lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
In the past, the entire population was evil except for Noah and his family. The evil ones were destroyed by water. In the future, the evil ones will be destroyed by fire.
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Why can't Lucifer ever be redeemed?
- Thread starter Spiderman
- Start date
I think the religious ideology needs a scapegoat to justify any atrocity it has committed or may commit in the future. The destruction of souls for example. How could you justify that if they could be redeemed?
And don't buy into the freewill BS, are you going to let your kid play in the street just to preserve the sanctity of freewill? What kind of parent are you?
Spiderman
Veteran Member
Beautiful post!
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
That's a frightening thing to think. Removing people from society for the good of others, because that person wouldn't kneel before god? It's a wonderful assumption to think that those who don't believe as you do should be removed from society for the good of the others.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Well, if you live in New York you must obey the laws of New York. If you live in London, you must obey the laws of London. There are jails to remove people from society who do not obey the laws. Why would God be any different? If you want to live in His kingdom you must obey His laws. It has nothing to do with kneeling before Him. If you refuse to obey the laws you will be removed from that society.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
I jaywalk in front of cops, on a rather regular basis, and nobody around here even notices or cares. It is technically illegal, but here it has zero enforcement.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Good for you. God is not so lenient.
MansFriend
Let's champion the rights of all individuals!
I understand the Bible has a scope of time allotted to what it calls "a heavens and an earth" or a single Creation.
This period of time has a beginning and and ending, but when one Creation is over there is a new Creation.
So, you have this pattern of Creation cycles that repeat over and over and over that are patterned similarly.
I have found that the language context of the Bible deems one single cycle of Creation as an "eternity".
So, if the language of the Bible says "they can never be saved" the context is "within this Creation".
Therefore, when a soul is condemned to hell, they remain there for that cycle of Creation.
But, once they get into a new cycle of Creation, it will have another Savior again and they get another chance.
Each cycle of Creation is patterned after the previous cycles and so we see in our world's history other Saviors.
The thing about Lucifer is he receives an even deeper level of condemnation that is referred to as Perdition.
This is a level of punishment that is also said to extent into the "world to come", which means the following cycle.
So, apparently after that next cycle of Creation, the door back to redemption is opened up again in a yet future cycle.
The thing that seems to me is the language of the Bible makes things seem final, but in truth it isn't actually absolute.
The term "eternal" actually pertains to a period of time that is only 7 thousand years, which is how long a single cycle is.
I derive this by looking at the Creation Account itself as the blueprint of one cycle of Creation.
Each "Day" of the Creation pertains to a 1,000 year period of our time.
You have to decode the symbolic language of each "Day" so that you know what is "scheduled" for that Day or millennia.
For example, here we see Adam or Michael actually comes at the end of one cycle and he lays the foundation for the new heavens and the new earth. The Book of Revelation is actually talking about the special period of time when one cycle of Creation is ending and a new cycle of Creation is being birthed. This is the Alpha/Omega period of time. That is why it is prophesied that Michael comes in the end-times and has a War in Heaven, because He is establishing the Father's Kingdom, as Jesus prophesied would eventually come to pass, but the adversary fights Him and even overcomes Him for a time. Thus, we start to see how the end-times are actually showing us how the Father dukes it out with the adversary and finally, when all is said and done, comes out on top and Lucifer (Cain) is cast down from all of the positions of authority that he had usurped in his bid to try and wrest control of the Father's Kingdom from his Father Adam. Then, because Father Adam obtains the victory, it is Adam who rules and reigns during the new Creation's Day 1 when the day is divided from the night. This gives you and understanding of deciphering the "end" from the "beginning" and how one heavens and earth pass away and a new heavens and earth are brought to pass. Then, the whole work of Creation goes yet another round and another "eternity" is participated in by all souls. Also, Adam's responsibility is, with the assistance of His Bride Eve, who is the Church, to "name" all of the "creatures". This is symbolic to say that Adam and Eve do genealogy work and bring up every soul who has ever lived, in that cycle now closing, and they give the "new name" to each soul. This assigns to each person the "measure of their creation' for the next cycle. This is like Adam judging all souls and assigning them to some level of spiritual glory in the next cycle of Creation. Adam, as the Father, ruling and reigning during the Millennium, is who judges and organizes the next cycle of Creation.
So, because Lucifer (aka Cain) attempted to fight against the Father and take away the Father's Kingdom from His Only Begotten Son Abel, by way of murdering Abel, there is a special degree of punishment to be affixed to all those who participated in Cain's actions. The very thing Cain did against Abel was reversed and put upon Cain when Abel was vindicated and redeemed. This is why Cain forfeits his blessings for the entire next cycle of Creation. But, after that whole next cycle is over, it does become possible for those condemned to Perdition to receive a pathway back to redemption. This however becomes a very controversial and technical thing to get into that I'm not really sure I am comfortable disclosing.
Cateau
Giovanni Pico & Della Barba Devotee
....how can a book do the thinking "for you." Isnt that an oxymoron? I cant argue about god without using the Bible now can I...
i explained the quotes as they were not evident to you in answering your questions concerning god, and since i am not he I merely used the scripture to estimate a feasible translation of what I was showing you.
McBell
mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Why not?
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
The bible is chock full of people who should've died the instant they sinned, but they didn't. Many are even considered heroes and, in Islam, prophets. Maury Povich and Jerry Springer could base entire seasons on King David ALONE. Why is he a hero? Why is Jacob a hero, who tricks various family members into getting unearned perks? Why is Moses a hero? None of these people are seriously struck down for their sins, which number many. Add to that the notion of forgiveness/grace, and you get a God who is remarkably arbitrary in enforcement.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
People are not struck down for their sins. Many people change their lives and go on to do good things. Everyone will die physically but those who are willing to follow God's laws will not die spiritually.
Cateau
Giovanni Pico & Della Barba Devotee
........Why do you think. I can't explain the explainations of the explained .....thats just too much work in itself, at this point either you see it or you don't.
McBell
mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Sounds like a cop out to me.
So basically what you are saying is that your only source of information for EVERYTHING concerning god is the Bible, right?
That has to be right.
I mean, if you could know something about god outside from the Bible then you would not be required to use the Bible to argue something about god.
One wonders why you would so limit your limitless deity?
RESOLUTION
Active Member
What redemption would Lucifer expect?
If, you threw yourself off a bridge you would find the real Tyrant is Satan.
Lucifer didn't set you free he just kept you shackles tight around you so good is he as deceiving you cannot see your own worst enemy.
It's all about justification.
Humans will rely on faith and obedience to survive the future world (which we call heaven). God demonstrated through Adam that humans will fall if lack faith in God and lack obedience. Angels are made to be servants of God. They are made to know God all the times, thus the only factor affects their survival in the future world is their obedience.
Humans since Adam are given the chance to be redeemed because, unlike the angels, they are put to a world alienated from God. Thus they are provided a chance to return to God, by the measurement of their obedience and faith. Humans are hopeless in terms of the measurement by obedience when put to a realm whether the influence of Satan dominates. That's why it is said that each and every human is captive by Satan. Thus humans are impossible of being redeemed (as they will certainly fail the measurement of obedience in this alienated world). God thus made a self-sacrifice (i.e., the crucifixion of Christ) to justify that humans can be redeemed even when failed the measurement of obedience. They can be redeemed by the measurement of faith.
Angels:
- Born to know God to a rather full extent,and born to be servants of God
- Born inside God's realm
- Obedience is the only factor affecting their survivability in the future world (Heaven)
Humans:
- Born in an alienated world which is under the deep influence of Satan
- Obedience and faith are factors affecting their survivability in the future world
Humans are given the chance to return to God by the measure of their faith (and obedience) by the justification done through the crucifixion of Jesus Christ).
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Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
When I followed god, I was miserable, depressed, and attempted suicide. Life was suffering, and I yearned for its end. That horrible darkness I was trapped in was cast out by the true Light Bearer, Lucifer.
What is just in declaring "follow me and my rules during your short life or suffer for eternity?"
Cateau
Giovanni Pico & Della Barba Devotee
Of course I can give personal examples to argue but it all comes back to biblical principles. It's like trying to argue about morality without using a law book against crimes which point out when and where rules are applied for punishments of different acts of misconduct, the "why" is what the argument of morality would be, which you can't answer without knowing the rule book. You'd be endlessly going back and forth without a way to point out truth or error and no way of knowing if there's a different explination for a specific passage. I can say that, sure to steal is bad but not if you are starving. Now there's nothing in that argument that I could use in a court of law but the Bible does say it's a lesser evil to steal out of hunger than greed, although still a sin and so a terrible thing but at least He understands it. I personally also agree there are lesser evils "necessary evils" but we must repent daily for our offenses so that we dont lose face, so to speak, with Him.