)
Christian Cave of Treasures relates the same history scenes thusly:
“There [Adam] was arrayed in the apparel of sovereignty, and there was the crown of glory set upon his head, there was he made king, and priest, and prophet, there did God make him to sit upon his honorable throne, and there did God give him dominion over all creatures and things.” “And the angels and the hosts of heaven heard the Voice of God saying unto him, "Adam, behold; I have made thee king, and priest, and prophet, and lord, and head, and governor of everything which hath been made and created; and they shall be in subjection unto thee) and they shall be thine, and I have given unto thee power over everything which I have created." And when the angels heard this speech they all bowed the knee and [honored] Him.”
The same history is related in Islamic literature many times (at least 6 sura refer to this history). For example, Sura 15 in the Holy Quran relates the same exact scene as follows :
“Behold! Thy Lord said to the angels: “I am about to create man, from sounding clay from mud molded into shape; “When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him.” So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together:” (vs 28-30)
Though there are actually a
series of important controversies, this controversy is common to Christian, Jewish and Islamic records as the (or one of the) controversy that “broke the camel’s back”. Lucifer puts his foot down and gives his reason for not honoring Adam. The reasons vary according the sourcing.
post two of two follows