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Why did the Jews reject their Messiah when he DID come?

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Jesus said He was the Messiah to the woman and what more is there to believe?
I can't believe Jesus would lie.

Why not? Because He said He was the Messiah, and Messiahs do not lie, in general?

Look how easy it is: I am the Messiah, too.

Anyway, all this are just nice stories written in a book. And that is the only evidence they have. To be nice stories written in a book.

Ciao

- viole
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
The only convoluted mess is what you previously presented in your arguments against the resurrection.
The point I'm ultimately making to you is that it doesn't matter if Jesus were raised from the dead. This has no bearing on whether he is the messiah.
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
I just want to add to what @rosends already said.

Not only is there no basis in Jewish Scriptures for a "Gentile Messiah" who's separate from the Jewish one, Christians don't claim that their messiah is different than ours and many of their prophecies are based on Jewish Scriptures that were altered to fit their ideal. So nobody is making the claim that you are.

Also, there are plenty of Priests today - although the Messiah is not a descendant of the Priestly class, so this is not an issue.
Red Heifers are not a separate species of cows, they're regular cows with some sort of genetic mutation that makes them brownish red and they're born all the time. They're also not used to consecrate the land, but to remove impurity from contact with a dead person from a live person.
Non-Jews currently occupy the Temple Mount, but presumably after the advent of the Messiah, they'll be more agreeable to putting up a Temple.
This sort of thinking is exactly what I mean when I say people take Jesus, accept he wasn't the Jewish messiah, and then try to make something out of him anyway that has nothing to do with anything. It's completely bizarre.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
If it were only two who wrote about it you might have a case.
If there were any credible sources who wrote it, you might have a case.

But you might be right and the other authors relied only on Mark and themselves, rather than Mark and Q.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Due diligence would show that the content of the website does not indicate that the messiah has to be raised from the dead according to "OT" texts. So the "your opinion" you are responding to was
-->"This has no bearing on whether he is the messiah."

and your response including the statement that your site "shows otherwise" lacks that proof. Therefore your claim seems flawed.

Not only are the references to raising from the dead from gospel texts, but none shows that being raised from the dead is tied by definition to the concept of messiah.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Due diligence:
Zech 12 is speaking about the nations waging war on the House of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem. G-d destroys all those nations. This has not happened.
Psalm 16 is David praising G-d. No one else is mentioned.
Psa. 22 is about David's own travails.
Jonah makes no mention of a prophecy about someone else who would do something for three days and three nights.
Isa. 53 is a prophecy about the national leaders perception in retrospect of their relationship with the Jewish people.
Job makes no mention of a resurrection of Jesus.
Passover makes no indication that it's meant to portend something else
Psa. 40:7 is repeating what other prophets have said - that G-d prefers we not sin, rather than sin and bring a sacrifice.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Jesus said He was the Messiah to the woman and what more is there to believe?
I can't believe Jesus would lie.


Well clearly there are plenty of Jews who think he WOULD lie. IF he's a FALSE Messiah, of COURSE he'd going to CLAIM to be the real Messiah. There's some guy who lives under a bridge near my house and HE claims to be the real Messiah... why would HE lie?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
What content? That Zechariah is speaking of a war which hasn't happened?
The bible is often not written in linear style. These verses clearly speak of the
Messiah.
An interesting war which hasn't happened yet is the one mentioned in Ezekiel
38 or 39. This battle is in the future, and reads like a nuclear one. All the parties
are mentioned with the exception of one - the ally of Israel. This ally wasn't like
Ethiopia or Libya etc.. It just refers to it as the nation of the "islands" or the
"coast lands" Sounds like America to me - particularly in "sending fire" upon
"Magog" from the north, yet describing Magog was being to the "uttermost
north." That could be across the north pole - something absurd to readers of
Old Testament times.

None of this remotely relates to my post. The Tanakh and Torah clearly speak of a Messiah, but very different from the Jewish perspective.

From: https://www.google.com/search?ei=WhNkXZaJBojH_QatzZSoCQ&q=How+many+years+is+a+generation+definition&oq=How+many+years+is+a+generation+definition&gs_l=psy/

Generation - A generation is "all of the people born and living at about the same time, regarded collectively." It can also be described as, "the average period, generally considered to be about thirty years, during which children are born and grow up, become adults, and begin to have children of their own".
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Thankfully since my opinion is an archangel in Judaism (Sandalphon), sent from Heaven with the new name of Christ (Sananda) before Judgement Day; then it was already prophesied they'd stand against the things of God, and soon start WW3.

In my opinion.
:innocent:

Good thing you post this as your opinion, because from the Jewish perspective this is only personal specualtion on your part. Concerning the prophesies for WW3 I believe it is wild speculation.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Well clearly there are plenty of Jews who think he WOULD lie. IF he's a FALSE Messiah, of COURSE he'd going to CLAIM to be the real Messiah. There's some guy who lives under a bridge near my house and HE claims to be the real Messiah... why would HE lie?

It is not a matter of lying, because those that make the claim sincerely believe their claim is true, but others including by far most Jews do not believe the claim of other Abrahamic religions are true.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Zechariah 9
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem! See, your King
comes to you, righteous and victorious, gentle and riding on
a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim and the horse from Jerusalem, and the bow of war will be
broken. Then He will proclaim peace to the nations; His dominion will extend from sea to sea, and

from the Euphrates to the ends of the earth.…

Zech 12
On that day the LORD will defend the residents of Jerusalem, so that the weakest among them will be like
David, and the house of David will be like God, like the Angel of the LORD going before them. So on that day
I will set out to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of
supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him,
as one mourns for an only son
, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a
firstborn.


Some Jews think the notion of a Messiah coming back from the dead to fulfill prophecy not done while
he lived is a bit lame. But Zechariah, for one, shows this Messiah King is also the one who previously
came and suffered. The scripture says that if we cannot accept the suffering Messiah (ie Isaiah 53)
then we will not reign with Him.
Your description of the fulfillment of prophesies is the standard Christian belief, but it remains subjective, and Jews have a distinctly different understanding of the same prophesies, based on excellent knowledge of Hebrew, and the traditions of Judaism.

I am not supporting the Jewish perspective necessarily, but like the different religions the claim my way is true and the rest false is far to common and unrealistic from the human perspective for any religion to have the only true interpretation of ancient scripture and prophecies
 

Howard Is

Lucky Mud
The Old Testament doesn't mention Jesus whatsoever, so it's not surprising considering that Christianity is basically hijacked theology that has nothing to do with Judaism.

And everything to do with the Roman Empire.

Which is kinda interesting from the point of view of its role in the American Empire.

Even the architecture of US govt buildings borrows from Rome.

A hijacked theology in the service of a gangster empire running an international protection racket.

My apologies to the very many good people of the US if that sounds harsh. I know you don’t want it that way. I’ve listened to enough American music, and read enough great American novels to appreciate the good spirit of your nation. I don’t care for Hollywood much though.

My point is that the theology is indeed bogus, and is essentially in service of the ruling classes both in its Roman and US instances.

The whole guilt tripping thing is an essential element of disempowering the people.

That is what Jesus represents to me.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Zech 12 is speaking about the nations waging war on the House of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem. G-d destroys all those nations. This has not happened.
~'Fake Jews' is a continuation of the Pharisee, Sadducee, and Levite sects that were cut off in Zechariah 11, and then became the Antichrist's teachings after in Zechariah 11:15-17.

The House of David is Yeshua's second coming, and Jerusalem are the Servant's of God, with the 'fake Jews' (Zionist) being against us.
Isa. 53 is a prophecy about the national leaders perception in retrospect of their relationship with the Jewish people.
Isaiah 52:13-14 is clearly a paraphrasing of Psalms 89:19-21 being specifically about David; where again the 'fake Jews' are imposing themselves in a place of the Messiah.
Psa. 22 is about David's own travails.
David was reincarnated as Yehoshua, that is the point in the name being a righteous Branch, and thus David is writing first person about the things that will happen to himself.
Psa. 40:7 is repeating what other prophets have said - that G-d prefers we not sin, rather than sin and bring a sacrifice.
Partially there on God never required sacrifice, and should include that those who are lead astray by it, will all be removed soon at Judgement Day, as their hands are full of blood.

Hebrews also purposely changed what is there in the Psalm to include: Psalms 40:7 "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:" :eek:

Where they're trying to imply Yeshua came as a sin offering (Isaiah 53:10), when he came to teach the knowledge of God, and catch out the hypocrites as Psalms 40 suggests.

The false texts the Christians have been given (John, Paul, Simon the stone) is like fertilizer around Judah (Fig tree - Luke 13:6-9); which gives those worthy the opportunity to educate the Gentiles as prophesied, yet many take their wealth, and not bother with teaching as God commanded (Isaiah 61:6).

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Concerning the prophesies for WW3 I believe it is wild speculation.
Zechariah 12:2-3 “Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of reeling to all the surrounding peoples, and it will also be on Judah in the siege against Jerusalem. (3) It will happen in that day, that I will make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all the peoples. All who burden themselves with it will be severely wounded, and all the nations of the earth will be gathered together against it.

Christians, Jews, Muslims all accept these prophecies, that Armageddon will happen with a big war between Muslims and Jews; then we have Baha'i not dealing with the texts, and just making up their own ideas as it sounds a nice alternative.

If we also read the letter from Albert Pike wrote to Giuseppe Mazzini in 1871, it isn't speculation to say these wars have been predicted, and orchestrated.
because from the Jewish perspective this is only personal specualtion on your part.
Like have you read the Quran?

It explains they've corrupted the texts, as they were put under the Curse of Moses, and because their leaders lied so much, the modern day 'Fake Jews' have very little clue that they're responsible for much of their own confusion.

So when you say to me, "they don't agree", of course they don't; it was prophesied by every prophet they'd be facing backwards to the things of God (Deuteronomy 31:24-29).

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
I just want to add to what @rosends already said.

Not only is there no basis in Jewish Scriptures for a "Gentile Messiah" who's separate from the Jewish one, Christians don't claim that their messiah is different than ours and many of their prophecies are based on Jewish Scriptures that were altered to fit their ideal. So nobody is making the claim that you are.

Also, there are plenty of Priests today - although the Messiah is not a descendant of the Priestly class, so this is not an issue.
Red Heifers are not a separate species of cows, they're regular cows with some sort of genetic mutation that makes them brownish red and they're born all the time. They're also not used to consecrate the land, but to remove impurity from contact with a dead person from a live person.
Non-Jews currently occupy the Temple Mount, but presumably after the advent of the Messiah, they'll be more agreeable to putting up a Temple.

Jesus fulfilled no less than 40 prophecies of the Messiah. For all intents and purposes, as much as he can be the Messiah without running into contradictory prophecy, he is the Messiah.

44 Prophecies of the Messiah Fulfilled in Jesus Christ

But not necessarily measuring up to their standards, because they didn't like what he said. Seeing the hardness of hearts of the Jewish leaders, he decided to prophecy against them. Several times in fact.

Matt 23:31-33 "Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?"

Matt 15:1-3 "Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, "Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread." He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?"

Matt 23:1-5 "Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do to be seen by men."

Mark 7:5-7 He answered and said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: 'This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'

Matt 23:25-26 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Matt 23:27-29 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

You can tell from Jesus's words against the Canaanite woman, about how he came for the Jews, and it is "not right to take the children's bread, and feed it to the dogs." Yet her response clearly changed his view on who was deserving of his ministry. After this, he preached on the Good Samaritan, and generally seemed more about saving the Christians than reforming the Jews. The sinners among the Jews were another story, but he largely stopped trying with the Pharisees, Saducees, and scribes.

“Healthy people don’t need a doctor—sick people do. I have come to call not those who think they are righteous, but those who know they are sinners.”

There is no prophecy of a Gentile Messiah, this is true. But the Messiah decided the Jews weren't ready yet. So, while among the early Christians, they were mostly circumcised Jews to start with, we have Peter's vision, and afterwards, non-Jews are being converted.

Acts 10 - Peter's Vision and Unclean Animals — Freedom Hill Community

Why, Peter asked, was he suddenly being called to disregard massive amounts of Jewish law about mixing with the unclean? Well, if God is unchanging (Malachi 3:6), this means that the Jews continued to be saved under the Law and because they were chosen people. But he was calling Peter and the other disciples not to be Jews. To provide salvation for the Gentiles. As you know, Christians are not Jews. They are not the Chosen People, they do not keep kosher, and they do not care about mixing cotton/poly fabrics. They care about their salvation. Before this point, Gentiles did not have a means of salvation. They weren't under the Jewish law, and essentially weren't born into it, so Yahweh had no means of reconciling them as his Creation. This Messiah was a Savior, just not for those who already have a mitzvah to follow. And you've decided that this one who came for them is no good. Why is it your business any longer?

Obscure Taoist parable
“There is a kind of bird similar to the phoenix, called Yuanchu. Have you heard of it? For its migration flight, the Yuanchu bird travels from the Southern Sea to the Northern Sea. When it is tired, it rests only on the firmiana tree. When it is hungry, it eats only tender bamboo shoots. When it is thirsty, it drinks only pure stream water.

One day, there was an owl who found the rotting carcass of a rat. It was about to feast on the carcass when it saw the Yuanchu bird flying overhead. Alarmed, the owl immediately took action to protect its meal. It held onto the dead rat and squawked with all its might, trying to scare away the intruder."

Despite only eating bamboo and drinking spring water, the owl was convinced it was somehow a threat to their dead rat.

And so, I ask you, when the Messiah comes, will you reject this one also? Or allow them to be your Messiah?
 

Spartan

Well-Known Member
Due diligence would show that the content of the website does not indicate that the messiah has to be raised from the dead according to "OT" texts. So the "your opinion" you are responding to was
-->"This has no bearing on whether he is the messiah."

and your response including the statement that your site "shows otherwise" lacks that proof. Therefore your claim seems flawed.

Not only are the references to raising from the dead from gospel texts, but none shows that being raised from the dead is tied by definition to the concept of messiah.

Nope, your denials do not offset what I presented.

I stick by what I posted.
 

Spartan

Well-Known Member
If there were any credible sources who wrote it, you might have a case.

But you might be right and the other authors relied only on Mark and themselves, rather than Mark and Q.

Nope.

Q is a fallacy. There's no manuscript evidence and no one from antiquity had ever heard of it.
 
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