Why can't Lucifer ever be redeemed?

[ensnaturae]

You just tried to explain to me something that you say "can't be explained".
The rules of God are mysterious? God's rules are the laws of physics and they are very mysterious but, still, they can be explained.

God is love? Yes, but the human idea of love is immature and unevolved.

Jesus forgave everyone? Forgiveness does not mean you go back to the same relationship you had before. Forgiveness just means you are no longer angry at the person for what they did. There are still consequences for their actions.

The attitude of "love and light" will be a great thing for humanity, in about a thousand years.

You wrote....."God is love? Yes, but the human idea of love is immature and unevolved"........

You and I are already a billion light years apart, with just those few words. !!! I don't *believe* in Love. I *know* it. Love and light.. is a real time, immensely powerful ...very real..experience. I'm sure that sooner or later someone may write it as an equation, or a theorem, but for now...if you were to do no more than consider the most basic JC story..Love is right there, in front of you. You only need to consider..would YOU do it for an unloving world?.. to feel the power of it...think of giving your life to a world full of the most horrible cruelty, and misery... because of your love? How close could *you* get to bearing the torture? Of every kind. And at last suffer...abandonment and isolation, when you were deepest in pain?
I know it as a life-like vision, I won't forget, at a time of horrible stress. When I thought that there was no love, not in the world or in me..
One tiny part of the mystery of it was that the *story is there, at all!!*. A mans life and death as a permanent reference point. ? and for each person? Including my *self*........how did that come about..!!!!????!!!! No one needs wait a thousand years..love is already clear to see.Then...science? Of course it is astonishing, and of course, barely begun... But science... for the future?
That is not real at all. It is your *faith*.. not your knowledge that says *science can, or will, explain everything"..
But for love itself? Love needs no explanations.
The most solidly based of all science theory and proof...
Is still comparable to a caterpillar contemplating his cabbage-universe. Science is a series of ever ongoing answers, and attempted answers. Sometimes compared to peeling leaves off an onion? Very good...find all the answers you can..if you need them.

,Jesus forgave everyone? Forgiveness does not mean you go back to the same relationship you had before. Forgiveness just means you are no longer angry at the person for what they did. There are still consequences for their actions.

The attitude of "love and light" will be a great thing for humanity, in about a thousand years.

 

[Super Universe]

Haha... wow. You can't even keep track of who you are replying to - I imagine you're just trying to push your narrative out there too fast to even care. With your hollow pronouncements of "the truth", and the straight face you are able to keep as you make them, there are some who will never be able to take you seriously - and you can count me among them.

The quote you posted was my reply to Mestemia. Not sure why you posted it on your post instead of replying to what I said to you. Seems you're the one who is confused.

I can count you among those who will never take me seriously? Good. See ya, wouldn't want to be ya.

 

[Repox]

Lucifer was his name before he was cast down to the earth. His name changed and now is Satan. In the book of Revelation, you find him accusing. You find it also in the book of Job the first chapter. We must understand that Satan has access to the throne of God. He is not cast out of heaven. He is cast out of the throne room of God, but he has access to God, and he does something before God. He accuses us. He hates you "Luciferi Baphomet" just as much as anyone else, why? Because you were made in the image of God and he hates God. He also hates you because God loves you. Satan's mission is to keep you from the real truth about God because he doesnt want you to repent of your sins and accept God's free gift of salvation through Jesus Christ who died for you. He wants your soul to live forever in hell just like him! His desire is to pull you and anyone he can down with him, real nice guy right? He doesnt care about you, and he certainly doesnt want you to be saved from hell. He will do everything in his power to destroy you! Sounds like he's doing a pretty good job so far.

I agree Satan was caste out of heaven. God created the universe as Satan's prison. He will never return to heaven, even though he continues to try to escape from the universe.

 

[Super Universe]

You wrote....."God is love? Yes, but the human idea of love is immature and unevolved"........

You and I are already a billion light years apart, with just those few words. !!! I don't *believe* in Love. I *know* it. Love and light.. is a real time, immensely powerful ...very real..experience. I'm sure that sooner or later someone may write it as an equation, or a theorem, but for now...if you were to do no more than consider the most basic JC story..Love is right there, in front of you. You only need to consider..would YOU do it for an unloving world?.. to feel the power of it...think of giving your life to a world full of the most horrible cruelty, and misery... because of your love? How close could *you* get to bearing the torture? Of every kind. And at last suffer...abandonment and isolation, when you were deepest in pain?
I know it as a life-like vision, I won't forget, at a time of horrible stress. When I thought that there was no love, not in the world or in me..
One tiny part of the mystery of it was that the *story is there, at all!!*. A mans life and death as a permanent reference point. ? and for each person? Including my *self*........how did that come about..!!!!????!!!! No one needs wait a thousand years..love is already clear to see.Then...science? Of course it is astonishing, and of course, barely begun... But science... for the future?
That is not real at all. It is your *faith*.. not your knowledge that says *science can, or will, explain everything"..
But for love itself? Love needs no explanations.
The most solidly based of all science theory and proof...
Is still comparable to a caterpillar contemplating his cabbage-universe. Science is a series of ever ongoing answers, and attempted answers. Sometimes compared to peeling leaves off an onion? Very good...find all the answers you can..if you need them.

You know that love exists? Who doesn't believe that love exists?

Even in the most basic JC story, love is there? So, when He killed the fig tree, that was love? When He tore up the money lenders tables, that was love? When He initially refused to help the woman who's child was possessed or mentally disabled, that was love? When He said "I come to bring the sword", that was love? Jesus was a complicated being, we all are. No one is all good with no bad parts at all.

When you give your life because of love? Jesus had to bestow upon the earth to experience what it was like to be human so that when He finished He could judge who could enter heaven. The door to heaven was not opened until Jesus finished His earthly bestowal. So, He was never going to stay here forever. He did not have to die the way He did though, He chose not to interfere and allow the crucifixion to continue so the angels would develop more respect for Him.

When someone purposely stomps on your toe, that's not love.

 

[Kenny]

Satan is from Tanakh, and is a servant of YHVH. He is not an autonomous evil being.

Christianity made him into an evil being.

Lucifer isn't actually a name found in Tanakh.

Isaiah 14 isn't about Satan. It is about a King of Babylon.

*

Yes... Lucifer is derived from the King of Babylon... but the serpent (Satan) became evil and can be seen throughout the Tanakh and the NT Scriptures. I certainly don't find anywhere where he is still a servant of YHVH

 

[Rapture Era]

I agree Satan was caste out of heaven. God created the universe as Satan's prison. He will never return to heaven, even though he continues to try to escape from the universe.

He is cast out of the throne room of God, but he has access to God in heaven. He doesnt want to escape the universe, he wants to be worshiped like God. Thats why towards the end of the tribulation, he will set himself up in the Temple to be worshiped.

 

[Kenny]

He is cast out of the throne room of God, but he has access to God in heaven. He doesnt want to escape the universe, he wants to be worshiped like God. Thats why towards the end of the tribulation, he will set himself up in the Temple to be worshiped.

Great statement. I have always wondered, after Jesus sanctified the Holy of Holies by presenting his blood, if Satan no longer has access to the Throne. Scripture doesn't say but it is never recorded after the resurrection that he continued to have access.

Just thinking.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

The quote you posted was my reply to Mestemia. Not sure why you posted it on your post instead of replying to what I said to you. Seems you're the one who is confused.

I can count you among those who will never take me seriously? Good. See ya, wouldn't want to be ya.

And in your reply to Mestemia, you specifically stated: "Your Lucifer worship is not a fantasy then?"

I'd like you to point to me where Mestemia ever gave you the impression that he worships Lucifer. Perhaps I am wrong and there is some evidence? I suppose we'll see.

 

[McBell]

I'd like you to point to me where Mestemia ever gave you the impression that he worships Lucifer. Perhaps I am wrong and there is some evidence? I suppose we'll see.

I disagreed.
That is all some people need to level all manner of assumed bull **** at them.

 

[Super Universe]

And in your reply to Mestemia, you specifically stated: "Your Lucifer worship is not a fantasy then?"

I'd like you to point to me where Mestemia ever gave you the impression that he worships Lucifer. Perhaps I am wrong and there is some evidence? I suppose we'll see.

I don't really care whether Mestemia worships Lucifer or Satan or whatever name they give their god. They are the ones who truly have to invent a fantasy because the bible did not give enough information on Lucifer. They think religion represents God and that religious rules are God's rules. So, they assume that Lucifer must represent freedom from all of that.

Lucifer knew that God does not interfere so he thought he might be able to depose Jesus if enough angels took his side but Lucifer didn't free any angels, during the rebellion they still had to go to work for him.

Although slightly abbreviated, here is "The Lucifer Manifesto":

1. God does not exist. Gravity, energy, and personality are inherent in the universe. (There is no way Lucifer would know whether God existed or not since he was created outside of heaven and never visited heaven).

2. Lucifer admitted that Jesus was his creator but he felt that all local systems should be autonomous and not directed by a Jesus. (He thought that by offering local systems autonomy that would gain him more angelic support, which, worked to some degree.)

3. Lucifer disagreed with the divine plan of mortal ascension to heaven since he believed there was no God. He pleaded that ascending mortals should be able to do whatever universal jobs they wanted (in other words, work for him).

God gave you freedom, as much as possible. If anyone has put rules upon you it wasn't God, it was other humans.

 

[Ingledsva]

Yes... Lucifer is derived from the King of Babylon... but the serpent (Satan) became evil and can be seen throughout the Tanakh and the NT Scriptures. I certainly don't find anywhere where he is still a servant of YHVH

Nowhere in Tanakh is Satan acting as an autonomous evil being. Even in the oft touted Job verses, - it is YHVH that points him out and gives permission to test. And Job says YHVH did it.

EDIT - Also, later people that didn't understand what they were reading in Tanakh turned Satan into evil.

*

 

[McBell]

I don't really care whether Mestemia worships Lucifer or Satan or whatever name they give their god. They are the ones who truly have to invent a fantasy because the bible did not give enough information on Lucifer. They think religion represents God and that religious rules are God's rules. So, they assume that Lucifer must represent freedom from all of that.

Lucifer knew that God does not interfere so he thought he might be able to depose Jesus if enough angels took his side but Lucifer didn't free any angels, during the rebellion they still had to go to work for him.

Although slightly abbreviated, here is "The Lucifer Manifesto":

1. God does not exist. Gravity, energy, and personality are inherent in the universe. (There is no way Lucifer would know whether God existed or not since he was created outside of heaven and never visited heaven).

2. Lucifer admitted that Jesus was his creator but he felt that all local systems should be autonomous and not directed by a Jesus. (He thought that be offering local systems autonomy that would gain him more angelic support, which, worked to some degree.)

3. Lucifer disagreed with the divine plan of mortal ascension to heaven since he believed there was no God. He pleaded that ascending mortals should be able to do whatever universal jobs they wanted (in other words, work for him).

God gave you freedom, as much as possible. If anyone has put rules upon you it wasn't God, it was other humans.

Oh goody, more of your fantasy revealed!!

 

[Thief]

An angel fulfilling its intended purpose requires no redeeming.

this implies obedience to God's will

are you sure of that?

 

[Thief]

Lucifer does not need to be redeemed.
Lucifer has always undertaken every duty that God ordered Lucifer to do.
Mankind might need to be frightened of Lucifer, but God certainly is not.
Lucifer is completely loyal..... to God.

not buying it

 

[Thief]

This quote exemplifies what I just said. Satan never wants to be in Heaven with God again.

and the Sons of God gathered to present themselves......
and with them came the devil
so it is written

a confrontation followed

 

[Kenny]

Nowhere in Tanakh is Satan acting as an autonomous evil being. Even in the oft touted Job verses, - it is YHVH that points him out and gives permission to test. And Job says YHVH did it.

EDIT - Also, later people that didn't understand what they were reading in Tanakh turned Satan into evil.

*

I disagree...

His presence in the Garden was not sent by YHVH.
And, yes, He did give leeway to Satan to destroy Job but didn't let him kill Job because Job had not cursed YHVH. BUT, in his evil state, tempted YHVH to do it. Nowhere does it state that Satan was good. As a matter of fact, Satan mean adversary. If YHVH is good, and He is, and Satan is His adversary, then by deduction Satan is evil.

 

[Kenny]

and the Sons of God gathered to present themselves......
and with them came the devil
so it is written

a confrontation followed

I think it happened a long time before the Sons of God gathered.

 

[Ingledsva]

and the Sons of God gathered to present themselves......
and with them came the devil
so it is written

a confrontation followed

I don't agree. Christians make the verses evil.

Job 1:6 Now it fell upon a day, that the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan: 'Whence comest thou?' Then Satan answered the LORD, and said: 'From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.'

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan: 'Hast thou considered My servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a whole-hearted and an upright man, one that feareth God, and shunneth evil?'

This is no more evil then saying -The family of John came before John - and John asked Bob - where did you come from? - Bob answers, wandering around Texas.

In the VERY NEXT verse YHVH says have you (The TESTER) considered Job???

The next verse has Satan surprised that YHVH would do wrong to someone that was faithful and worshipped him.

Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said: 'Doth Job fear God for nought?

YHVH brings the whole ordeal of testing to Job. Satan the tester just carries it out.

And at the end -

Job 40:6 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:

Job 40:7 Gird up thy loins now like a man; I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto Me.

Job 40:8 Wilt thou even make void My judgment? Wilt thou condemn Me, that thou mayest be justified?

Job 42:6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

The writers of this story TELL US YHVH is responsible - with this verse (as well as 40:7-8)

Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

Why does YHVH call it HIS JUDGMENT (40:8)???

Also - why would Job understand and REPENT (42:6 while talking to YHVH) - if it was just an evil Satan doing something to him for no reason other than evil???

*

 

[Ingledsva]

I disagree...

His presence in the Garden was not sent by YHVH.
And, yes, He did give leeway to Satan to destroy Job but didn't let him kill Job because Job had not cursed YHVH. BUT, in his evil state, tempted YHVH to do it. Nowhere does it state that Satan was good. As a matter of fact, Satan mean adversary. If YHVH is good, and He is, and Satan is His adversary, then by deduction Satan is evil.

Nope, again, misunderstanding by later Christians whom (most) never read the whole story.

See my post # 58 above.

YHVH would not call it his JUDGMENT, and Job would not REPENT, - if it was just Satan being evil.

Reread the WHOLE story. Job was proud. He knew his sons did evil, but being proud, thought "HE" could just make sacrifices for them.

*

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Perhaps to show, though God's mercy is great there is a limit. In the beginning man could do whatever they want but eat from the one tree or touch it. In the end God can forgive all sins but chooses to hold one accountable. Or something like that, who knows.

I just don't buy that because that posits that god is holding his flawed creation responsible rather than taking responsibility for making a flawed program.