1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Why did the Jews reject their Messiah when he DID come?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Jonathan Bailey, Aug 25, 2019.

  1. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2018
    Messages:
    4,042
    Ratings:
    +534
    Religion:
    None
    My favorite prophecy concerned Judah, one of the sons of Jacob.
    In Egypt late Bronze Age, Jacob gave a blessing to Judah. This
    son was the one who offered himself for his brother.
    Jacob said, if I recall the words - the scepter shall not pass from
    Judah, nor a law giver between his feet, until Shiloh comes, and
    in Him shall be the obedience of the nations.

    This means
    there shall be a Jewish nation (ie scepter is monarchy)
    and he shall guard the Law.
    and this monarchy will remain of the line of Judah.
    UNTIL
    meaning there's an end to both nation and law
    Shiloh - a name for the Messiah, of the line of Judah.
    comes - he shall come
    and His shall be the obedience of the nations - meaning
    this Messiah will be a Gentile thing.

    My other favorite prophecy concerns the TWO MESSIAHS,
    Redeemer and King that are present in Zechariah. That the
    Jews will see their king reigning over the nations - the same
    One who's hands and feet they pierced, the one who had
    come to them lowly and riding upon a colt.
     
  2. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    13,292
    Ratings:
    +4,396
    Religion:
    Christian

    Daniel is talking about the new temple that Cyrus the Persian king had built. Daniel is not considered a prophet in Judaism.

    1. Cyrus Decree to Rebuild - letgodbetrue.com
      www.letgodbetrue.com/bible/prophecy/cyrus-decree-to...
      Third, the context of Daniel’s prayer in Daniel chapter 9 clearly points to the decree of Cyrus as the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem. The chapter begins with Daniel in the first year of Darius the Mede reading the book of Jeremiah and realizing that the 70 year desolation of Jerusalem was soon coming to an end.


     
  3. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    13,292
    Ratings:
    +4,396
    Religion:
    Christian
    The word Shiloh appears 33 times in the Old Testament and all but one usage refer to an area of Israel. The verse in which Shiloh is used as a Messianic prophecy is Genesis 49:10: “The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a Lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come. And the obedience of the peoples to him” (NKJV).

    This verse is part of Jacob’s blessing of his 12 sons in which he portrays the future history of each son and each of the 12 tribes of Israel.

    The blessing on Judah and his tribe contains several elements. For one thing, his descendants would be strong and receive the praise of the other tribes of Israel (v. 8-9). This was fulfilled in David, a strong and mighty warrior and king, and ultimately by the Messiah who came from the line of Judah. Verses 11 and 12 are somewhat obscure in that they contain poetic, hyperbolic language.

    Generally, this language describes prosperity so great that people will be able to tie a donkey to a choice vine and let it eat its fill because there is such abundance. This is likely a prophecy concerning the millennium. It will be a time of peace (Micah 4:2-4; Isaiah 32:17-18), joy (Isaiah 61:7, 10), comfort (Isaiah 40:1-2), and no poverty or sickness (Amos 9:13-15; Joel 2:28-29).

    In verse 10, we find the reference to Shiloh and His future coming. This obscure word is variously interpreted to mean “the sent” (John 17:3), “the seed” (Isaiah 11:1), the “peaceable or prosperous one” (Ephesians 2:14), that is, the Messiah (Isaiah 11:10; Romans 15:12).

    Prior to Shiloh’s coming, the tribe of Judah would continue to maintain power and strength, signified by the scepter—the symbol of authority and rule of law. This first began in David, who was of the tribe of Judah, and continued to the Babylonian captivity, when another sort of government took place, described in the next part of the verse. A ‘lawgiver’ can be any ruler who has jurisdiction over others, and from the Babylonian captivity through the time of Christ, Israel was under the rule of other lawgivers.

    When Shiloh—the Messiah—came, the scepter of rule over Israel departed from Judah and rested in the hand of the King of Kings, where it remains today, although many still reject Him. He is the Lawgiver at whose feet we now sit for teaching in truth and righteousness through His Word, the Bible.

    The “obedience of the peoples” was and still is offered to Him, replacing obedience to the law of Moses. From the beginning, there were great gatherings of people who heard Him preach and saw His miracles. Multitudes witnessed His death and His post-resurrection appearances. Multitudes more were converted to Christ, embraced His doctrines, professed His religion, and have lived in Him ever since. Here is the meaning of the “obedience of the peoples to him” (v. 10), which will continue until Shiloh comes again to rule and reign over all during the millennium.

    What is the meaning of the term ‘Shiloh’? Is it a Messianic prophecy? | GotQuestions.org

    At that time, every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of the Father (Philippians 2:9-11).
     
  4. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2018
    Messages:
    4,042
    Ratings:
    +534
    Religion:
    None
    Not sure of the point.
    And I am sure what the Jews mean by "prophet" - King David wasn't a "prophet" in the strict
    sense, but he wrote of the suffering Messiah dying upon the cross.
    And Jesus and John the Baptist were prophets in a very real sense, but they weren't considered
    prophets by the Jews.
    Who cares what "the Jews" think. They don't have a monopoly upon the bible, even their "own"
    bible. They rejected their Messiah, as the REAL PROPHETS predicted, and were carried away
    into slavery and exile as a result - for nearly 2,000 years.
     
  5. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    13,292
    Ratings:
    +4,396
    Religion:
    Christian
    Look it up. Daniel is not listed among the prophets.. The Book was written by a committee ... to include a fake history of Babylon up to the Macabbean wars.
     
  6. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2014
    Messages:
    5,584
    Ratings:
    +3,137
    Religion:
    Jewish
    how do you react when a Muslim says "Jesus was only a prophet and not the messiah -- what do Christians know and who cares what they think? They don't have a monopoly over their "own" bible."

    Yeah. That.
     
  7. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2019
    Messages:
    2,553
    Ratings:
    +289
    Religion:
    Christian
    Yeah, it does. Numerous people attested to Jesus' resurrection. The PREPONDERANCE of the EVIDENCE is in his favor.
     
  8. susanblange

    susanblange Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2019
    Messages:
    357
    Ratings:
    +87
    Religion:
    Jewish/New Age
    Genesis 49:10. "The scepter shall not depart from Judah...until Shiloh come..." Queen Elizabeth is sitting on the throne of David. The monarchy still exists. David has been reincarnated and he will be the governor of Israel in the messianic age. Ezekiel 37:24-25. The House of Israel is the USA, the UK, and the EU. Genesis 48:15-22. The Messiah will be anointed by the Jews as the King of the Universe. The Messiah is a Gentile because he is not ethnically Jewish. He is, however, Israeli. The Messiah is from the tribe of Joseph/Ephraim. Genesis 49:24-26. "...from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel". There are two Messiahs, the Lord and Elijah. Elijah is ethnically Jewish and they will both be anointed. Zechariah 4:14. In the NT, they are identified as "two witnesses".
     
  9. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2018
    Messages:
    4,042
    Ratings:
    +534
    Religion:
    None

    Disagree on all points (which is unusual for me)
    I wouldn't know where to start - perhaps by asking where you got this stuff from?
     
  10. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2018
    Messages:
    4,042
    Ratings:
    +534
    Religion:
    None
    It's a question I often ask people too.

    You have to test the claim.
    Mohamed called himself a "prophet" but his doctrine was not only contrary to Jesus'
    but his "fruit" (as Jesus called the personal outcomes of your life) was one of violence
    and conquest.
    As an aside. Many Jews believed in Jesus - these were the tens of thousands who
    followed and heard him, including a "great company" of priests. These people could
    not remain "Jews" after Jesus - so they became Gentiles.
     
  11. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2018
    Messages:
    4,042
    Ratings:
    +534
    Religion:
    None
    So now even the Babylonian captivity account is fake.
    Maccabee I and II are not included in the Jewish holy
    book because they were written after Babylon, when
    the book was sealed as the Jewish canon. That alone
    is proof of the dating of Daniel.
     
  12. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    13,292
    Ratings:
    +4,396
    Religion:
    Christian
    Oh Brother...…..
     
  13. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    13,292
    Ratings:
    +4,396
    Religion:
    Christian
    Daniel's account of the Babylonian exile is fake.

    The Book of Daniel was written in reaction to the persecution of the Jews by the Greek king Antiochus IV Epiphanes in 167-164 BCE. Its authors were the maskilim, the "wise", of whom Daniel is one: "Those among the people who are wise shall make many understand...", and its fundamental theme is God's control over history.
     
  14. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    13,292
    Ratings:
    +4,396
    Religion:
    Christian
    The Dating of the Book of Daniel. - westminster.edu
    www4.westminster.edu/staff/brennie/rel101/daniel.htm
    The most obvious conclusion would be that the Book of Daniel was written at the time of the profanation of the Temple by Antiochus IV, during the Maccabean revolt which that sacrilege provoked. That would explain why the author is not very precise about sixth century events, why he is so precise about the time of Antiochus, and why he was never counted among the prophets.
     
  15. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2014
    Messages:
    5,584
    Ratings:
    +3,137
    Religion:
    Jewish
    And the doctrine from the gospels is contrary to Judaism and Jesus' life was one of law breaking.
    Many Christians have become Muslim, believing in Mohammed. Does the change mean that they are right? Look up Sabbateanism. People, lots of them, make mistakes.
     
  16. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    13,292
    Ratings:
    +4,396
    Religion:
    Christian
    Muhammed was a messenger. His message was : Save yourselves. I cannot save you. Return to the God of Abraham.
     
  17. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    13,292
    Ratings:
    +4,396
    Religion:
    Christian
    Psalm 22 is about a person who is crying out to God to save him from the taunts and torments of his enemies, and (in the last ten verses) thanking God for rescuing him. Jewish interpretations of Psalm 22 identify the individual in the psalm with a royal figure, usually King David or Queen Esther.
     
  18. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2018
    Messages:
    4,042
    Ratings:
    +534
    Religion:
    None
    Do YOU think David or Esther would write that? Remember, David was dead for 600-800 years
    when the bible was SUPPOSED to have been written.
    The suffering doesn't match the account of either of these people.
     
  19. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2018
    Messages:
    4,042
    Ratings:
    +534
    Religion:
    None
    True. Many an evil person has said much the same.
     
  20. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2018
    Messages:
    4,042
    Ratings:
    +534
    Religion:
    None
    The claim that Jesus broke the law is both right and wrong.
    Jesus made many of the Commandments more severe, but he ended the Ordinances
    (rituals, rites which were symbolic for the time to come.) and the Judgments (such
    as inheritance, women's rights etc..) So Christians live under the moral code, but not
    Jewish dietary or criminal codes.) This is Jesus as "law breaker."
     
Loading...