Why did the Jews refused to be hellenized by Greeks

[Estro Felino]

And you don't think men enjoyed "easy access" either? And you think they could simply refuse to have sex if they weren't interested?
.

I don't know about that. But if a woman wants to be a prostitute, let her be a prostitute. It's her choice.

as for the scholars thing...well I really think that the opinion of a group of misogynistic scholars is worth zero.
Do they want to deny that empress Messalina used to be a prostitute in secret too?
Do they want to deny what historians wrote?

Strabo wrote:
The temple of Aphrodite was so rich that it employed more than a thousand hetairas,[14] whom both men and women had given to the goddess. Many people visited the town on account of them, and thus these hetairas contributed to the riches of the town: for the ship captains frivolously spent their money there, hence the saying: ‘The voyage to Corinth is not for every man’. (The story goes of a hetaira being reproached by a woman for not loving her job and not touching wool,[15] and answering her: ‘However you may behold me, yet in this short time I have already taken down three pieces’.[16])”

 

[Estro Felino]

But you're Catholic now. How many female Popes have there been? cardinals? bishops? priests?

In Judaism, many congregations do have female rabbis, so we're well ahead of you on the "Feminist Scale".

That's because almost all of Christianity is really sexist. If it depended on me, I would change things

 

[metis]

I have a problem with the OP as it just cites Jews and not most other groups, including even Greeks themselves as the Greek Orthodox Church is hardly a bastion of feminism. Instead I would have asked it in this way: "Why did most religions refuse to be hellenized in regards to feminism".

 

[Estro Felino]

I have a problem with the OP as it just cites Jews and not most other groups, including even Greeks themselves as the Greek Orthodox Church is hardly a bastion of feminism. Instead I would have asked it in this way: "Why did most religions refuse to be hellenized in regards to feminism".

I think that Hellenized Judaism gave birth to Christianity. That's why modern and contemporary Judaism is not Hellenized.
The prove of this process is that we Christians can acknowledge that a woman can bear God in her womb. And that God, even if in his human form, can be born from a uterus, like any man.
So the centrality of Mary is a reflection of this Hellenistic vision of woman, as a life-bearer. I quote what a Catholic bishop said about Mary. He said: "Mary (and all women) prove God's presence in history.
Because Ruach (the spirit) is a feminine word.

Another clarification: we say that Jesus is not only the Messiah. he's God too.

 

[xkatz]

I don't know about that. But if a woman wants to be a prostitute, let her be a prostitute. It's her choice.

Tell that to trafficked women.

as for the scholars thing...well I really think that the opinion of a group of misogynistic scholars is worth less than zero.
But I understand that female sex urges can scare people.

So people who don't agree with you are bigots? Fascinating.

Do they want to deny that empress Messalina used to be a prostitute in secret?
Do they want to deny what historians wrote?

Strabo:
The temple of Aphrodite was so rich that it employed more than a thousand hetairas,[14] whom both men and women had given to the goddess. Many people visited the town on account of them, and thus these hetairas contributed to the riches of the town: for the ship captains frivolously spent their money there, hence the saying: ‘The voyage to Corinth is not for every man’. (The story goes of a hetaira being reproached by a woman for not loving her job and not touching wool,[15] and answering her: ‘However you may behold me, yet in this short time I have already taken down three pieces’.[16])”

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/greece/hetairai/hetairai.html:

[H]etaira (hetaera) or companion, who usually was an accomplished courtesan and often more educated than respectable wives and daughters sequestered at home. In a society in which men tended to marry late, in which marriages usually were not for love, and in which the women of citizen families often were secluded, "to be least talked about by men," in the words of Pericles, "whether they are praising you or criticizing you," the role of the hetaira perhaps is inevitable.

or this tidbit here on the same page:

Neaera had been purchased as a slave and, while still a very young girl, worked as a prostitute in Corinth. So desirable was Neaera that, eventually, she was bought for thirty minas by two of her customers. They kept her for themselves until they were about to marry and then offered Neaera her freedom, which she purchased through the donations of other lovers

Yea, sounds like a really progressive and feminist society...

 

[Estro Felino]

Yea, sounds like a really progressive and feminist society...

actually it was. And it's really devastating to know that still today, if a woman is promiscuous, is immediately labeled as a whore. Even in my country.

so now we live in a very regressive and barbaric age, in relation with the Greek Era.

 

[xkatz]

so now we live in a very regressive and barbaric age, in relation with the Greek Era.

Yes, how barbaric that women can't legally be slaves so they can buy their freedom by having lots of sex (and not always at their own volition)

 

[Estro Felino]

Yes, how barbaric that women can't legally be slaves so they can buy their freedom by having lots of sex (and not always at their own volition)

well...yes. As slavery was really unjust. Obviously I was talking about free born women.

But all this useless discussion is because you couldn't admit one fact:
and that is, Hellenism was incompatible with Judaism. That's why Jews rebelled.
and that's how Hanukkah was created

 

[Flankerl]

I don't think that a virile priest like Caiaphas would obey Cleopatra.

Depends. Is she the head of state of the country who destroyed the Sanhedrin and then started an Egyptian controlled Sanhedrin?

Good talk we should do this more often.

But all this useless discussion is because you couldn't admit one fact:
and that is, Hellenism was incompatible with Judaism. That's why Jews rebelled.
and that's how Hanukkah was created

Over two thousand years after the Jewish Hammer struck down and still mad.


Haha

 

[Estro Felino]

Over two thousand years after the Jewish Hammer struck down and still mad.


Haha

I'm not mad. The world is beautiful because all the cultures are different.
But we have to be aware of these diversities, which are an enrichment, not a limit.

 

[xkatz]

well...yes. As slavery was really unjust. Obviously I was talking about free born women.

Most people were not either free people nor citizens in ancient Greco-Roman civilizations.

But all this useless discussion is because you couldn't admit one fact:
and that is, Hellenism was incompatible with Judaism. That's why Jews rebelled.
and that's how Hanukkah was created

Some of it's aspects are yes. Things that didn't contradict Jewish religion, praxis, and ethnos were for the most part embraced. The things that were incompatible largely weren't.

 

[jewscout]

Yes, but you Jews rejected the Hellenistic vision of woman. That is a woman that represents God on Earth. I don't think that the Jews would have accepted a queen like Cleopatra....who was sensuous and embodied the Hellenistic gynocentrism . I don't think that a virile priest like Caiaphas would obey Cleopatra.

Besides...I know what Jewish rabbis and priests think about women. I think that they would never have accepted to attend the plays performed in Greek theaters, all based upon the woman's centrality.

again you show how little you know of Judaism and Jews by making ridiculous statements without a shred of evidence, let alone respect

besides if you "already know" then why waste everyone's time just to promote your own bigoted agenda.

welcome to the ignore list

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

... without a shred of evidence, let alone respect

There's a word for that.

welcome to the ignore list

:clap

 

[metis]

I think that Hellenized Judaism gave birth to Christianity. That's why modern and contemporary Judaism is not Hellenized.
The prove of this process is that we Christians can acknowledge that a woman can bear God in her womb. And that God, even if in his human form, can be born from a uterus, like any man.
So the centrality of Mary is a reflection of this Hellenistic vision of woman, as a life-bearer. I quote what a Catholic bishop said about Mary. He said: "Mary (and all women) prove God's presence in history.
Because Ruach (the spirit) is a feminine word.

Another clarification: we say that Jesus is not only the Messiah. he's God too.

I have no doubt that there was a Hellenized influence on Christianity, but there undoubtedly was some on Judaism as well which seems to be reflected with some liberal Pharisee group(s).

Obviously, in Judaism we simply do not accept the idea that Jesus is God and that Mary is the "mother of God", and we certainly are not going to try and change what's written in Torah and Tanakh just to try and be more feminist. Plus, as I previously stated, Catholicism certainly is not committed to feminism or we'd see female Popes, cardinals, bishops, and priests, whereas in Judaism we do see some branches with female rabbis.

I wish my wife had a chance to talk with you face-to-face and have her give you what she has witnesses in comparing the two.

 

[Sunstone]

Judea was conquered by the Greeks in the IV century BC. But they didnt take advantage of that great opportunity to become more Hellenized.
so they rebelled against Antioch IV and they restored their "Jewish" Kingdom. (Maccabeus' revolt and creation of the Ashmoneous dynasty).
Egyptians were more cunning because they welcomed the Greeks and created the greatest Hellenistic kingdom ever

The Jews didn't become more Hellenized? Why, golly, I am so shocked that the Jews just couldn't get their act together. It seems every time you turn around those old silly Jews are right up there making just one mistake after another. It's uncanny how many things you can blame on them! Indeed, the other day, I hit my thumb with a hammer while trying to drive a nail, and right away, without even needing to think about it, I said, "Damn Jews!"

 

[Avi1001]

I have no doubt that there was a Hellenized influence on Christianity, but there undoubtedly was some on Judaism as well which seems to be reflected with some liberal Pharisee group(s).

Also, Maimonides views were clearly influenced by Aristotle. This is evidenced in Book Two of: "Guide for the Perplexed". The entire enlightened world were influenced by Socrates, Plato and Aristotle.

 

[metis]

Also, Maimonides views were clearly influenced by Aristotle. This is evidenced in Book Two of: "Guide for the Perplexed". The entire enlightened world were influenced by Socrates, Plato and Aristotle.

Thanks for adding this, Avi.

 

[Estro Felino]

I wish my wife had a chance to talk with you face-to-face and have her give you what she has witnesses in comparing the two.

That would be great. She can send me a private message anytime she wants. Even in Italian, that would be even better

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Why, golly, I am so shocked that the Jews just couldn't get their act together

It's just that when one spend all his time stoning women and killing Midianites it's really hard to focus on toga parties.

By the way, for the non-trolls among you (and there are many):

As A Driven Leaf is an exceptionally well written book that loses none of its relevance by virtue of being a piece of fiction.​

 

[metis]

That would be great. She can send me a private message anytime she wants. Even in Italian, that would be even better

My wife never gets on-line, plus any such a discussion would likely be lengthy. We both go to each other's services, and if I told her that I was leaving our synagogue, another Jew would be crucified.:yes:

At our synagogue, women often lead our services and have been president of our board of trustees, and this is not unusual. Even though our rabbi's a male, we have had female rabbis at times run our service.

BTW, if you honestly believe that Jewish women are mostly subservient to their husbands, you certainly do not even get close to understanding them.