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Featured Why Didn't the Holy Spirit Know?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by rrobs, Feb 28, 2020.

  1. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    I won't forget the other 5 points, but for now, I'll just say something about this one.

    Is it really that bad that Rotherham made a distinction between the malefactors and the thieves? No! In fact, if they were the same people there would be a glaring contradiction in the scriptures.

    Luke 23:32,

    And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death.
    The malefactors were lead out and crucified with Jesus, i.e. at the same time.

    Matt 27:38,

    Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.
    These guys were crucified some time after Jesus, after the parting his garments (v 35), the sign was affixed to Jesus' cross (v 27), they had given Jesus the sedative. Verse 36 said they sat and watched Jesus for some time.

    Luke 23:39-49 said only one of the malefactors mocked Jesus.

    According to Matthew 27:44 both thieves mocked Jesus.

    John 19:32-33,

    32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
    33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
    Are we to think they broke the first guy's legs, walked past Jesus, not noticing he was already dead, broke the legs of the second guy, and then returned to Jesus to break his legs? I suppose that could be, but it would make way more sense if there were 4 others crucified with Jesus, 2 on each side. That way, they broke one of the thieve's legs, then one of the malafactor's, and then, coming to Jesus, they saw he was already dead so they didn't break his legs, thus fulfilling the OT prophecy that said his bones would not be broken. Seems more plausible, at least to me.

    But in any case, if there were only 2 others crucified with Jesus we would have at least 2 contradictions, the time of the others crucified as well as the number who mocked Jesus. If the thieves and malefactors were in fact 2 different groups, the difficulty is cleared up at once. Having 4 crucified with Jesus, 2 on either side, also makes more sense regarding the breaking of their legs.

    [​IMG]

    This picture is from: Facts of the Crucifixion: More than Three Crosses. » BibleStudy.net - Bible Teaching, Preaching, & Study

    Take care...
     
  2. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    Hi rrobs;

    Regarding rotherham,

    rotherham could have it right.

    I have not studied early Literature for other versions of the crucifixion regarding those crucified with Jesus other than the story of the thief Dymas who becomes an important character in some of the early Christian literature (Dymas is the thief to whom the promise was made that he would be in paradise).

    Rotherham has a.m. interesting grammatical style as well. For example, Rotherham changes the comma in the promise to Dymas such that the phrase is "I say unto you this day, (comma), thou shalt be with me in paradise...). Thus Rotherham creates a different promise to Dymas, the thief. I am going from memory so I am paraphrasing. I am merely pointing out that Rotherhams grammatical style creates a different promise than KJV and rotherham could certainly have it correct. I don't know.

    I do think your thoughts on this point are interesting and insightful.

    kuddos.

    Clear
     
    #222 Clear, Mar 16, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2020
  3. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    I meant to tell you earlier that, at your suggestion, I began reading some of the early Apostolic Fathers. I'd done that a long time ago, but it was a time when I frankly did not believe the scriptures as I do now. Suffice it to say, I'm enjoying the readings. Thanks for the tip!
     
  4. Hawkins

    Hawkins Well-Known Member

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    The purpose of the verse only means that God the Father knows but not God the Son at the moment when He's a man. The Holy Spirit is not mentioned here as it involves the introduction of the Trinity concept, this complicates the situation and will destroy the simplicity of what to be said. I don't introduce calculus if what I would like to say is about algebra.
     
  5. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    Great point on the Rotherham. Love that bible! Rotherham does have many things right comparing with other bibles. Though I do read the KJV and ESV versions the most. That's for your post.
     
  6. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't that seem to be reading a lot into an otherwise simple assertion? I don't see anything in the scriptures that talks about a man "part" of Jesus. He's called a man several times, but never a god-man. For that we must consult the Athanasian Creed, which is clearly extra-biblical. I think it best to stick with the scriptures and nothing but the scriptures when it comes to matters of faith and practice. I think God would agree!
     
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  7. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    Rrobs said : “I meant to tell you earlier that, at your suggestion, I began reading some of the early Apostolic Fathers. I'd done that a long time ago, but it was a time when I frankly did not believe the scriptures as I do now. Suffice it to say, I'm enjoying the readings. Thanks for the tip! “(post #223)


    Hi @rrobs :

    I’m sorry that I did not comment on this post. My work has become very busy and I am distracted from the forum more than before and I don’t have time to organize my thoughts well in this post.

    I AM glad that you are enjoying the apostolic Fathers. While a single text may have its own points of doctrine that seems tailored to their audience, there are certain parallels and themes that come up repeatedly in the various early texts. For example, these specific texts were written in a time when the individuals in the trinity were still three individuals and the “three is really one” model of later centuries (e.g. Nicean model) had not yet been adopted by the Christian movement.

    At the time of the Apostolic Fathers, Christians are still describing the son separately from the Father and the spirit and early texts describe the important role Jesus had in the Fathers plan : "Now, may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal High Priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth and in all gentleness..." The Letter of Polycarp to the Philippians 12:2;

    When I Clement says such things as “As God lives, and as the Lord Jesus Christ lives, and the Holy Spirit...” (1 Clement 58:2) , he is describing them as the other early literature did, as separate individuals.

    For example, though God created the world by Christ, and though he wanted the Christ to be the purveyor of “immortal knowledge”, the Messiah remains the servant of his Father : " ...that the creator of the universe...through his beloved servant Jesus Christ, through whom he called us from darkness to light, from ignorance to the knowledge of the glory of his name. 3 Grant us, Lord, to hope on your name, which is the primal source of all creation, and open the eyes of our hearts, that we may know you, who alone is "Highest among the high, and remains Holy among the holy. 3...from among all of them have chosen those who love you through Jesus Christ, your beloved Servant, through whom you instructed us, sanctified us, honored us." 1 Clement 59:2-3;

    "Let all the nations know that you are the only God, that Jesus Christ is your servant, and that we are your people and the sheep of your pasture." I Clement 59:4; ;

    "For the Scripture speaks about us when he says to the Son: "Let us make man according to our image and likeness, and let them rule over the beasts of the earth and the birds of the air and the fish of the sea." And when he saw that our creation was good, the Lord said: "Increase ad multiply and fill the earth." These things he said to the Son. The Epistle of Barnabas 6:12;

    It is clear that there is something about Jesus’ spirit that is different and more splendid than others and for which superlative excellence, Jesus is Chosen for his role in Gods eternal plan for mankind. "Finally, may the all-seeing God and Master of spirits and Lord of all flesh, who chose the Lord Jesus Christ, and us through him to be his own special people.." 1 Clement 64:1;

    Though the son is begotten of the Father, he has his own will : "But of his Son the Master spoke thus: You are my Son; today I have begotten you. Ask of me, and I will give you the Gentiles for your inheritance and the ends of the earth for your possession." 1st Clement 36:4

    One of the roles of the Son was as an instructor of man who serves the will of his Father. "through him [the son] the Master has willed that we should taste immortal knowledge" 1 Clement 36:2;

    The apostolic Fathers describe in slightly clearer terms regarding the TYPE of unity that Jesus has with his Father.

    "...I congratulate you who are united with him, as the church is with Jesus Christ and as Jesus Christ is with the father, that all things might be harmonious in unity." Ignatius to the Ephesians 5:1;

    "Be subject to the Bishop and to one another, as Jesus Christ in the flesh was to the Father, and as the apostles were to Christ and to the Father, that there might be unity, both physical and spiritual." Ignatius to the Magnesians 13:2;

    "Let there be nothing among you which is capable of dividing you, but be united with the bishop and with those who lead, as an example and a lesson of incorruptibility." Ignatius to the Magnesians 6:2;

    In this early Christianity, It is the Father who resurrects and supports Jesus, rather than describing a Jesus who has authority independent of his Father.

    "who, moreover, really was raised from the dead when his Father raised him up, who his Father, that is in the same way will likewise also raise us up in Christ Jesus.." Ignatius to the Trallians 9:2;

    "But he who raised him [Jesus] from the dead will raise us also, if we do his will and follow his commandments, and love the things he loved, while avoiding every kind of unrighteousness, greed, love of money, slander and false testimony, not repaying evil for evil or insult for insult" (1 pet 3:9); : The Letter of Polycarp to the Philippians 2:2; ;

    "...may he give to you a share and a place among his saints, and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead." The Letter of Polycarp to the Philippians 12:2

    This is also a time when many of the early epistles are being collected but no New Testament yet exists, and the Apostolic texts indicate many of the Christians are not accepting these relatively “new” texts as “scripture”. Ignatius is in the process of trying to encourage Christians to accept these texts. "For I heard some people say, "If I do not find it in the archives [old testament texts] I do not believe it in the gospel." And when I said to them, "It is written," they answered me, "That is precisely the question." But for me, the archives are Jesus Christ,... (archives are what are now called Old Testament Scriptures. Ignatius to the Philadelphians 8:2;

    Regarding Pauls letters he tells them "..if you study them carefully, you will be able to build yourselves up in the faith that has been given to you, which is the mother of us all, while hope follows and the love for God and Christ and for our neighbor leads the way." The Letter of Polycarp to the Philippians 3:3

    As one looks at an even larger swath of early Jewish and Christian and Islamic texts, one finds even larger, deeper, and important parallels of early doctrines. For example, the Christian, Jewish and Islamic texts agree regarding the pre-creation ‘war in heaven” and the details regarding WHY the angel Lucifer rebelled against God the Father and how he became an enemy of God and the rest of us. However, the later texts (especially after the Talmudic prohibition of inquiry into pre-creation themes) do not contain nearly so much regarding these early traditions and beliefs. The loss of such traditions left later Judeo-Christians with large gaps in knowledge that would have explained much and made Christianity much more logical and rational and intuitive than it is after such doctrines were lost.

    The underlying theme of loss of early doctrines is reflected in the parable of the empty jar (found in Thomas) ; “Jesus said, “The kingdom of the [father] is like a certain woman who was carrying a [jar] full of meal. While she was walking [on the] road, still some distance from home, the handle of the jar broke and the meal emptied out behind her [on] the road. She did not realize it; she had noticed no accident. When she reached her house, she set the jar down and found it empty.

    This logia is one of many sad descriptions of the failed attempt to pass on the doctrines and traditions of the early Christianities to later generations. Thus, when one looks inside of modern Christian theories and model, in it’s various iterations and various Christian theories, one finds that much of the doctrinal substance that gave the early Church it’s value, is no longer to be found in many of these theories

    These texts and many others give us insight into the early days of the Christian movement, their beliefs and doctrines and their specific challenges, etc. They are wonderful and, as they are coordinated with other texts, form a wonderful historical description of early Christianity and it’s evolution over time and geographical space.


    I hope you find them as fascinating and as insightful as other historians of the period do. I apologize for the bits of disjointed points, but I am writing between appointments and simply don't have time today to put thoughts down in this post as connected as they could be. Be healthy and safe.

    Good journey rrobs

    Clear
    τωτωεισιω
     
    #227 Clear, Mar 19, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2020
  8. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    I agree with @rrobs assessment on @Hawkins reply to the Opening Post.

    Hawkins theorized that "The purpose of the verse only means that God the Father knows but not God the Son at the moment when He's a man. The Holy Spirit is not mentioned here as it involves the introduction of the Trinity concept, this complicates the situation and will destroy the simplicity of what to be said." (post #224)

    This explanatory theory is itself more complicated than simply assuming God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit are separate individuals and that therefore, Jesus did not know what God, his Father knew.

    Clear
    τωτωφιακω
     
    #228 Clear, Mar 20, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2020
  9. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    While it is true, as you said, that people may be aware of future events, Matthew 24:36 is nonetheless clear that only the Father knew

    "But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."
    I'm pretty sure there are no verses that say the reason the spirit doesn't reveal it is because it knows the date but God does not want it to be revealed.

    Of course there is no mention of a God the Son or a God the Holy Ghost in the actual scriptures, but even if there was, Matthew is clear in saying that only God the Father (which title is in the scriptures) knows the time. I think it best not to interject anything into the scriptures that are not there.

    Many assumptions we hold are based on tradition and not truth. God's word is the truth, not the edicts of the Council of Necea. The Nicean doctrine is based on a mixture of the scriptures and Greek philosophy and Egyptian mysticism. Even a cursory study of church history will show that to be the case. Virtually all the early so-called church fathers were in love with Plato and his heretical ideas. Plato is the source of the idea that people's souls are eternal and go to heaven or hell immediately after death. One only need to read Genesis to see God said people will die whereas the devil said they will not die. Seems many sincere Christians vote with the devil on that one. Why bring that up? Because the lie of an immortal soul is necessary if one is to believe that Jesus existed before he was actually born. That lie is necessary to "prove" that Jesus is God. All the while we ignore the many clear verses that say Jesus was a man just like all other men. Of course he was singular in that he obeyed God, even to a horrible death on the cross so he could redeem us from the curse the first Adam brought upon all men. Jesus is called the second Adam. There is a good reason for that. Unlike all other men, both Adam and Jesus were born free from sin. God created Adam and He also created a seed in Mary's womb which resulted in Jesus. Those are the only two men God ever created, and both were created as perfect beings. Part of that perfection was free will. Adam used his free will to go one way and Jesus used his to go another. Like all men, Jesus was perfectly capable of committing sin. He was tempted in all point just like us (do you have an sense of being God when tempted? Of course not. Jesus, tempted like us, didn't either) but he used his free will to always follow his Father's will.
     
  10. cataway

    cataway Well-Known Member

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    Jesus did exist long before he became human
     
  11. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    Yes, so long as we accepts Plato's immortal soul over the scriptures that say life begins and ends with breath, i.e. soul life (Gen 2:7, Psalm 146:4). Personally, I accept that Jesus did not exist until he was born, just like the rest of us.

    Deut 18:15,

    The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
    Jesus was like Moses in that both had a beginning. Neither existed before they were born. It takes a complete abandonment of the meaning of words to suggest someone existed before their birth.

    However, there is always God's foreknowledge to consider. Jesus did exist in God's mind from the beginning, but apparently so did we.

    Eph 1:4,

    According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    I sure wasn't literally there to witness the creation of the universe. If Jesus is truly a sheep from the flock (humans) he also had a beginning. Before his birth he did not exist in some ghost like disembodied soul. That is a lie from the pit of hell and should be rejected by all who love the truth.
     
  12. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    Some people have argued the story of Jesus was a recycled mythology based on Moses. The typological comparisons are uncanny:

    https://byustudies.byu.edu/system/files/pdfs/charts/nt/8-8.pdf

    8-8 Moses as a Similitude of Christ | BYU Studies
     
  13. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    Good observation and I think there is a very good reason for it. I believe the OT scriptures were written largely so that Jesus would learn who he was and what he must do to accomplish his mission of our redemption.

    Assuming the scriptures are true, that Jesus was like the rest of as, it is axiomatic that the day he was born he knew absolutely nada, zip, zero, about things. He, like us, his brethren, came into this world with a blank slate.

    Of course, as were all good Jews of that day, he was schooled in the Hebrew scriptures. By diligently studying them, he slowly but surely realized they were talking about him. One day he realized the he was the seed God promised in Genesis 3:15. Some other day he was reading the scriptures and saw the parallels between his life and that of Moses. Reading other OT scriptures, he became aware of man's need for redemption. One day, as he read Exodus, he realized that he was the Passover Lamb. While reading Leviticus he came to understand that he was the real feast days celebrated by Israel as well as the one true sacrifice that would be effectual in redeeming mankind from sin and death. Some other day, he realized that he was the true high priest that alone could enter the innermost chamber of the temple to make atonement for the sins of the people.

    But it wasn't all so glamorous. Imagine how he felt the day he read Isaiah and realized that he would have to be beaten up more than any other man that ever lived. From Exodus, he came to understand that he would have to shed every last bit of his blood in order to atone for the sin and death Adam caused. Not a pleasant thought!

    All in all, I find it most fascinating to read the OT from Jesus' perspective and imagine what went through his mind as he came to realize who he really was. It certainly livens up the narrative, to say the least.
     
  14. cataway

    cataway Well-Known Member

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    to many scriptures point out that he ,the Word/Jesus, has been for long , long time.
    Plato has nothing to do with scripture . i am surprised you even dare say his name
     
  15. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    Plato has everything to do with scripture, at least as most Christians read the scriptures. Compare the doctrine of the 3rd and 4th century orthodoxy with the actual scriptures. There is a lot of difference and that difference is easily traced to Platonic ideas. All the early so-called "Church Fathers" were enamored with him and readily blended his ideas with their slowly emerging devilish doctrine. This is not a secret. Both history and the scriptures reveal the truth. Not that we need history to understand God's will, but it happens to agree in this case. The scriptures themselves are always the deciding factor.

    2Tim 1:15,

    This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
    Before Paul died he said the doctrine he taught was gone. Whet else could, "all they which are in Asia be turned away from me" mean? The Jews had no concept of an eternal soul. It was the Jews who formed the early church and they did not change their thinking about Jesus. It was a few decades later that the Greeks began to convert to Christianity. But they brought with them all their Plato influenced ideas. Maybe a hard pill to swallow, but that's the ugliness of church history in 4 or 5 short sentences. The orthodox church has yet to return to the doctrine God revealed to Paul to be used as our rule of faith and practice. Paul's words have fallen prey to tradition to a large degree.

    But I don't despair. I'm believing God for a revival, for the time when Christians will read the scriptures and let those scriptures speak for themselves, without interjecting preconceived ideas based on a few verses all the while ignoring the many clear verses on the same subject.

    Jesus did not live until he took his first breath. It is at that moment that he, like all men, became a living soul. Only by accepting the Platonic idea of the eternal soul can we say Jesus lived before he actually lived. So it's either Plato or Paul who dictates Christian doctrine. I place my bet on Paul.
     
  16. cataway

    cataway Well-Known Member

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    where is Jesus now
     
  17. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    POST ONE OF TWO

    Hi @Gaby Johnson and @cataway and @rrobs


    1) REGARDING WHETHER THE HOLY SPIRIT KNEW THE ANSWER THE O.P. ASKED

    Gaby said :” I always assumed the spirit does know. Many people with the spirit are aware of future events. Revelations explains the entire rapture but does not reveal the date. GOD does not want the date revealed, so the spirit is not allowed to reveal it. The spirit could reveal the date if God allowed it.” (post #229)

    Gaby, You could be correct on this point. I don't have enough data to say one way or another. In the later Christian movements that adopted the theory that “God the Father” IS the same as “the Spirit of God”, or those movements theorizing that God, Jesus and the Spirit are the same individual, then some version of your assumption makes sense.

    In the earliest Christian movements that believed God the Father, his Son Jesus and the Holy Spirit are different individuals, the question as to why the spirit, OR the Son did not know what the Father knew doesn’t come up at all. Thus, you do not see this question in the earliest sacred literature questions like this come up in the later eras.




    2) REGARDING PRE-CREATION EXISTENCE IN EARLY JUDEO-CHRISTIAN (AND ISLAMIC) LITERATURE

    I have to disagree a bit with rrobs.


    THE EARLY JUDEO-CHRISTIAN BELIEF IN PRE-CREATION EXISTENCE OF SPIRITS

    While the Early Judeo-Christian, and even Islamic literature discuss events that happened before creation in very detailed form, one cannot simply say "they got this theology from Plato" since Platos form of pre-existence was not so nearly developed as nor tied to the specific and well developed Hebrew and Christian and Islamic traditions.

    For example, the earliest Judeo-Christian belief that Jesus existed “in the beginning” before creation with God as “the Word” who “was in the beginning with God“ (John 1:1) and worked in concert with God his Father did not seem to believe this based on Plato, but rather upon their understanding of their own religious traditions and their own interpretations of their own texts and prior Judeo-Christian traditions.

    When Jesus claims that he “I saw Satan, fall like lightning from heaven” (Luke 10:18) , in reference to the “war in heaven” when Lucifer became an enemy to God, descriptions of the pre-existent Word of God and the Choosing of the Messiah, the war in heaven, the fall of satan, etc. are all Judeo-Christian doctrines that were developed far beyond the base idea that Plato described. The Judeo-Christian (and Islamic) version of these events in their literature were very detailed and applied to individuals in ways that Plato never applied them.

    When the apostles asked Jesus “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" (John 9:2), their assumption that the man was able to sin before his birth, and thus be punished for this sin by being born blind, Jesus did not correct this common assumption but simply told them that the man was not born blind due to sin of parent or self.


    WHERE DID PLATO GET THE DOCTRINE?

    This Jewish doctrine existed in a very mature form even at 300 b.c. (before Plato was supposed to have died). While Plato may have made his form of this doctrine more popular due to his influence, the Jews had the doctrine and it’s formulation in a much more mature and detailed form firmly inside their own theology. (Remember, Jewish Enoch was written approx 300 b.c. but the traditions in the text are far older that this).

    If Platos’ beliefs paralleled the Judeo-Christians on this point, then good for Plato. However, if some ideas are claimed to have come from pagans, then the next question is ‘where did the pagans get the idea”. The problem is that thes ideas often extend back into the murkier regions of history and “pre-history” such as into the Egyptian texts that existed long before Plato. It is then theorized that the Egyptians got this theology from the Hebrews, (as did the Christians in later eras).


    For example: A common egyptian pyramid text (and there are thousands of such texts) typically reads "The pharaoh was conceived by his father when there was as yet no heaven, nor earth, nor people... nor were there any dead. And every individual existed when the plan of the ancient Lord of heaven was not yet formulated."


    This doctrinal theme continues into the later coffin texts without a doctrinal ripple : "I existed before I was born, when the gods did not exist, when as yet there was no bird trap, when the cattle were not yet lassoed. I was formerly; I was of yesterday, a great one among the great and noble ones."



    THE HEBREW FORMS OF SUCH DOCTRINES PARALLEL THE EGYPTIAN FORMS
    Whereas a coffin text might read: "Before I was born by hand or born of woman, he created me in the midst of his perfection, which caused to jubilate those who shared in the secrets.”
    the same doctrine that existed in Egyptian idiom and symbology existed in Hebrew idiom and in Hebrew symbology. For example, one can hardly avoid recognizing the similarities between pre-earth “sons of God shouting for joy” (Job 38) of Jewish literature and pre-earth sons of God who were “caused to jubilate ... who shared in the secrets” of Egyptian literature.

    The biblical claim in ecclesiates that the spirit shall return unto God who gave it (eccl 12:7) is common to many ancient religions.

    In such theology, God was not being rhetorical in telling Old Testament Jeremiah, Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee - 1:5). It is not merely allegorical knowledge God has of what Jeremiah would become, but what Jeremiah’s spirit was before Jeremiah was even born.

    For examples, In Secrets of Enoch (Slavonic), the Lord tell Enoch to: "Sit down and write the names of those who are not yet born and the places which are prepared for them forever; for all the spirits were prepared before the foundation of the earth."

    Enoch, the prophet, in turn, preaches this same doctrine to mankind by saying : "I swear unto you, my children, that before man was made in the womb of his mother, he was prepared; and how each has sojourned in this age that a man might be tested in the balance while he was here."



    GREAT EVENTS IN HEAVEN BEFORE CREATION IN JEWISH, CHRISTIAN AND ISLAMIC LITERATURE – THE FALL OF LUCIFER AS AN EXAMPLE

    Though the biblical Jesus relates that he beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven” (Lk 10:18) the sentence refers to a much larger and more detailed historical tradition.

    Biblical John the revelator mentions that “…there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” (Rev 12:7-9)

    Though the three-verse interlude relates to Satans enmity to God, it does not tell us much about why this war happened. The early Jewish, Christian and Islamic Literature describes this shared history and is one of the few things they agree on very closely.

    In the early literature, God has just finished with creation of the planets and is setting about to inhabit the earth with Adam and Eve. God choses a spirit who he will place in the body of Adam who will inaugurate Gods’ plan on earth.

    Because of what Adam is about to do, his role in inaugurating the great plan of Salvation of all men, God, the Father, places Adam on a throne and is honored by being given a crown of Glory and a scepter. Jesus relates My Father made every order [of angels] in the heavens to come and honor him, whether angel or archangel. And all the hosts of heaven worshiped God first of all, and then they [honored] Adam, saying, “Hail, thou image and likeness of God!” (Christian Discourse on Abbaton)

    Christian Cave of Treasures relates the same history scenes thusly: “There [Adam] was arrayed in the apparel of sovereignty, and there was the crown of glory set upon his head, there was he made king, and priest, and prophet, there did God make him to sit upon his honorable throne, and there did God give him dominion over all creatures and things.” “And the angels and the hosts of heaven heard the Voice of God saying unto him, "Adam, behold; I have made thee king, and priest, and prophet, and lord, and head, and governor of everything which hath been made and created; and they shall be in subjection unto thee) and they shall be thine, and I have given unto thee power over everything which I have created." And when the angels heard this speech they all bowed the knee and [honored] Him.”

    The same history is related in Islamic literature many times (at least 6 sura refer to this history). For example, Sura 15 in the Holy Quran relates the same exact scene as follows : “Behold! Thy Lord said to the angels: “I am about to create man, from sounding clay from mud molded into shape; “When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him.” So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together:” (vs 28-30)

    Though there are actually a series of important controversies, this controversy is common to Christian, Jewish and Islamic records as the (or one of the) controversy that “broke the camel’s back”. Lucifer puts his foot down and gives his reason for not honoring Adam. The reasons vary according the sourcing.

    post two of two follows
     
    #237 Clear, Mar 25, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2020
  18. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    post two of two



    LUCIFER (IBLIS in Quranic accounts) REFUSES TO HONOR ADAM

    In Christian Abbaton, Lucifer claims precedence in receiving honor over Adam since his (Lucifers) spirit had been created at an earlier time than the spirit which had been placed in Adam’s body. "It is rather he that should worship me for I arrived before he did!"( Discourse on Abbaton)

    Similarly, in Christian Cave of Treasures Lucifer feels as though the Quality of his creation was better than Adam’s. “And when the prince of the lower order of angels saw what great majesty had been given unto Adam, he was jealous of him from that day, and he did not wish to honlr him. And he said unto his hosts, "Ye shall not honor him, and ye shall not praise him with the angels. It is meet that ye should worship me, because I am fire and spirit; and not that I should worship a thing of dust, which hath been fashioned of fine dust." And the Rebel meditating these things (Fol. 5b, col. 2) would not render obedience to God, and of his own free will he asserted his independence and separated himself from God.”

    This account is in agreement with the six Quranic Accounts such as Sura 7: And We created you then fashioned you, then told the angels: Fall ye prostrate before Adam! And they fell prostrate, all save Iblis, who was not of those who make prostration. He said: What hindered thee that thou didst not fall prostrate when I bade thee ? (Iblis) said: I am better than him. Thou createdst me of fire while him Thou didst create of mud.” (Sura 7: vs 11-12)



    JEWISH LITERATURE REFERENCES THIS SAME PRE-CREATION TRADITION


    Though Isaiah 14:12 offers the rhetorical question (rhetorical because Isaiah knows the answer), How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning”, he doesn’t give us many details concerning Lucifer’s having “said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars....I will be like the most High.” However, there are multiple Judo-Christian texts that describe what that entailed in early Judao-Christian belief.

    For examples, texts from Jewish Haggadah parallel the Christian and Islamic text regarding this religious doctrine.

    When Adam’s spirit is placed into his body, Adam was not merely resplendent, being made in the image of the Father, but the creation of Adam represented the earthly inauguration of God’s plan having reached a greatly anticipated milestone. Jewish Haggadah relates : The extraordinary qualities with which Adam was blessed, physical and spiritual as well, aroused the envy of the angels...After Adam had been endowed with a soul [spirit], God invited all the angels to come and pay him reverence and homage. Satan, the greatest of the angels in heaven....refused to pay heed to the behest of God, saying, “You created us angels from the splendor of the Shekinah, and now you command us to cast ourselves down before the creature which you fashioned out of the dust of the ground!” God answered, “Yet this dust of the ground has more wisdom and understanding than you.”... (Jewish Haggadah -The Fall of Satan)


    At this insinuation that Adam was more qualified partly due to his intelligence, a “battle of wits” ensues where Adam, with a bit of help from God, proves he is wiser than Lucifer.

    And the story continues : “Satan was forced to acknowledge the superiority of the first man. Nevertheless he broke out in wild outcries that reached the heavens, and he refused to do homage unto Adam as he had been bidden. The host of angels led by him did likewise, in spite of the urgent representations of Michael, who was the first to prostrate himself before Adam in order to show a good example to the other angels. Michael addressed Satan: “Give adoration to the image of God! But if you do not, then the Lord God will break out in wrath against you.” Satan replied: “If he breaks out in wrath against me, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God, I will be like the Most High!” (the reference Isaiah was referring to) At once God flung Satan and his host out of Heaven, down to the earth, and from that moment dates the enmity between Satan and man.” (jewish Haggadah)


    This doctrine was not merely an early doctrine, but it existed in a wide geographical area in the early Christian movement as well. For example : An early Coptic Psalm reflects this same “war in heaven” controversy and indicates Lucifer did not intend to “go quietly”. Regarding Lucifer and those loyal to his cause it was said :Now as they were warring with each other, they made bold to attack the land of Light, considering themselves capable of conquering it. Yet they know not that what they thought will recoil upon their own heads. But there was a host of angels in the Land of Light which possessed the power to issue forth and overcome the enemy of the Father, whom it pleased that through the Word (a euphemism for his SON) that he would send, he should subdue the rebels who desired to raise themselves above what was more exalted than they. (Psalm # 223 (allberry 9-11)

    The Dead Sea Scrolls also refer to this same theme as well : “... they shall denounce Belial and all his guilty lot. Then they shall say in response: “Cursed is Belial because of his malevolent purposes, he is damned for his guilty dominion. And cursed are all the spirits of his lot for their wicked purpose, they are damned for their filthy unclean intentions. For they are the lot of darkness and their punishment is the eternal pit. Amen. Amen.” (Dead Sea Scroll - 4Q280, 4Q286-289)

    The Christian texts are often very clear as are the Jewish and the Islamic texts. For example,
    The devil in Bartholomew’s vision relates this same history. The text here begins with the controversy surrounding the creation of Adam’s body and the placing of Adam’s spirit into the body. ... God said to Michael : Bring me earth...And when Michael had brought them to him, he formed Adam in the east, and gave form to the shapeless earth, and stretched sinews and veins, and united everything into a harmonious whole. And he showed him reverence for his own sake because he was in his image. And Michael also [honored] him. And when I came from the ends of the world, Michael said to me: ‘[Honor] the image of God which he has made in his own likeness.’ But I [Lucifer] said: ‘I am fire of fire. I was the first angel to be formed, and shall I worship clay and matter?” And Michael said to me: ‘Worship, lest god be angry with you.’ I answered: ‘God will not be angry with me, but I will set up my throne over against his throne, and shall be as he is. ‘ then god was angry with me and cast me down,...”when I was thrown down, he asked the six hundred angels that stood under me whether they would worship Adam. They replied: ‘As we saw our leader do, we also will not worship him who is less than ourselves.’ After our fall upon the earth we lay for forty years in deep sleep, .... And I awoke .... and took counsel with him on how I could deceive the man on whose account I had been cast out of heaven....” (The Gospel of Bartholomew Ch IV)



    VERSIONS OF THIS DOCTRINE ARE PRESENT IN MANY OF THE EARLIEST RELIGIOUS TEXTS IN EXISTENCE AND THEY EXISTED LONG BEFORE PLATO HAD THEM AND, ALL VERSIONS CONTAIN PARALLELS TO THE HEBREW/CHRISTIAN/ISLAMIC VERSION.

    IF Plato acquired the idea from any of these ancient versions, then good for him. But to say the Hebrews obtained it from Plato is a stretch of historical principles since it existed long before Plato and the Hebrew version was much more of a mature, detailed and coordinated religious model than Platos model.







    3) ONE MORE POINT OF CORRECTION OF LOGIC

    Rrobs claims that an “immortal soul is necessary if one is to believe that Jesus existed before he was actually born”.


    This is incorrect. The soul does not necessarily need to be “immortal” (IF, by "immortal", one means the spirit "always" existed) to exist before birth, but a soul simply needs to exist before birth. Immortality (i.e. “forever” existing) is a different concept than simple pre-creation existence.


    I hope you all have wonderful journeys through life.

    Clear
    τωφιφισιω
     
    #238 Clear, Mar 25, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2020
  19. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    Mark 16:19,

    So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.​

    Heb 10:12,

    But this man (not God or god-man), after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;​

    Col 1:27,

    To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:​
     
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  20. cataway

    cataway Well-Known Member

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    i do appreciate that Jesus did have to be a man,thats a given how will you explain away theses verses ?
    John 3:13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man"
    EPHESIANS 4
    7 Now undeserved kindness was given to each one of us according to how the Christ measured out the free gift. 8 For it says: “When he ascended on high he carried away captives; he gave gifts in men.” 9 Now what does the expression “he ascended” mean but that he also descended into the lower regions, that is, the earth? 10 The very one who descended is also the one who ascended far above all the heavens, so that he might give fullness to all things"

    COLOSSI ANS 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist,

    PROVERBS 8:22 Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way,
    The earliest of his achievements of long ago.
    23 From ancient times I was installed,
    From the start, from times earlier than the earth.
    24 When there were no deep waters, I was brought forth,
    When there were no springs overflowing with water.
    25 Before the mountains were set in place,
    Before the hills, I was brought forth,
    26 When he had not yet made the earth and its fields
    Or the first clods of earth’s soil.
    27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there;
    When he marked out the horizon on the surface of the waters,
    28 When he established the clouds above,
    When he founded the fountains of the deep,
    29 When he set a decree for the sea
    That its waters should not pass beyond his order,
    When he established the foundations of the earth,
    30 Then I was beside him as a master worker.
    I was the one he was especially fond of day by day;
    I rejoiced before him all the time;

     
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