Why Didn't God Leave Huge Quantities of Secular Evidence For Jesus?

[Skywalker]

So you do not believe the Adam and Eve myth since that was not what it was about.

Even with your cleaned up version it paints God as unjust.

God gave Adam and Eve a choice to choose between good and evil and they chose to do wrong. How is that unjust?

 

[Skywalker]

That's what they say. Show me some proof.

When Jesus died the sky turned dark. There is historical evidence that backs this up. Roman Historian Thallus Mentions Darkness During Jesus’ Crucifixion | Reasons for Jesus

By Erik Manning| Skeptics tell us that one of the reasons we can’t trust the Gospels is because they make so many historical gaffes. In particular, the evangelists tell us of far-out tales that aren’t corroborated by other contemporary historians. One of those stories is the darkness that happened during Jesus’ crucifixion, according to Matthew, Mark, and Luke.

Here’s Mark’s version:

“And when the sixth hour had come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.” Mark 15:33, cf. Matthew 27:45, Luke 23:44

We know from history that historians like Pliny and Seneca have carefully described much less exciting events in the same kind of remote regions. But they failed to note an eclipse occurring in Judea. What’s up with that? Pliny the Elder wrote a whole book on natural history. How could he have missed this?

ARGUMENTS FROM SILENCE ARE NOTORIOUSLY WEAK
The first thing we need to note here is that this is an argument from silence. And arguing from silence is almost always a poor way to make your point.

In 79 AD, Herculaneum and Pompeii were destroyed by the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius. We learn about it from Pliny’s nephew, Pliny the Younger, and it wasn’t in any of his histories but in a letter to Tacitus. The eruption killed at least 16,000 and up to 60,000 people. No one draws from the silence of other historians that the event didn’t happen. We have plenty of archaeological evidence that it did.

 

[Skywalker]

Provide some evidence other than what is there in your books and I will join you. God and soul are human imagination.

It's absurd to say that a universe that has such an order and purpose where everything works for a reason, just exists. Evidence for God Leads Former Atheist Marilyn Adamson to Christianity | Reasons for Jesus

The evidence that changed her mind
The debates she had with her friend continued and eventually her friend presented her with books that claimed to have evidence for God, Jesus and the Bible. As she considered several of these works it occurred to her that belief in God might not simply be the product of wishful thinking as she previously held,

“I SAW SOME EVIDENCE FOR GOD THAT WAS SOLIDLY LOGICAL.”

Adamson particularly favoured the argument from teleology which contends that the best explanation of the design in the universe is that it was created by a designer, “The parts particularly convincing to me were the chemical properties of water and the earth’s position to the sun. It was all too perfectly designed, too perfectly put together.

MY FAITH IN “NOTHING BEHIND IT ALL” SEEMED WEAKER THAN THE POSSIBILITY OF GOD. I HAD FEWER REASONS TO BE CERTAIN OF NOTHING, AND MORE REASONS TO CONCLUDE THAT GOD MIGHT BE THERE.”

However, in the meantime she continued studying the philosophies presented by the thinkers that interested her. Yet, she explains, the evidence that she had just recently examined that pointed towards God began to “fully challenge” her “current philosophy on life. What I had been putting my faith in proved to be completely insufficient… But the concept of God was something I couldn’t get off my mind… was he there? does he exist? maybe there’s a God…”

It was the first time she would ever go home and pray, “I was going to either ask God to come into my life, or I was going to end the subject forever and never allow myself to consider the possibility of God again. I was tired of dealing with this decision. I was tired of thinking about it.” Having spent several hours reviewing all she had read and observed she prayed and felt her belief in God increasing,

“I CONCLUDED THAT THE EVIDENCE FOR GOD WAS SO STRONG THAT IT MADE MORE SENSE TO BELIEVE IN GOD THAN TO BELIEVE HE WASN’T THERE.”

 

[Subduction Zone]

God gave Adam and Eve a choice to choose between good and evil and they chose to do wrong. How is that unjust?

So you do believe that God screwed up.

 

[Subduction Zone]

When Jesus died the sky turned dark. There is historical evidence that backs this up. Roman Historian Thallus Mentions Darkness During Jesus’ Crucifixion | Reasons for Jesus

Your sources lied to you. Did you even read it?

 

[Skywalker]

So you do believe that God screwed up.

If a parent gives their kid a car, and the kid does something reckless, is that the fault of the parent? No, the kid is responsible for their own actions.

 

[Subduction Zone]

If a parent gives their kid a car, and the kid does something reckless, is that the fault of the parent? No, the kid is responsible for their own actions.

Bad analogy. If parents give kids a car without any training at all and the kids do something reckless who is to blame?

 

[Aupmanyav]

It's absurd to say that a universe that has such an order and purpose where everything works for a reason, just exists.

Don't give links to articles by Christian evangelists. I do not read that kind of BS (and they do not make your assertions any stronger).

Order, Aha! Earthquakes, volcanoes, typhoons, tornadoes, forest fires, tsunamies, droughts, floods, wars, dictators, and pandemics. Sure, your God has created excellent order.

"The evidence that changed her mind."
That some Christian was able to influence an ignorant woman, what has that got to do with me? I go by my own views.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

When Jesus died the sky turned dark. There is historical evidence that backs this up. Roman Historian Thallus Mentions Darkness During Jesus’ Crucifixion | Reasons for Jesus

Off a Christian website. WHY did I know that before I even clicked on the link? Nobody mentions a supernatural darkness during Passover in 30 CE. Come on.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

That doesn't change that if a lawyer offered to take the place of a defendant, they could only help them if the defendant accepted the lawyer taking their place.

I have no idea what that means.

 

[whosetosay...]

Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader.

What a brave statement to make when your argument is crumbling all around you. Evidence that he did and Moses is that there are millions of Jews all over the world today. Have you counted the grains of sand on the seashores? The fact is there is more evidence to say it did, than it didn't. You wanting it not to be true will never make it so.

Such startling propositions --[are] the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years."

New Torah For Modern Minds (Published 2002)

You fail to grasp that archaeologist are humans taught by man, The digging of any modern period where there are still living people going on with their lives would make it impossible to actually find anything which disproved Genesis or any book of the bible. Some archaeologist have found far more than they thought they would. No startling propositions. Logically there is nothing in archaeology which would disprove the bible/Torah. The people who carried the word of man and still do today originally witnessed it. There is too much actual evidence which shows the Torah to be true. I am sorry that you only have what you believe is a lack of evidence on the part of archaeologists. Dead sea scrolls and many more findings by " archaeologist" show that not all believe as you do. The Torah like so many warn about changing the words written. Why do you believe that is? If archaeologist could prove the Torah did not happen then there would be no Jews or Christians. They are just digging themselves into holes.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

What a pathetic argument. lolol Have I counted the grains of sand?????

You actually think think there are more Jews than grains of sand??? No wonder....no wonder....no wonder...

 

[Skywalker]

I have no idea what that means.

If someone doesn't accept God's free gift, there's not much God can do for them. It's like if a lawyer offered to take the place of a defendant who committed a crime, but they defendant didn't accept the lawyer taking their place, the lawyer couldn't help them.

 

[Subduction Zone]

If someone doesn't accept God's free gift, there's not much God can do for them. It's like if a lawyer offered to take the place of a defendant who committed a crime, but they defendant didn't accept the lawyer taking their place, the lawyer couldn't help them.

It is rather humorous to hear you claim that God is both just and unjust. I do wish that you would make up your mind.

Perhaps you do not understand the concept of justice. Not understanding what one is talking about enables apologists to tell falsehoods without actually lying.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

If someone doesn't accept God's free gift, there's not much God can do for them. It's like if a lawyer offered to take the place of a defendant who committed a crime, but they defendant didn't accept the lawyer taking their place, the lawyer couldn't help them.

How is God's "gift" free? You have to become his servant, worship and praise him continuously, accept Jesus and submit to his authority. Doesn't sound too free to me. Sounds like a lot of baggage.

 

[Skywalker]

Off a Christian website. WHY did I know that before I even clicked on the link? Nobody mentions a supernatural darkness during Passover in 30 CE. Come on.

Pliny and Seneca are historical, secular, sources. They had nothing to gain by talking about a supernatural darkness in 30 CE. Historians in the time of Jesus would have gotten in trouble if they wrote the wrong information. Roman Historian Thallus Mentions Darkness During Jesus’ Crucifixion | Reasons for Jesus

WHY WOULD PLINY OR SENECA REPORT THE ECLIPSE?
Neither Pliny nor Seneca lived in Judea or near Judea during the time of Jesus. We’re not even sure that the darkness was due to a solar eclipse, it could have been some other natural or supernatural occurrence. Furthermore, while Pliny does write in great detail about other natural events, he doesn’t go into detail about eclipses. There’s a one-sentence ‘chapter’ on the topic in Natural History 2.30. Here it is:

“Unusually long, portentious eclipses of the sun also take place, as when Caesar the dictator was slain; and in the war against Antony, the sun remained dim for nearly a year.”

This isn’t what you’d call a full history of strange periods of darkness throughout the Roman Empire! The critics are overstating their case here.

 

[Skywalker]

Don't give links to articles by Christian evangelists. I do not read that kind of BS (and they do not make your assertions any stronger).

Order, Aha! Earthquakes, volcanoes, typhoons, tornadoes, forest fires, tsunamies, droughts, floods, wars, dictators, and pandemics. Sure, your God has created excellent order.

"The evidence that changed her mind."
That some Christian was able to influence an ignorant woman, what has that got to do with me? I go by my own views.

Bad things exist in nature because after Adam sinned it had consequences that affected all of creation. Adam was given dominion over all creation, so when Adam sinned all of creation was affected. Genesis 3:17-18

And to Adam He said: “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat, cursed is the ground because of you; through toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field.

 

[Skywalker]

Bad analogy. If parents give kids a car without any training at all and the kids do something reckless who is to blame?

God gave Adam and Eve free will to choose between right and wrong.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Pliny and Seneca are historical, secular, sources. They had nothing to gain by talking about a supernatural darkness in 30 CE. Historians in the time of Jesus would have gotten in trouble if they wrote the wrong information. Roman Historian Thallus Mentions Darkness During Jesus’ Crucifixion | Reasons for Jesus

Here's what I found:

We know from history that historians like Pliny and Seneca have carefully described much less exciting events in the same kind of remote regions. But they failed to note an eclipse occurring in Judea. What’s up with that? Pliny the Elder wrote a whole book on natural history. How could he have missed this?

Is the Story of Darkness During Jesus' Crucifixion Pure Fiction? | Is Jesus Alive?

I think you're inventing stuff, sky.

 

[Skywalker]

Here's what I found:

We know from history that historians like Pliny and Seneca have carefully described much less exciting events in the same kind of remote regions. But they failed to note an eclipse occurring in Judea. What’s up with that? Pliny the Elder wrote a whole book on natural history. How could he have missed this?

Is the Story of Darkness During Jesus' Crucifixion Pure Fiction? | Is Jesus Alive?

I think you're inventing stuff, sky.

People dont say what the historians said because they have an agenda to reject the Bible. People wan't to be their own God, they don't want to accept the limitations that come with putting God first, but being one's own God just leads to enslavement to unhealthy attitudes. Roman Historian Thallus Mentions Darkness During Jesus’ Crucifixion | Reasons for Jesus

WHY WOULD PLINY OR SENECA REPORT THE ECLIPSE?
Neither Pliny nor Seneca lived in Judea or near Judea during the time of Jesus. We’re not even sure that the darkness was due to a solar eclipse, it could have been some other natural or supernatural occurrence. Furthermore, while Pliny does write in great detail about other natural events, he doesn’t go into detail about eclipses. There’s a one-sentence ‘chapter’ on the topic in Natural History 2.30. Here it is:

“Unusually long, portentious eclipses of the sun also take place, as when Caesar the dictator was slain; and in the war against Antony, the sun remained dim for nearly a year.”

This isn’t what you’d call a full history of strange periods of darkness throughout the Roman Empire! The critics are overstating their case here.