Why aren't you a communist?

[Revoltingest]

I doubt those communes are self-sufficient nor detached from the capitalist market.

Their integration with capitalism is perfect.
This allows voluntary communism to be viable.
Thus, anyone who advocates it can give it a try.

 

[Shad]

Their integration with capitalism is perfect.
This allows voluntary communism to be viable.
Thus, anyone who advocates it can give it a try.

Yup. Although I doubt many will.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yup. Although I doubt many will.

Well, communism is more attractive as an idea, than as a practice.

 

[Shad]

Well, communism is more attractive as an idea, than as a practice.

It the "redistribution" part which is the attraction not the work.

 

[Shantanu]

Alright, it's time for another fringe ideology: communism!
It has had its ups and its downs over the years. (That's a mild way of putting it. )
So, why aren't you a communist?

There are various types of Police States but one which deprives humans of their liberty to express themselves and chose their ways of life freely are amongst the worst that can be thought of.

 

[Valjean]

There are various types of Police States but one which deprives humans of their liberty to express themselves and chose their ways of life freely are amongst the worst that can be thought of.

And what does this have to do with communism?

 

[Shantanu]

And what does this have to do with communism?

Communism means living as a commune, not independently and freely. It is enforced as a Police State but has different designs. I consider the UK to be a type of communism.

 

[Valjean]

Communism means living as a commune, not independently and freely. It is enforced as a Police State but has different designs. I consider the UK to be a type of communism.

But no-one is independent, save the occasional hermit. Even hunter-gatherers depend on other band members, and, in today's complex, populous world, we're less independent than ever.
I don't grow my own food, weave my own clothes, generate my own electricity or refine my own gasoline. Societies are, by definition, socialist, to varying degrees.

As for freedom, there's no reason why a member/owner of a co-op -- Mondragon, for example -- is any less free than your average, 'capitalist' factory worker. There's no reason why a co-operative society need be a police state. In fact, I see more surveillance, more police and other enforcement agents, in more places, today, than I did back in the more socialist sixties. For that matter, there also seems to be fewer jobs and less social mobility. Is this freedom?

 

[Shantanu]

But no-one is independent, save the occasional hermit. Even hunter-gatherers depend on other band members, and, in today's complex, populous world, we're less independent than ever.
I don't grow my own food, weave my own clothes, generate my own electricity or refine my own gasoline. Societies are, by definition, socialist, to varying degrees.

As for freedom, there's no reason why a member/owner of a co-op -- Mondragon, for example -- is any less free than your average, 'capitalist' factory worker. There's no reason why a co-operative society need be a police state. In fact, I see more surveillance, more police and other enforcement agents, in more places, today, than I did back in the more socialist sixties. For that matter, there also seems to be fewer jobs and less social mobility. Is this freedom?

Even in today's complex and populous world, countries exist where if a person needs something he pays for it, it is not provided for so it is not socialism where the State provides all the basic necessities as in the UK's welfare state that is managed with policing controls to curb independent thought and so there is no room for religion.

 

[Valjean]

Even in today's complex and populous world, countries exist where if a person needs something he pays for it, it is not provided for so it is not socialism where the State provides all the basic necessities as in the UK's welfare state that is managed with policing controls to curb independent thought and so there is no room for religion.

Interesting characterisation of the UK's police-welfare state. Strikes me as a bit Orwellian, don't you think?
You seem to imagine a socialist state as some kind of police controlled, authoritarian beehive society.

"The State" is us. We own "The State."We provide 'all the basic necessities' -- amongst ourselves.
A socialist, co-op economy need not be money-free. There is no reason a socialist or communist citizen shouldn't go out and pay for what he wants, just as people do today.
If the people want Walmart or Marks and Spencer, the people can have them. The people are the state, after all. They are the owners, they make the rules, they can organize things any way they want.

Police states, it seems to me, are more associated with -- and needed -- in authoritarian, right-wing, hierarchical societies of owners and workers, where people are exploited, discontent and resentful.

 

[Shantanu]

Interesting characterisation of the UK's police-welfare state. Strikes me as a bit Orwellian, don't you think?
You seem to imagine a socialist state as some kind of police controlled, authoritarian beehive society.

"The State" is us. We own "The State."We provide 'all the basic necessities' -- amongst ourselves.
A socialist, co-op economy need not be money-free. There is no reason a socialist or communist citizen shouldn't go out and pay for what he wants, just as people do today.
If the people want Walmart or Marks and Spencer, the people can have them. The people are the state, after all. They are the owners, they make the rules, they can organize things any way they want.

Police states, it seems to me, are more associated with -- and needed -- in authoritarian, right-wing, hierarchical societies of owners and workers, where people are exploited, discontent and resentful.

If the State is rich enough the people can be coerced into following the rules of the State like morons to live as a commune.

 

[Valjean]

If the State is rich enough the people can be coerced into following the rules of the State like morons to live as a commune.

Coerced by whom? Themselves? into following their own rules?

It's the capitalist states, where people are exploited by the owner classes, that have need of coercion.
If everyone's an owner.....?

 

[Shantanu]

Coerced by whom?

A Secret Establishment.

 

[Valjean]

A Secret Establishment.

THOSE ARE BANNED IN OUR SOCIALIST REPUBLIC!!!!

 

[Shantanu]

THOSE ARE BANNED IN OUR SOCIALIST REPUBLIC!!!!

A monarchial system of government cannot ever be a socialist republic, but it can through brainwashing the public in Christian values implement a communal State with policing to enforce it.