Why did God send Messenger to convey His message instead of directly coming to speak?

[dybmh]

Also, would He the sincere be distinguished from the insincere if was made that easy?

Speaking from a practical perspective: the most likely result from an indisputable supernatural event where either God speaks directly to all of humanity or where God's Messanger speaks directly to all of humanity would be mass hysteria.

Theoretically if / when the world and its inhabitants are ready to work cooperatively with the natural and the supernatural, then the indisputable event or Messanger would be accepted and recognized when it is sincere and comes from God.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Speaking from a practical perspective: the most likely result from an indisputable supernatural event where either God speaks directly to all of humanity or where God's Messanger speaks directly to all of humanity would be mass hysteria.

Theoretically if / when the world and its inhabitants are ready to work cooperatively with the natural and the supernatural, then the indisputable event or Messanger would be accepted and recognized when it is sincere and comes from God.

Large portions of humanity have always accepted God’s Messengers over time but always with free will to reject Them. God wants us to worship Him voluntarily out of love not because of an appearance that causes mass hysteria.

But in fact there was such an instance when masses accepted the Bab in Iran and there was mass hysteria and still is by the clergy who feared that the Bab’s popularity would win over the entire nation so they executed Him yet still His Faith spread all over the world.

But a mass hysteria event would defeat God’s purpose of wanting us to worship Him out of love not fear and that can only happen if people are attracted to God not so scared that they can not deny Him which in effect would take their free will away because who would reject if God made a huge entrance?

 

[ratiocinator]

Yes I’ve read it. I know there were wars and Israel had enemies who’s main objective was to destroy them completely.

And "god's people" wiped out entire populations sanctioned by their god. You cannot claim (as you did) that "God teaches only love and unity, brotherhood and mercy in the books of all religions", it's simply not true.

 

[ratiocinator]

Also, would He the sincere be distinguished from the insincere if was made that easy?

What has asking people to believe without evidence got to do with sincerity? That separates the overly credulous from the rationally sceptical, not the sincere from the insincere.

 

[loverofhumanity]

And "god's people" wiped out entire populations sanctioned by their god. You cannot claim (as you did) that "God teaches only love and unity, brotherhood and mercy in the books of all religions", it's simply not true.

That’s not the true story. The Israelites were attacked by their enemies for over 500 years with intent to exterminate the Jews.

 

[loverofhumanity]

What has asking people to believe without evidence got to do with sincerity? That separates the overly credulous from the rationally sceptical, not the sincere from the insincere.

Well God could have just made us subservient robots but He wanted us to choose for ourselves not force us to worship Him or obey His laws.

We are completely free to choose our own path without God interfering.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Most scholars agree on the other translation.

So if most scholars agree on something it means they are right? Is there a verse in Quran that says, go with what most scholars tell you?

Yet I still don't see that it matters.

I see it matters extremely. If you think God sent down a Book containing unclear verses, and yet He did not raise a certain people who are firm in knowledge of interpretation, you are basically imagining a God with an incomplete revelation. How could God sent down a Book, and yet leave people in confusion as what is the true interpretations of its unclear verses? You may think that, but would a person who truely believes Quran is the word of God can possibly think that way?

This is sort what you first said that everything is to be taken literally in the Quran if it is God's word, but the Quran says otherwise. You will never know which one is the more correct option.

You misunderstood me, if you think I said everything is literal in the Quran. There are verses which literally true, and there are verses which are symbolically true, but you need a person who God has given Them, knowledge of interpretations. According to traditions the well grounded in knowledge are Muhammad, and His sons after Him.
The reason i brought all these, is, to point out, when it comes to interpretations of unclear verses, a believer needs to investigate and see How Muhammad and His sons interpreted the verse, instead of making something up from his imagination. Otherwise everyone comes up with an interpretation they like, and still no one knows really if that interpretations is true or not, but if everyone was to set asside his own ego, and learn its interpretation from the well grounded in knowledge, then there would be a unity. So, it doea matter!
We can leave it as that, it was nice talking to you!

 

[loverofhumanity]

And "god's people" wiped out entire populations sanctioned by their god. You cannot claim (as you did) that "God teaches only love and unity, brotherhood and mercy in the books of all religions", it's simply not true.

One interesting article I found. The Jews were supposedly attacked after they crossed the Red Sea but was it really a literal crossing?

The crossing of the Red Sea has a spiritual meaning. It was a spiritual journey, through and above the sea of corruption and iniquity of the Pharaoh and his people, or army. By the help of God through Moses, the Israelites were able to cross this sea safely and reach the Promised Land (spiritual state) while Pharaoh and his people were drowned in their own corruption. The Egyptian History recorded even trifling events. Had such a wonderful thing happened as the partings of the physical sea it would also have been recorded. – Daily Lessons Received at ‘Akka, p.

 

[ratiocinator]

That’s not the true story. The Israelites were attacked by their enemies for over 500 years with intent to exterminate the Jews.

So you're saying that that justifies genocide, are you?

1 Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroya]" all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”​

-- 1 Samuel 15:1-3 NIV​

What had the children and infants done, let alone the donkeys?

 

[ratiocinator]

Well God could have just made us subservient robots but He wanted us to choose for ourselves not force us to worship Him or obey His laws.

We are completely free to choose our own path without God interfering.

But, if there is no unambiguous message, with objective supporting evidence of its veracity, we aren't free to make a choice, are we? We are in the dark, surrounded by conflicting messages, all of which look equally unlikely.

Why would a god want worship anyway, it seems terribly insecure and needy...?

 

[dybmh]

Large portions of humanity have always accepted God’s Messengers over time but always with free will to reject Them. God wants us to worship Him voluntarily out of love not because of an appearance that causes mass hysteria.

But in fact there was such an instance when masses accepted the Bab in Iran and there was mass hysteria and still is by the clergy who feared that the Bab’s popularity would win over the entire nation so they executed Him yet still His Faith spread all over the world.

But a mass hysteria event would defeat God’s purpose of wanting us to worship Him out of love not fear and that can only happen if people are attracted to God not so scared that they can not deny Him which in effect would take their free will away because who would reject if God made a huge entrance?

... Very interesting... You have connected free will and faith? If faith exists, free will also exists?

 

[dybmh]

Why would a god want worship anyway, it seems terribly insecure and needy...?

It's a good question, but the answer is not satisfying.

The question why coupled with the word want is a problem when relating to the omnipotent. For us, humans, we want things often for good reasons. But for the Abrahamic God, who can have anything, there is only one reason that answers why does God want. The answer is for pleasure or progress.

Why does God want worship? Because it is somehow pleasurable to God. Pleasure is above and beyond reason.

Examples: Mayo. If you like it, why do you like it? Some people like cold beet soup with sour cream. Why do they like it? It's because it is pleasurable to them. But it doesn't have a logical satisfying reason. The pleasure is beyond reason. Why God wants worship is also above reason.

As a parent, in a way, I always want my kids to come and ask me for help even when they are grown and fully capable. Maybe it's like that.

 

[viole]

If this happened, the concept of faith would not exist. Anyone who did not believe would be judged insane. There would be 1 religion, and that religion would be determined to be fact.

And? That would be cool.

So. The simple answer is: God wants us to have faith.

Faith in what? It is not like there are believers and unbelievers. There are unbelievers and believers in God, Allah, the Great Juju, Shiva, Apollo, Thor, the great invisible trurtle, etc. etc. with totally different theologies and moral precepts.

So, If He smart, He should have realized by now that faith is overrated and incredibly unreliable.

If God wanted to speak directly to Humanity, then God would speak directly to Humanity. But doing so would be a fundamental change in reality rendering the concept of faith in God null and meaningless.

Cool. It is totally useless anyway, for the above mentioned reasons.

disclaimer: all of this is assuming God exists.

Can’t read that. Forgot my spectacles.

Ciao

- viole

 

[InvestigateTruth]

G-d cannot make Himself appear as He has no appearance. He did create a national revelation at Mt. Sinai. Following that, the system is understood slightly differently than you may understand it. Prophets are people who study and prepare themselves for Divine Revelation. Among those people, G-d will select a particularly capable one and give them a message to pass on to the nation. Those who did not receive a message for the nation are also "prophets". The reason prophets are used is because the general population does not prepare themselves for prophecy and so cannot receive a personal revelation. If that were ever to change (and we expect it to during the Messianic era), everybody would be "prophets".



I do not know of any verses off-hand that speak about G-d being on earth. But as a rule, we interpret all references to G-d metaphorically.

In your view, what is the metaphorical interpretation of the coming of the Lord of Hosts? How would that event take place on earth?

 

[dybmh]

@viole

I appreciate everything you said including the humor.

The only question I have is about what you said about believers vs. unbelievers. Was there something I said that was inaccurate or over general about believers and/or unbelievers? My intention was to say, all believers have faith. All religions are beliefs, not proven facts. Did I over-reach in this way?

 

[viole]

@viole

I appreciate everything you said including the humor.

The only question I have is about what you said about believers vs. unbelievers. Was there something I said that was inaccurate or over general about believers and/or unbelievers? My intention was to say, all believers have faith. All religions are beliefs, not proven facts. Did I over-reach in this way?

No.i just question why is faith so important for God if the vast majority will unavoidable lock into believing something completely different from Him.

So, we have two possibilities

1] God does not care if X believes that He is in fact a God that enjoys sacrifice of kids or some other crazy stuff. As long as X has faith

2] There is no God. And that faith thing is just the most obvious rationalization for His silence.

The solution to this simple riddle is left as an exercise to the reader.

Ciao

- viole

 

[dybmh]

No.i just question why is faith so important for God if the vast majority will unavoidable lock into believing something completely different from Him.

So, we have two possibilities

1] God does not care if X believes that He is in fact a God that enjoys sacrifice of kids or some other crazy stuff. As long as X has faith

2] There is no God. And that faith thing is just the most obvious rationalization for His silence.

The solution to this simple riddle is left as an exercise to the reader.

Ciao

- viole

Thank you. By the way, I would appreciate your feedback on my other replies to this thread, if you have time, if they weren't included in your answer(s).

 

[loverofhumanity]

So you're saying that that justifies genocide, are you?

1 Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroya]" all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”​

-- 1 Samuel 15:1-3 NIV​

What had the children and infants done, let alone the donkeys?

So you want to have it both ways to say God doesn’t exist yet when you see a chance to attack God then all of a sudden He does exists. Lol

The books of Samuel were recorded by an unknown author some 2 centuries after the events. They were not a Revelation from God and all indications are they were more like Hadiths that if consistent with the Quran can be considered valid but as this is completely inconsistent with the rest of the content in the Bible I do not believe it is accurate or authentic as it directly goes against the Ten Commandments and that in itself makes the account suspect.

The things in the Bible we can be absolutely sure of being the Words of God and true I firmly believe, are such things as are confirmed and explained by subsequent Messengers of God such as Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

 

[Muffled]

For those who believe that God sent Prophets and Messengers, the Question is why He did not directly make Himself appear on earth and talk to humanity?
I suppose those who believe in Prophets and Messengers would be limited to Jews, Christians, Muslims, Zoroatrians, and Bahais. If I missed anyone else, please include.


If you say, God is invisible or cannot possibly come to earth as a Being, then how do you explain those verses in your Holy Book which explicitly speaks of the Day of Resurrection or the judgement Day, or the Last Day, when the Lord would be on earth?

I believe the answer is that He did come in the person of Jesus.

I believe that might explain why he wouldn't normally do that because there is always the enemy who wishes to kill Him and to thwart that, He would have to hurt people.

 

[Muffled]

If you are a Muslim, or want to explain it based on the verses of Quran, Here are some verses of Quran I quote:


“What can such expect but that God should come down to them overshadowed with clouds”


"And the earth will shine with the light of its Lord..."


“He ordereth all things. He maketh His signs clear, that ye may have firm faith in attaining the presence of your Lord.”


“Let him then who hopeth to attain the presence of his Lord work a righteous work"


These verses clearly denotes of coming God to the earth. If this is a possibility according to the Book, why then God did not do this from old times, instead of sending Messengers?


P.s. My time is limited to give you verse and chapter number, but you can easily google them to verify.

I believe that reminds me of these verses: Acts 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. 10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”