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Why aren't you a communist?

Wu Wei

ursus senum severiorum and ex-Bisy Backson
Well, President Xi Jinping has been cracking down really hard on corruption lately. I'm kind of impressed, to be honest.

The cracking down on corruption is mostly impressive. However some (not all) of that "Corruption" he is cracking down on is an excuse to justify getting rid of political threats and rivals. Some of it is legitimate, some of it is rather selective... basically what is OK for the goose is not ok for the gander in Xi's China. (Goose being political friends, gander being political threats)

Understand the laws and punishments for breaking those laws are not exactly written in stone in China. They can be changed by the president at anytime if he feels it is necessary..... or convenient.
 

mindlight

See in the dark
Alright, it's time for another fringe ideology: communism!
It has had its ups and its downs over the years. (That's a mild way of putting it. :eek:)
So, why aren't you a communist?

It does not work. Anyone who saw Eastern Europe before the wall came down had a direct experience of its poverty and oppression.


Also cause atheism is no platform for an ideology.

Also cause the alternatives work better.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
It does not work. Anyone who saw Eastern Europe before the wall came down had a direct experience of its poverty and oppression.


Also cause atheism is no platform for an ideology.

Also cause the alternatives work better.
Atheism isn't a good platform for anything.
 

Duke_Leto

Active Member
Great governmental control is inherent in a totally communist system.
It's necessary to prevent free economic association. This makes it
highly vulnerable to totalitarianism.
Contrast that with capitalism...less control is needed because anyone who
wants an alternative system is free to embrace it...just not coerce anyone
else to adopt it. Communes? Sure...go ahead. But the survival rate is low.

I think this is your main misunderstanding: communism is opposed to the state; capitalism can't exist apart from the state.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I think this is your main misunderstanding: communism is opposed to the state; capitalism can't exist apart from the state.
Communists don't even understand the basics of communism.
They'll say it's about "the people". It's all supposed to be cooperative.
But that cannot be.
People are naturally diverse in goals, values, skills, capabilities, ambition,
morals, ethics, dedication, etc. Without a state to enforce a prohibition
against free economic association (eg, charging for services, selling goods,
hiring workers, raising capital, enjoying the fruits), some people will do that.
Others who survive on the typical benefits of socialism or communism will
want the same, & will migrate towards the greener pastures....or at least
they would without some powerful entity to enforce the commie order.
Otherwise, a little economic liberty here or there would balloon into
rampant capitalism
 

Duke_Leto

Active Member
Communists don't even understand the basics of communism.
They'll say it's about "the people". It's all supposed to be cooperative.
But that cannot be.
People are naturally diverse in goals, values, skills, capabilities, ambition,
morals, ethics, dedication, etc. Without a state to enforce a prohibition
against free economic association (eg, charging for services, selling goods,
hiring workers, raising capital, enjoying the fruits), some people will do that.
Others who survive on the typical benefits of socialism or communism will
want the same, & will migrate towards the greener pastures....or at least
they would without some powerful entity to enforce the commie order.
Otherwise, a little economic liberty here or there would balloon into
rampant capitalism

A state isn't needed to enforce any sort of prohibition against the activities you mentioned -- without one, those activities would be impossible. What can one person offer 500 others to make them build an apartment complex for him? Currency, something worthless without a state to legislate that taxes be paid with it? Other goods? Where would he get those goods? If, as currently happens, wealthy individuals buy empty houses as an investment, what do you imagine prohibits those who can't currently afford housing from simply living in them?

These 'economic liberties' you speak of are thefts sanctioned by the state. Property, and its attendants -- employment, capital, and the state -- are predicated on an imbalance of power. Look how quickly the U.S. has rushed to overthrow governments, perform assassinations, and bomb innocent people the moment its private investors' wealth is threatened to see how deeply capital and the state are entangled. You can't separate the two.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
A state isn't needed to enforce any sort of prohibition against the activities you mentioned -- without one, those activities would be impossible. What can one person offer 500 others to make them build an apartment complex for him? Currency, something worthless without a state to legislate that taxes be paid with it? Other goods? Where would he get those goods? If, as currently happens, wealthy individuals buy empty houses as an investment, what do you imagine prohibits those who can't currently afford housing from simply living in them?
1) A state is necessary if a society intends to prohibit free economic association,
thereby enforcing socialism.
History bears examples of socialism existing only in oppressive states, without
examples to the contrary. So my claim is supported both theoretically & empirically.
2) Currency in one form or another exists in all states.
Thus it's available for free economic commerce.
3) Even without currency, contracts can be negotiated with shares of proceeds
based upon contribution of labor or goods. I've seen & done such deals.
4) People can create goods, which then become available for barter or sale.
These 'economic liberties' you speak of are thefts sanctioned by the state. Property, and its attendants -- employment, capital, and the state -- are predicated on an imbalance of power. Look how quickly the U.S. has rushed to overthrow governments, perform assassinations, and bomb innocent people the moment its private investors' wealth is threatened to see how deeply capital and the state are entangled. You can't separate the two.
Crimes against others aren't essential to economic liberty.
But socialist/communist countries are just as capable of stealing
from others for economic gain, eg, the PRC stealing Tibet.
 

Duke_Leto

Active Member
1) A state is necessary if a society intends to prohibit free economic association,
thereby enforcing socialism.
History bears examples of socialism existing only in oppressive states, without
examples to the contrary. So my claim is supported both theoretically & empirically.
2) Currency in one form or another exists in all states.
Thus it's available for free economic commerce.
3) Even without currency, contracts can be negotiated with shares of proceeds
based upon contribution of labor or goods. I've seen & done such deals.
4) People can create goods, which then become available for barter or sale.

Crimes against others aren't essential to economic liberty.
But socialist/communist countries are just as capable of stealing
from others for economic gain, eg, the PRC stealing Tibet.

At the risk of beating a dead horse, the PRC and other “communist”’ states aren’t communist in anything but the name. The revolution in the U.S.S.R was the only “real” revolution, I think, in that it had any appreciable socialist element in the beginning, but it turned out pretty badly. The rest used the term essentially to gather popular support. The U.S. in turn didn’t care about the use of the term; all that mattered was that “communist” states were allied with the U.S.S.R. and threatened U.S. interests. And conflating the authoritarian regimes of such states with the socialist and labor movements in the U.S. is obviously beneficial to the government.

As for currency — Again, it doesn’t really exist independently of states. States levy taxes, then legislate that taxes must be paid in the currencies they issue, and so those currencies become pervasive. In societies without states, exchanges are typically managed through debt.

And, again, as for contracts — putting aside the question of how they’d be enforced, you couldn’t really have contracts allowing for accumulation of capital; you wouldn’t have much to trade in the first place when you can’t claim possession of a field you can’t personally tend, a house you don’t personally live in, etc.
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
At the risk of beating a dead horse, the PRC and other “communist”’ states aren’t communist in anything but the name.
The real risk here is that some wag will bring up the "No True Communist" joke.
All real world attempts at socialism & communism are such disasters that
apologists won't accept these countries as examples of what they claim to be.

See....I told you that some jerk would bring it up.
The revolution in the U.S.S.R was the only “real” revolution, I think, in that it had any appreciable socialist element in the beginning, but it turned out pretty badly. The rest used the term essentially to gather popular support. The U.S. in turn didn’t care about the use of the term; all that mattered was that “communist” states were allied with the U.S.S.R. and threatened U.S. interests. And conflating the authoritarian regimes of such states with the socialist and labor movements in the U.S. is obviously beneficial to the government.
I don't think I'm conflating anything here, except for socialism
& communism for seeing a common system response, ie, an
oppressive government to prevent free economic association.
The differences between those systems are minor & theoretical.
As for currency — Again, it doesn’t really exist independently of states.
History is rife with privately issued currency, eg, bank
notes, promissory notes, & now cryptocurrencies.

But this is a red herring. States always form, as we observe by looking
across the globe. Sure, there are temporary stateless countries eg,
Somalia, Palestine. But the power vacuum tends to be filled, eg,
pre-Americastan.) So there isn't a question of whether there will or
won't be a state....it's about the kind of structures the state will have,
political, economic, religious, social. All have a method of resource
allocation which uses a monetary system.
States levy taxes, then legislate that taxes must be paid in the currencies they issue, and so those currencies become pervasive. In societies without states, exchanges are typically managed through debt.

And, again, as for contracts — putting aside the question of how they’d be enforced, you couldn’t really have contracts allowing for accumulation of capital; you wouldn’t have much to trade in the first place when you can’t claim possession of a field you can’t personally tend, a house you don’t personally live in, etc.
In the absence of a state, eg, Americastanian territories, contract
enforcement was handled privately, eg, Pinkerton, individually.
But again, all states have mechanism to enforce contractual relationships.
The difference is that under socialism/communism, there are no real
private economic relationships...there is only what the state imposes.
And this requires more governmental power than does capitalism.
This can be observed by comparing various capitalist & socialist regimes.
 

Slink

New Member
Communism the way Marx himself described it certainly sounds like it would lead to the utopian society. One where everyone is free of oppression and can spend their time developing themselves and exploring their own interests. The main problem I see with it, is that of corruption. Every state that has tried to implement communism has been plagued by mismanagement. In practice it always turns into an authoritarian rule where a small group exploits the masses.

I view capitalism as a lesser of evils. Despite the flaws it may have, it has allowed for a lot of improvements in terms of general comfort and expanding our freedom. I think that any productive society needs the kind of clear incentive that a capitalist system brings with it.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Alright, it's time for another fringe ideology: communism!
It has had its ups and its downs over the years. (That's a mild way of putting it. :eek:)
So, why aren't you a communist?

I have a brain and use it. That is all one needs to figure out communism is bust. At the core communism holds a distorted view of humanity thus the society it attempts to create will always fail or turn into tyranny. After all given complete freedom how many people will work dirty jobs? How many will be a plumber by choice without incentives of wages? How many people will become artists, regardless of skill, when all their needs are provided for?
 
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osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Anything where people dictate your life, living, and ideology is discgusting.

Infringing on others ideologies with your own ideology is also sick.

However i do think that everyone owes it to pay into a system for the common good of society. The system should be owned by the individuals who pay into it. The system should build and maintain roads, bridges, promote science institutions, energy and technology research, and keep homeless people off the streets in a basic living environment. The system itself should never interfere with private, individual rights we currently do have.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Communism the way Marx himself described it certainly sounds like it would lead to the utopian society. One where everyone is free of oppression and can spend their time developing themselves and exploring their own interests. The main problem I see with it, is that of corruption. Every state that has tried to implement communism has been plagued by mismanagement. In practice it always turns into an authoritarian rule where a small group exploits the masses.

I view capitalism as a lesser of evils. Despite the flaws it may have, it has allowed for a lot of improvements in terms of general comfort and expanding our freedom. I think that any productive society needs the kind of clear incentive that a capitalist system brings with it.

I think it depends on which form of capitalism you're talking about. If it's first-world capitalism, such as in the U.S. or other Western countries, then one would see the improvements in terms of general comfort and freedom (although I see no indication of freedom actually "expanding"). As Molotov put it, in describing the capitalist world, there were the "smart and dangerous imperialists" and then there were the "fools," which represent the vast majority of the capitalist world as manifested in third-world nations.

So, capitalism may seem the lesser of two evils when comparing the U.S. to the Soviet Union (although even that can be debated), but when comparing the typical Soviet Bloc country with capitalist bastions such as Guatemala, Nigeria, Congo, Bangladesh and other nations like that, then there's really no comparison at all.

The fear now is that today's capitalists are so reckless and irresponsible that they'll eventually turn the U.S. into some kind of "banana republic" and reduce our overall standard of living to that of Bangladesh.
 

Duke_Leto

Active Member
Anything where people dictate your life, living, and ideology is discgusting.

Infringing on others ideologies with your own ideology is also sick.

So, you're a communist then?

However i do think that everyone owes it to pay into a system for the common good of society. The system should be owned by the individuals who pay into it. The system should build and maintain roads, bridges, promote science institutions, energy and technology research, and keep homeless people off the streets in a basic living environment.

Oh, you are then! :D
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
So, you're a communist then?



Oh, you are then! :D


Im fine with capitalism. I just think every citizen should take ownership of society's problems. I dont want to restrict how much a person makes in income. Only thing is, those who benefit from society are also its caretakers.

I reject the idea that everyone should make the same living wage. I reject state owned factors of production. I only expect that people who complain about social problems, do their fair share to help fix society problems.

I do not think allowing the homeless to crap in the streets is acceptable.

Its only fair that each citizen pay social necessities common to everyone.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Because, it hasn't worked since John Smith. But, besides that there is no government utilizing the system that doesn't have a laundry list of basic human rights violations. I'm sure someone will come out of the woodwork here to say, "But, they aren't EXACTLY communism blah blah blah", despite the fact that they are the ONLY incarnations of it. :D If it turns to **** every time somehow then there is a fault and the complexities of that would take threads to address, but it's obviously never working out for anyone.
Communism tends to work best in, well, communes as opposed to governments. Communism is alive and well, mostly in certain religious communities.
 
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