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Featured Why did the Jews reject their Messiah when he DID come?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Jonathan Bailey, Aug 25, 2019.

  1. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    I get it. Thanks for pointing it out.
    I don't agree that Jesus had committed any sin that Jewish people considered him a criminal to be punished.
    Even then,why did Jews of the Jesus time demanded Jesus' crucifixion instead of the Jewish custom of stoning to death?

    Regards
     
  2. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

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    The disciples / Apostles will see the Second Coming from where they are in Heaven.

    As for your first claim in bold, that's not exactly what Jesus said. Jesus was speaking about the end times when he said, "this generation" (i.e. the generation in the end times). Author Hal Lindsay made that very point in his 70's book, "The Late Great Planet Earth."

    Also,

    Skeptic: "At Matthew 16:28, Jesus tells his disciples: “There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” The people who were standing there all died eventually, and they never saw Jesus return to establish a kingdom."

    Response: Mark 9:1 notes, "Until they have seen the kingdom of God come with power;"

    First, what is the Kingdom of God? Romans 14:17 answers that: "For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit."

    Furthermore, in Luke chapter 11:14, Jesus drove out a demon that had left a man mute. The mute was healed. Then, in Luke 11:20, Jesus said, “But if I drive out demons by the finger of God, THEN THE KINGDOM OF GOD HAS COME TO YOU.”

    The Kingdom of God is also Jesus being seen in a Kingdom appearance (more on that later).

    When did it come with power? In Acts 1:8: “But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

    So, the power would come by virtue of the Holy Spirit. When did that happen?

    It (the power) happened in Acts chapter two, verses 1-4: "When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them."

    After that, Act 5:12 notes the miracles and power of the disciples: "And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people."

    But when did some of the disciples see Jesus coming in his kingdom?

    "It is that Jesus’ Transfiguration occurs next in the synoptists’ accounts (Mt 17.1-8; Mk 9.2-8; Lk 9.28-36a). Jesus took Peter, James, and John “up a high mountain by themselves. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became dazzling white. Suddenly there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him” (Mt 17.1-3). From a literary perspective, it seems pretty obvious that all three synoptists intended for their readers to understand that Jesus referred to his upcoming Transfiguration when he said some disciples would see him coming in his kingdom before they die."

    Did Jesus’ Disciples See “the Son of Man Coming in his Kingdom”?
     
  3. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    You raise an excellent point re Jesus and the temple. Daniel said the Messiah would come to HIS
    temple. But assuming Jesus is the Messiah then why did He condemn that temple? Yes, He
    purged it. But He also said God does not dwell in temples made with hands. He foresaw the
    destruction of that temple.
    I say that Jesus had no real intention of cleansing the temple so that it would be a perfect before
    God. He overthrew the money changers in a symbolic act, reminding people of God's law. He
    knew the money changers would be back, within the day.

    But for the Jew - where is the daily sacrifice as expressed in the Torah? The Old Testament speaks
    of a time when there will be no daily sacrifice.
     
  4. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    Judaism has a different configuration for their 'ketuvim', in the tanack. As I don't practice judaism, I have no need to "explain that", as we learn later in the texts, the sacrifices are either abrogated supernaturally, or such. So, it isn't a question I would need to answer, in this context.
     
  5. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    actions are not opinions. you have made reference to actions, not opinions. According to the Christian story of the crucifixion, Pilate knew that Jesus was innocent yet had him crucified anyway. That would not have been just. It has nothing to do with an opinion. However, whether this actually is historical or not is anyone's guess.
     
  6. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    My perspective, regarding this, is in how the spiritual nature of the original Solomons Temple, is regarded, in christianity.


    Thusly an explanation by acts of the Apostles, either isn't clear, isn't in line with Jesus's perspective, or, means something else.
     
    #626 Desert Snake, Sep 11, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
  7. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Thank you for asking, rather than just making proclamations. I really appreciate it.
    The priests are Levites, but almost all Levites are not priests. You have to be a Levite that is also a descendant of Aaron to be a priest.

    The Law stipulates that we are to make animal sacrifices at the given place, which is the Temple in Jerusalem. Since there is no Temple in Jerusalem, I would be a law breaker if I were to make a animal sacrifice.

    Hosea 14:2 makes it clear that when there is no Temple, "the words of our lips (prayers) shall be as calves (sacrifices)," so we're good.

    I can think of maybe four other places in the Tanakh/OT (one in the Torah) where it shows that animal sacrifices are not necessary.


    Some day when the Temple is rebuilt, sacrifices will resume

    I am an observant Jew, meaning that I keep the 613 commandments (at least those which apply to me). That includes refraining from shell fish and pork.

    The penalties laid out for various sins are the maximum penalties. So for example, if the death penalty is listed, that is the maximum penalty. The court can, and practically always does give a more lenient sentience. It is said that a court that gives out a death sentence once in 70 years is a bloody court.

    Today Jews do not practice criminal law in our courts. We only litigate things like business and religious laws. We go to the law of the land for criminal matters because we are integrated into society.
     
  8. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    Again, not relevant to my beliefs, and presumably, not yours, either.

    Traditional christian, and other, [like mine, beliefs, do not make a distinction, concerning prophecy, in the Old Testament.
    In judaism, they usually do, thusly what we use for either prophecy or texts relating to God, they[judaism, may not use, in the same manner.


    Thusly, in my beliefs, the sacrifices are abrogated, and that would be the same, in traditional christianity.

    That , however, may not relate to how the original Temple, is perceived, though.
     
    #628 Desert Snake, Sep 11, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
  9. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    Acts of the Apostles, where Stephen is talking about the history of the jews, those verses need to be explained. No commentary I have read, has given a interpretation, that wasn't, in my opinion, vague.
    If you are saying that yashuah was teaching, what Stephen said, and by inference, the original Temple was bad, christianity needs to explain that, in more detail.
     
  10. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    Not sure what this Steven thing is about. And I don't know what a lot of "Christians"
    think of the temple, given that they, without permission, instruction or understanding,
    have built their own temples.
    The Apostolic Church respected the temple. But they understood it was not a
    part of personal, spiritual service - and there were no part for the Christian in that
    temple. The "new covenant" is a spiritual affair - the temple, the priesthood, the
    animal sacrifices etc were seen as symbols of what was completed in Christ.
     
  11. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Some of the Jews did.

    If they didn't want him crucified, he wouldn't have been crucified. The fact that he was crucified was their choice because they controlled the scene. Plus there's something else at play here.

    Beware of literalistic interpretations as they can often distort reality, as what we read in the scriptures are people's take on what happened, typically "filtered" through their their own subjectivity and biases on such matters. The gospels were written decades after Jesus was crucified, and by that time there were rather sharp divisions between the normative Jewish community and the new "Christian" community. Thus when we read the gospels we have to keep in mind that undoubtedly many in the Church community were upset that more Jews did not seek admission into it, thus the switch more towards Gentiles, especially the "God-Fearers". Therefore, that community was becoming more mixed and less "Jewish", with the latter increasingly being demonized, such as what we can pick up in the gospels, especially John's.

    One manifestation of that switch is assigning more guilt to the Jews, which then necessitated assigning less guilt to the Romans. However, later on, especially after Peter and Paul were executed in Rome, the hatred towards "Babylon the Great" [code for the Roman Empire] ramped-up again.

    Anyhow, that's my take on this, but there's certainly room for uncertainty. Take care.
     
  12. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Please read my post #631.
     
  13. susanblange

    susanblange Active Member

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    Everything that happened in the NT was done in an attempt to fulfill scripture. Prophecy is known after the fact, not before. The true Messiah has already fulfilled thousands of prophecies. Jesus fulfilled the ones about the modern day idol of Israel. I do not count verses. An entire Psalm, paragraph, or chapter Is a prophecy.
     
    #633 susanblange, Sep 11, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
  14. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    "Jesus wanted to be crucified because he thought it would fulfill scripture."

    That is a Pauline-Pagan-Christian afterthought. If Jesus would have wanted to be crucified to death then he would have not supplicated to G-d in the Garden:

    Matthew 26:39
    39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
    Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 26:39 - King James Version

    Regards
     
  15. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

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    What - the Apostles underwent severe prosecution and death for an allegory or a myth? Who does that?
     
  16. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Hosea 14:2
    The words of our lips (prayers) shall be rendered as calves (sacrifices).
     
  17. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    The apostles were convinced that Jesus rose. They were not the only followers of a religious sage in history that believed their teacher had risen from the dead. It happens. It doesn't mean that anyone has actually risen from the dead.
     
  18. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    More likely, a direct meaning. Jesus didn't practice circumcision, therefore that is a literal statement. Not all Israelites practiced circumcision, and the 'christian church', traditionally doesn't.

    The Covenant, [through Jesus, is even called the 'Covenant of the uncircumcision', which, although could be argued just means [gentiles didn't practice circumcision, for a more actual description, most likely means Jesus didn't practice circumcision.


    This could be why only one gospel mentions yeshua in correlation to the practice of circumcision, yet, also that same gospel has differences with the others in the early pages.
     
  19. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    Really? You mean, all those poor animals who died over the millennium?
    I don't this verse means a prayer does away with the daily sacrifice. It just
    stresses the importance of prayer.
     
  20. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    The above does not relate to what I had posted.
     
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